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Do you support the loss of american sovereignty?

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posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 09:29 PM
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Originally posted by LostSailor
You are confusing the Bill of Rights with the rest of the Constitution. The Bill of Rights deals with the rights of the people. Yes, Article 5 of the constitution allows government to add new amendments. A very difficult thing to do though.

Oops my bad, on this one you are right.




posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 10:15 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
By the fine forefathers of this nation, whom wanted, if you’ll excuse the expression to give a shout out to what the majority of the framers believed was their creator. At no time did any deity take part in the framing.

So you admit that "as the forefathers of this nation believed" was their creator, gave you your rights?



Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk
Nope atheist.

I see. So it is you that have given this "debate" a disingenuous aspect. Thanks.

[edit on 4/5/2007 by Infoholic]



posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by Infoholic
So you admit that "as the forefathers of this nation believed" was their creator, gave you your rights?

No I said no such thing, they gave him an honorable mention that’s it.


I see. So it is you that have given this "debate" a disingenuous aspect. Thanks.


Really? And how have you come to that conclusion? My argument this entire time has been that the constitution was conceived by man, my not believing a God reinforces that fact not negate it.



posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 10:46 PM
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For how long do you wish to play this little run around game?

I've simply asked, who gave you your rights? And you've replied as to that it was the forefathers, which I proved you wrong with legally credible evidence as shown here (for the 3rd or 4th time):

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
source


It wasn't the forefathers... it was God that granted your rights. The being that created you.

You believe the forefathers gave you your rights, however the forefathers are telling you in black and white that it wasn't them... it was God (or a God).

Make up your mind, for Christ's sake, and provide something credible to back your "theory".



posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 11:04 PM
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Originally posted by Infoholic
Christ's sake, and provide something credible to back your "theory".


Historical influences
Several of the ideas in the Constitution were new, and a large number of ideas were drawn from the literature of Republicanism in the United States, from the experiences of the 13 states, and from the British experience with mixed government. The most important influence from the European continent was from Montesquieu, who emphasized the need to have balanced forces pushing against each other to prevent tyranny. (This in itself reflects the influence of Polybius' second century BC treatise on the checks and balances of the constitution of the Roman Republic). John Locke is known to be a mild influence, and the due process clause of the United States Constitution was partly based on common law stretching back to the Magna Carta of 1215. Furthermore, Cyrus the Greats’ Charter of Human Rights had an astounding influence on western democracy, especially the Founding Fathers of America. As early nation builders, they were required to read two historical manuals on statesmanship and decide which system they wanted to implement. One was Machiavelli's 'The Prince’, an Italian philosopher who famously advocated a government based on fear and deceit, and who said “it is better to be feared than loved”. In stark contrast to Machiavelli, was ‘Cyropaedia’, meaning the Teachings of Cyrus, the Iranian King, which stated that government should be benevolent and that “it is better to be loved than feared”, the exact opposite of Machiavelli’s advocation. Today, there are half dozen copies of Cyropaedia found at the library of Congress in Washington, D.C., with one of many personal copies belonging to Thomas Jefferson. Judging by the U.S. Bill of Rights, there can be little doubt whose path of framers, of American’s constitution chose to follow.
en.wikipedia.org...


You either buy it or you don’t. the for man are by man.



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 12:45 AM
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What theory are you trying to prove with that again?

Anyway, I explained the concept of sovereignty. Locke's principles are some of the most important principles of the United States. Whether or not aspects of law are borrowed is irrelevant. The important thing is that you see rights as something that exist whether or not a government infringes on them. When it does, the government is at fault. Thankfully, these were clearly outlined in the Constitution.



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by Mr Mxyztplk

Historical influences
Several of the ideas in the Constitution were new, and a large number of ideas were drawn from the literature of Republicanism in the United States, from the experiences of the 13 states, and from the British experience with mixed government. ......
en.wikipedia.org...


You either buy it or you don’t. the for man are by man.

Ahh, nice try, but to no prevail. Influences on ideas and/or writing technique bears absolutely zero weight on answering my question.

Mixing ideas of history's achievements and failures in no way shape or form credibly prove who gave you your rights.

Please humor me and try again.






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