Moderators Are Not Above The Terms & Conditions

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


The thread title is the name of the cd I made a long time ago. It's just a name, not profanity. I know a fair amount of Frank Zappa song titles that are worse...

Fair is fair, they don't want another facebook on their hands. In Britain, loadsa people started boycotting them for their Fascist groups. They have to hold tight control against these extremities that we all know in a row all to often gets said. Facebook have lost a lot, including credibility over this.

[edit on 16-10-2007 by redled]

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Well, there's no way for me (or other ATS-ers) to know who became a mod when.

All any of us can judge by is, what we see. All I saw, was a thread, and then it "says" the OP is a moderator. again, just going by what I see.

That is my point.

I've got to go with "whatever" then as you've said nothing about this.

There's plenty of "muscle" applied by mods, when they see a post they don't like. And it's always a huge issue if a regular ATS-er asks questions.

"Muscle"? Interesting term. "Regular ATS'er" another interesting term, I happen to be one of those members. I ask again, what's your point? Ask around, I interact with everyone, I only moderate when I have to. My "muscle" must be weak.

Just look at the tone you're taking with me.

It's about you? Maybe that has something to do with my tone. It's about the site, not you or me.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


Members would not be banned for that on a first or even second offense. Im sorry it simply does not happen. That type of mistake would get looked at and the member in question possibly warned etc. You don't get a perma ban on a first offence of this nature. yes there are those offences that would warrent that but a mistake like this esp. one time would be dealt with and moved on.

But I am as curious as Intrepid, you seem to have some undelying issue here and I would love to hear more about it if you would care to enlighten me on it?

This is a hotbutton issue for me.

I've been threatened with being banned before, because a mod didn't like my posts. NOT because I violated some rule, at least none that was ever pointed out to me.

The first time, I argued with another member, whose argument was logically flawed. She was insulted that I pointed it out, and I got a warn for it, and a "temporary ban" for 24 hours. I never used any profanity or insults. just logic. But then, I'm not as popular with mods as some are.

Second, I used to post frequently on the political top secret board; but again, I had a run in with a mod who told me they would ban me if I ever posted in the politics section again.

Third, a "supermod" once posted a thread with a misleading title, a violation of the T&C. When hamburglar and I pointed it out, we both received u2u's telling us to drop the issue. I dropped it, and hamburglar asked about it in a thread very similar to this one. And got banned.

So yeah. I've got questions.


Tonight, I read this thread, and then I go to the BTS "most recent posts" section. And there I see profanity (which a mod says is "not profanity, just a title.") I suppose I lept to the conclusion that the person who wrote the thread was a "mod," because his first post has a little cartouche that says helmutt is just that. To me, not knowing the difference, it seemed like a . . . contradiction . . . of this whole thread. that was my point.

I am really interested to know when hot# is profanity, and when it's not. A regular ATS member can't tell a difference. Maybe only mods can? Coz when I type that word, all that appears is a pound-sign in my post.

.

reply to post by Majic



I respectfully suggest that as long as certain members here are allowed to violate the T&Cs on a regular basis it will make it hard for other members to know what is expected.

One member in particular seems to be given a very wide latitude in making knowingly inaccurate and misleading posts and when others point this out, they are the ones who are warned.

For the T&C to be taken seriously, they must be applied consistently, imo.

Well you sure got some answers already Majic..Oddly enough both mods I talked about have posted here and didn't deny what I said..



[edit on 17-10-2007 by Project_Silo]

Bill Of Attainder, Or Ex Post Facto Law?

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
(Edit to add: the first post on thread was in JULY)

Indeed. July of 2005, long before Hellmutt became a mod.**

If you really have to go back over two years for examples, I think you're reaching somewhat. I can think of several more recent examples that were far more egregious -- and actually involved members who were moderators at the time.

Nonetheless, the title of that thread has been changed in response to your complaint, as we would for any such example.

As for the other issues, you're welcome to submit complaints for each of them, but if they don't involve T&C violations by mods, there's little reason to do so.

The Point Of This Thread

I think some members have completely missed the point of this thread, which is that moderators are not above the terms & conditions.

That doesn't mean mods don't violate them, because mods aren't any more perfect than anyone else, and the history of ATS is rife with notorious examples of drama involving moderator misconduct.

What matters is not what happened years, months or weeks ago, because we can't change the past, but what's going on now.

Ironically enough, that's the point of this thread: to explain the most effective way to handle problems with mods, so we can solve problems now.

Back On Topic: Handling Problems With Mods

I can understand the need to vent, but to the extent public grousing obscures and gets in the way of solving real problems, it is a disservice to our community.

I started this thread seven months ago to ask that members who observe violations of the T&C by moderators report them to us by submitting complaints.

That's the topic of this thread. Specific complaints don't belong here, and this was never intended to be an open call for generic gripes about mods in general, harassing the staff or dredging up old drama.

So let's not.

Please, work with us on this.







**Edited to concede: Although he did update it recently, so I can agree that it should have been changed sooner. Hellmutt has explained that he really didn't think it was a problem in that case, and in light of the nature of the thread (there are many songs and music-related posts on BTS that are at odds with the profanity restrictions), the fact that it had been allowed to keep that name without anyone objecting for over two years (this was the first complaint) and the fact that English is not his first language, I think he can be forgiven.

We routinely remove non-abusive profanity from posts without red-flags or bans, so this is not inconsistent.

[edit on 10/17/2007 by Majic]

Sigh !

mods are people too - and have opinions

that said - the " defence " that ` he [ points ] did it too ", or was guilt of some other offence is not a viable legal defence - or is it a defence against violations of the T&C

YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN CONDUCT - THE MODS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIERS

is that clear ?

as previously pointed out - mods have been banned too , the staff roster changes constantly - most leave on excellent terms and thier passing is mourned - or they continue to be valuable members [ valhal and benevolant heretic ] spring to mind

member bannings are rarely spoken of - there have only been public discussions on 2 that i reccall - [ picklewalsh and killtown ]

mod bannings when they occur are handled even more delicately - i can recall only one banned staff member - and i dont know why it was done - just that it occurred

also the T&C is an evolving document in my experience , when it is applied " post facto " punishments and such are greatly reduced - if applied at all - the offending material is simply removed - and the participents in the thread quietly reminded of the current T&C

bottom line . IMHO is that ATS is a private site - when you sign up and log in - you agree to the T&C and consent to be governed by the staff while you are here

if that disagrees with you - why the hell do you bother loging in ? there are lots of other sites - or you could even set one up yourself and run it " your way "

i dunno where i heard it first - but the most apt analogy is that :

ATS is simon grey`s " cyber sitting room " you are here by invitation , and insulting his freinds and peeing on the carpet is unacceptable behaviour - one would [ i hope ] to act that way in his real house - why do you think its acceptable on his website ?

fin .

And to think, all this time I thought it was ok to pee on the carpet. Sorry Simon. I can't control myself when I finish off the keg.. I'll go clean it up in a minute.

Onto the topic now....

The mods do the best with what they're given. We all need to keep in mind that they're people too, and that they can and will make mistakes. It's a part of who we are as human beings. We learn by making said mistakes. We need to be respectful of those that make them, as it could one day be us in that very position. And we all know what it's like to be in the public spotlight for something bad. Not a pleasant experience.

So with that my fellow mods, Supermods, and Admins, I bid you all a fair adieu.

Oh, and Simon, I'm going after a Rug Doctor. You can put the cleaning bill on my ATS tab.

TheBorg

I know that occasionally I feel the Mods are abusing their authority, but that's usually when it's a heated issue, and as has been said before, and undoubtably will be again, they're only human. Another reason is that they are usually not on my side .

Upon reflection, they're not being abusive at all.

For the most part they do a helluva job.

Still no response to my post ehh majic,FredT,Intrepid.

You guys prove it yourself,you shouldn't need anymore proof.You ignore it when it's on the forums and you ignore it when it's in your inbox.

And who cares if someone said or did something wrong just a short while before they became a mod....You still let them be a mod after the fact,that's worse IMO..

reply to post by Project_Silo


Yes, I recall the episode, It was about drugs and I said where do you draw the line on drug talk? I further stated that pedophilia was against the T&C should we allow NAMBLA to post here and then you got all bent out of shape. What's your point? Both are against the T&C.

reply to post by intrepid

Originally posted by intrepid
Wow Unit, you really take this internet stuff seriously. I remember a mod that was on my ass about quoting, one liners, etc when I first got here and he just made me a better netizen.

Is that why you're always on my ass, intrepid?

One can only hope..

Being on the same page is all but impossible but being in the same book is manageable and for the most part Mods are in the same book.

However, I have received warnings from newly ordained Mods that just didn't know me and one from an owner that really had no idea of what I was implying.

I think Springer knows me best of all and often allows me my dry sense to throw a joke in here or there but there are Mods that just don't get it. Thankfully I have not really had many run in's although with my outspoken and often fearless demeanor I'm not sure why. Maybe it's the way I present my arguments. It's not that I am challenging but that I have strong beliefs.

I have seen only one occasion where a Mod went way over the line and was actually the OP of the thread. I reported him to Springer and let it go. I don't know what happened and can't even remember the Mods name now but I would hope he was talked to about it.

The bottom line is:

Have I seen Mods do things that were not Kosher? Sure!

Do I think this is a big problem? No!

Do I get pissed when I get a rare warning: Of course!

Do I think Mods are operating from the same general book? Yes!

And most importantly, are Mods human and therefore not exempt from making mistakes? Absolutely Not! OK, well maybe a little...LOL!!!!

Do I look like a complete tool with this asking and answering my own questions? What do you think?

I will of course deny all the nice things I said next time I get a warning.



[edit on 18-10-2007 by jbondo]

I'm exempt, right?

I mean, it's me.

Originally posted by Majic
It's not uncommon to see suggestions in some posts that ATS/BTS/AP moderators enjoy some sort of special privilege because they're mods and can therefore get away with things that other members cannot.

And here comes the message from The State...

I wish to lay this notion to rest, because it's not true.

EVIDENCE please....You should know here on ATS nobody will believe you unless you have a thousand witnesses and a few hundred pages of text from neutral sources.... oh, and chuck in a YouTube link too, a good docu goes down well.

All members of the staff, including moderators, super moderators and administrators, have agreed -- like every other member by virtue of our participation here -- to honor the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use.

NO ONE is exempt from the T&C. :shk:

If at any time you should see any staff member behave in a manner contrary to the terms & conditions, please let us know immediately by submitting a Complaint/Suggestion.

Not being funny or anything Majic, but you only need to link the thread ONCE . ONCE is enough, any more than ONCE, and people might get the impression you are taking the piss. So to summarize: ONCE is enough.

We take all such reports very seriously and will not tolerate misconduct on the part of any staff member.

Well, thank goodness. You dispelled a totally unfounded notion with that line... Good job people here don't question statements from Authority now, isn't it.

I know it's easy on a conspiracy site to assume that moderators can get away with being abusive because they're mods,

That problem is true of many sites, and is not exclusive to this patch of the Net.

but actually the opposite is true.

Can you prove that? You know, showing people things rather than telling them is always a better method of convincing. Not taking the mick or anything, just pointing out where your propaganda efforts fall flat, is all.

If any of us should give you the slightest impression otherwise, we want to hear about it.

Cool! Do you guys have like an Internal Affairs Divison or something?

Anything less would be unacceptable.

Can I quote you on... oh wait, I just did

Originally posted by Terran Blue
Cool! Do you guys have like an Internal Affairs Divison or something?

Of course, Internal Affairs of Moderators Dedicated to Upholding Members Business (IAMDUMB). I'm the chief member of this organization.

Seriously, there's such a diverse group of people moderating this site that it's impossible for one point of view to have control over what goes on. Shoot, I even have one of the other mods listed as my foe. *Shakes fist at foe*

reply to post by Terran Blue


one question ,

what evidence would you accept ?

it has been opined at various times that ATS is controled by the CIA , FBI , NSA - heck almost every ` alphabet soup agency

that ATS is cointelpro

that mods are biased , innept , corrupt , a nepotistic clique

that ATS " censors " controvertial topics

that ATS

some of these claims are even mutually exclusive

but all fall into the basic fallacy of demanding that ATS " proove " that the claim is unfounded

say what ? ???????????????????

yup , every one of them shifts the burden of resonsibility to demand that ATS provides evidence that thiey are NOT guilty of the assanine charges

formal logic 101 should be mandatory , in adition to curtesy is mandatory

first - what is your evidence that ATS is guilty of any of the charges ? bearing in mind that burden is on the accusor - we have NOT slipped into a parralel dimension where the ` code naploleone ` judicial system is the norm , have we ?

and second - what evidence would you accept as evidence of innocence - cos there is a lot of poo flinging - but no one even registers that one of it sticks to the teflon coated sides of ATS they just accept the filthy fingers of the poo flinger as " proof " that ATS is guilty

is critical thinking dead , or have the goal posts been moved

..................... again ?

Originally posted by dbates

Of course, Internal Affairs of Moderators Dedicated to Upholding Members Business (IAMDUMB). I'm the chief member of this organization.

i have suspected this for a while - and why i am not a staff member , nor am i quallified to become one

i believe that i am uniquly quallified to become a lay member of your august organisation

where do i send my CV ?