America Mirroring Russia

Well rock it shows you know nothing of history, the British Empire ended with countries gaining their independance from us without majaor wars yes their were minor skirmishes but on the whole it was peacfull handovers.

You make the wrong assumption that America will be in a position to fight, it will not be, the US will fall due to its foreign policy, financial strangulation and internal strife, maybe I should have said the US to go the way of the Romans.

Actually you lost ina series of wars with the Unite States, the final battle being the war of 1812 when you never could invade us again.. consistant wars with France as well. I never said the Super Power would win a war in its down fall... only that it would use war as a means to try and sustain its self.

IMO the true official end of the British empire was the American Civil War.. when Europe saw the most terrifiy, deadliest war in human history unfold they knew then that America had the industrial power, with a new concentrated central government and the will power to make war efficiently.. that we had finally surpassed millita militaries.. Had we split and disinigrated Europe would have picked us apart.

Magic. The thing to remember is "your observations", meaning your "unprofessional" opinion. Which is fine. I've come to expect these sorta views from a conspiracy site... Speculation about americas downfall is a popular subject on here. But come on. when will it collapse?

We have had Terrorism and War, Oil Spikes, Massive natural disasters such as hurricane katrina which was the largest natural disaster the US has been struck by in the last several decades etc and the list goes on. So when.... just when will the US collapse?

Or maybe you think America will be surpassed by china and later india? Well that probably wont happen in this lifetime. We hear through the news and other media outlets about how the US is falling behind other countries... These same ppl who are so quick to jump the gun on these things dont take into account that the US has been ahead of the composite average of OECD countries by about the same margin for the last 30 years. The US economic growth rate continues to be higher than the average for OECD nations.... China will surpass us? How? Through the communist government that restricts the chinese ppl from being more free? China will either become a democracy by 2015 or it will suffer from slow growth not much faster then that of the United States. (china will be where america was in 1960 in the year 2010) India is even further down on the totem pole in these regards.. India's per capita GDP is just $700 a year, a number which, by American standards, seems scarcely higher than zero. 8% annual GDP growth for the next 30 years will still only bring prosperity in India to where Mexico is today... So they wont surpass the US in yours or my lifetime. People will just have to learn to accept american supremacy well into the 21st century and beyond...

Also, I find it interesting that a foreigner thinks he knows more about my country and its politics then I, an american.. Have you ever been to the continental US, and If so where did you visit and what was the reason?

this is how I see it magic.. You cant stand that america is the richest, most powerful nation on earth.. You disguise it by just trying to come off as an "overly concerned outsider, whos looking in". Personally I think your view is biased. It has no backbone to its claim, other then your worthless unprofessional opinion. So quit pussy footing around and come out and say it.. You hate america. you are an anti america. Just look at your "arrogant american thread" you have here on ATS. In that thread anti americanism just radiates off of you. You and agit8 sound eerily familiar. Perhaps your one in the same? Funny how you change your tone in this thread while bashing america all the while "acting" concerned (kissing ass).. PFFT Im calling your bluff out on this one. So stop playing to the crowd and own up to your anti americanism. The sooner the better.

Semper, Xphiles and Investor, this thread has nothing to do with the EU or anything else, my comments are based on observations of what is happening to the US both internally and abroad.

And why is that? the EU is worse off in these terms then the US currently is. Why dont you write a thread about the fast decline of europe from the world stage? Why is the "decline" of america from the world stage so much more appealing for you to write about then say Europe, which, as stated by me and others, is really the one in decline? I find it very hypocritical of you, thats all..

[edit on 063131p://5903pm by semperfoo]

Semper I'm sure the phrase I hate America may be sweetness to your ears but I'm afraid you wont here it from me, and no I have yet to visit America wifey and I are toying with the idea this year.

Your point of why do I not talk about the EU well its just a case of America is a more interesting patient. Since the civil war no great catastrophy has hit America, on the great scale of things Katrina, 9/11 etc. are small apples to much larger issues.

Those who control America know its on its uppers thats why you have PNAC, basically a charter for war to protect the US from going under, war is good for business is it not. But war is not a sustainable business and is usually short lived.

When will America fall who know's I'm not a prothet, but the die has already been cast tso its just a question of when.

Also your trying to goad me with fairly weak insults is funny, ridicule is the last resort of the scoundrel as they say.

More of your asshole opinion. It means nothing.

Also your trying to goad me with fairly weak insults is funny, ridicule is the last resort of the scoundrel as they say.

Ahh yes. The last line of defense for the defenseless.

Its kinda like your "weak" attempts to try and prove that the US is on its last footing.

First of all, I'd like to question the judgements of certain posters of this thread. Whilst I don't agree with magicmushroom's analysis that the US is going the same way as Russia did, I think there are some cases of extreme double standards where individuals are claiming he can't make these sorts of comments about the US "because he's not American" (as if that somehow makes his view invalid, which it doesn't) whereas the same individuals (who are American, not European) can make threads/posts with their views about European nations and they believe them to be completely valid. Gotta learn to roll with the punches, guys - thick skin is an essential part of being able to debate successfully. I'm not going to get into an immature debate about "My country is better than yours and it could kick your ass" - I have better ways to waste my life.

Onto the issues of the thread, anyway.

I don't think the US is going anywhere from the top of the perch for at least the next fifty years, probably more - it will eventually (obviously... no superpower in history has stayed in the sun forever), but not yet. I wouldn't put any bets on since the future is so unpredictable.

The US has managed to recover from the Wall Street Crash and the depression that caused through the 1930s, successfully geared its economy to the Second World War and the Cold War, the oil shocks in the 1970s and once again managed to change after the USSR collapsed. It's been pretty resilient so far.

Its defence budget too is astronomical - the US spends more on its defence than the rest of the world combined ($518billion as of 2005, according to the CIA World Factbook). And that's not including funding for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Its power projection capabilities are second to none. I know defence is far from everything, but it's certainly one way to stay afloat.

It has a large number of allies - Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, a number of South American states, Israel, South Korea.. the list goes on. Compare this to China... does it have any solid allies? Not really. Even North Korea has begun to get unruly (see the nuclear test back in October last year) and its relationship with Russia is one of convenience.

Russia, too, is politically isolated. The former Soviet states and Eastern Europe are desperate to remain free of Russian influence, and it is seen as a bit of a bully (cutting off fuel supply to the Ukraine, for example, or the constant threats to Georgia). It, again, is pretty isolated. Allies are very important in global politics (as the US has shown consistently, and as the present US government understands) and isolated nations rarely stay powerful for long.

[edit on 15/3/07 by Ste2652]

Ste some good points but how long do you think the US is going to have those friends if it starts the next world war either by accident or design.

The US Goverment does not control America, those that do can pack up and move any time they see fit taking the Country's assets with them.

As far as America's power projection is concerned it exists on a dozen carriers and the good will of the countries you mentioned.

If Israel leads the US into a nuke war over the ME I think you will see a big change of heart.

Can America afford to fight all these wars or will it financialy bleed to death, impaled on the ME.

I think the US has realised that, despite its power, it can't charge around attacking people it doesn't like. Again, it does care about international support (which it obviously cares about). Evidence? The Americans sat down with Iran in Baghdad earlier this month and talked about its future. It's not fantastically earth-shattering news, but it's a start.

With regards to Israel, I don't think US support is unconditional. The American government won't let itself be dragged into a messy war in the Middle East (think Iraq but much, much worse) if it can help it.

Atta boy ste2652.

This is what I wrote in a separate thread. So for the sake of brevity Im going to post what I wrote in that thread. Blame it on laziness. Plus its friday I got # to do! Enjoy.

Marg lets look at the facts shall we. Part of the argument is that we have completely lost our manufacturing infrastructer. Well check this out...

The index of the industrial production is up 30% over the past 10 years, its up 81% over the past 20 years.

Then we're told that china, japan and other countrys are stealing all of our high tech, well guess what marg? the index of production of high tech is up 735% over the past 10 years. its up 7000% over the past 20 years.

Then we're told that all of our jobs are being outsourced.... Well marg, guess what... Civilian employment in this country (which is at a record high) increased by 17.6 million over the last 10years, and 34.7 million over the past 20 years. And then finally, real GDP is up 35% over the last 10 years, and 83% over the last 20 years. ..

So its safe to say I dont see the damage that you speak of marg. Especially from free trade which is what protection--isolationist like lou dobbs have a problem with. I do see alot of benefits to the United States from free trade though.

And our nations deficit.. Like I already pointed out is shrinking marg. The budget deficit now stands at about 1.4 percent of the nation's GDP, well below the 2.3 percent that's been the norm since 1970's. And in 2008, the US deficit as percentage of GDP is projected to be at 0.7%.. I see a strong rapidly expanding economy marg...

Competition has never hurt this country marg. Thats all china presents. Is competition. Competition that we are currently blowing away..

Originally posted by Rockpuck
IMO the true official end of the British empire was the American Civil War.. when Europe saw the most terrifiy, deadliest war in human history unfold they knew then that America had the industrial power, with a new concentrated central government and the will power to make war efficiently.. that we had finally surpassed millita militaries.. Had we split and disinigrated Europe would have picked us apart.

Rockpuck, this is just simply not true. The British Empire was at its height in the late 1800's, the Victorian era. They had colonies all over the world and it was at its pinnacle of power and influence under Victoria in the later part of the 19th century.

I wonder how many of you folks that have such strong opinions have ever been to Russia or more importantly, the USSR when it was Communist? How many of you read anything else than mainstream media? Our govt has been doing things behind our backs, even passing bills in Congress in the middle of the night, when many reps weren't even there to vote.

I spent quite a bit of time in the old USSR back in 1977. The people had a very poor standard of living, everything went to the military and there was vast corruption among the politicos at the top, who owned most of the wealth. More than anything else, corruption may well have been the most important factor in the downfall of the USSR. Now, Google some terms:
"PNAC" - these people wrote our official foreign policy paper. It states directly that we will be building up our military might in the next 20 years (never minid that we are already the strongest nation when it comes to military and weaponry); it also states that we will invade any country we think it's in our interest to invade. That is exactly what the USSR's policies were.

Next, go to "blackboxvoting.org". Bev Harris personally investigated the 2004 election fraud in Ohio and elsewhere. What she found was extremely incriminating - so much so that there have been at least 2 criminal prosecutions of vote fraud as a result of her investigations.

Now think about how much the average American's standard of living has deteriorated since the '60's and '70's. Families that used to be able to survive on one income and that could afford to buy a home and send their kids to college, now must work 2 jobs, they can't afford to buy a home and they can't send their kids to college.

So, my point is this: though there are some ways that the U.S. is different from the former USSR, there are MANY, MANY things that are spookily the same. They are: extensive corruption in govt.; members of govt that don't govern, they just want to build their own personal fortune; a greatly lowered standard of living; the average family living rather marginally, making ends meet but nothing more; the writ of habeas corpus was done away with in legislation last Oct.; media that doesn't really report or investigate, theyjust spread propaganda and don't tell Americans the truth; extreme nationalism; citizens spying program; KGB - legislation has just started taking steps in having the NSA be able to have arrest powers and to be able to spy on citizens domestically - this in essence, means we now have a KGB.

We're not quite where the Soviet Union was under Communism, but I have been saying for the last 10 years that we are getting there and very rapidly now. We are losing rights at a massive rate, there is a much greater disparity between rich and poor than there ever was and it continues to grow.

So, before you jump all over MagickMushroom, do some research first. There is a great deal going on in our country that is kept from the average citizen. (Just like in USSR).

Forestlady thank you for your good comments, the patriotic American types on this thread seem to have a habit of quoting from the so called official sources which are in fact the usual Goverment lie and propaganda machine. Again because they cannot deal with rational logical thought they resort to insults.

If they could just lift the veil of blindness they we see whats really going on.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Forestlady thank you for your good comments, the patriotic American types on this thread seem to have a habit of quoting from the so called official sources which are in fact the usual Goverment lie and propaganda machine. Again because they cannot deal with rational logical thought they resort to insults.

If they could just lift the veil of blindness they we see whats really going on.

Exactly. I think some here in the U.S. are fearful about what's happening, perhaps without even udnerstanding why, they just feel that something is not right; but instead of dealing with it, they get angry and want to deny that anything is wrong.
The first thing that stood out to me was the propaganda in the news. For a long time now, but especially in the last 6 years, there aren't any investigative journalists in the MSM. The news folks take their cue from the White House, who actually vet alot of what is passed off as "news" before its printed, changing it to make the govt look better. And with so much propaganda, if you only read/watch TV from mainstream sources, you will never get even one fourth of the real news. And that's where alot of the problem lies. We Americans are taught that we are the "good guys", we're not taught the true history of America. Instead, we follow our leaders blindly and anyone who points out that somethings wrong gets insulted, put down or dismissed.
MM, you might want to read "A People's History of the U.S." by Howard Zinn, a professor at Princeton IIRC. It's a real eye-opener and it's extremely well-researched. I think you'd like it.

Originally posted by forestlady
Rockpuck, this is just simply not true. The British Empire was at its height in the late 1800's, the Victorian era. They had colonies all over the world and it was at its pinnacle of power and influence under Victoria in the later part of the 19th century.

You're absolutely right - if anything, the British Empire only got stronger after Britain decided not to get involved with the internal affairs US. This is the British Empire by 1921, over a century after the War of 1812 - much bigger than it was a hundred years earlier.

Some very interesting points in your post with regards to the issue of the thread too, forestlady. I still think the US has some way to go before it starts to decline (or at least declines significantly enough to no longer be the lone superpower) as obviously successive administrations will continue to work to hold America's place in the world. The Bush administration has perhaps been an eye-opener... military might alone isn't good enough to keep you on top in the post-Cold War world. I'm confident the US will adapt its strategy to this, though the speed at which it does so will be a factor in determining how long the US has at centre stage. But there are so many other issues to consider, it's impossible to say exactly when this will happen.

Ste2652, thanks for the map. Britain must have controlled, what, about
a third of the planet? I think it was during this period that the phrase "the sun never sets on the British Empire."
Our pres. Bush is right now, preparing to join Canada, the U.S. and Mexico into one business entity, just like the EU. Except not one American will be voting on it, it's just being arranged. Under this plan, America will be supporting Mexico, pouring lots of money into it. Americans iwll be paying for Mexico's social security as well. This is while of course, our own social security is fragile. But most Americans don't know about it or refuse to believe it. But you can find proof all over the internet. I think this is going to be a very bad thing for the U.S. and will take a huge economic chunk from it. The U.S. has even been selling off its highways to foreign companies, who then charge large tolls for the use of these highways. Then you have people like Cheney, who still has lots of stock in Halliburton, making decisions about going to war in Iraq and somehow the bulk of contracts go to Halliburton - no conflict of interest there. This shows how corrupt our govt has become, just like the Soviet Union. After awhile there was no money because it was being spent on the military and it went into the pockets of corrupts politicians. Just like what's going on here in the U.S. now.

These are all indicators that America is not doing as well as it once did.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Actually you lost ina series of wars with the Unite States, the final battle being the war of 1812 when you never could invade us again.. consistant wars with France as well. I never said the Super Power would win a war in its down fall... only that it would use war as a means to try and sustain its self.

IMO the true official end of the British empire was the American Civil War.. when Europe saw the most terrifiy, deadliest war in human history unfold they knew then that America had the industrial power, with a new concentrated central government and the will power to make war efficiently.. that we had finally surpassed millita militaries.. Had we split and disinigrated Europe would have picked us apart.

Lost my edit poo!! Rock c'mon man you can do better than that, you make us out to be your enemy when all were doing is watching America crash in slow motion.

[edit on 18-3-2007 by carslake]

[edit on 18-3-2007 by carslake]