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posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 12:12 PM
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Freemasonry teaches its members what is necessary to gaining admission into heaven:
quote:
You were presented a lambskin, or white leather apron, because the lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. The lambskin, therefore, was to remind you of that purity fo life and conduct which is so essentially necessary to your gaining admission into the celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.
Blue Lodge Text Book, Grand Lodge of Mississippi, 1978, p13

necessary to your gaining admission into the celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.

Freemasonry says that purity of life and conduct is what is essential to gain entry into heaven. The Scriptures reveal that there is no one who has led a pure life. In fact, from God's perspective, there is no one who does good, not even one. The Scriptures reveal that what is essentially necessary to gaining entry into heaven is faith in Jesus Christ; man can't make it on his own.

Freemasonry takes a dim view of Jesus. They speak in lodge of salvation, yet never mention the Son of God by name. In fact, Freemasonry often goes out of its way to exclude Jesus Christ. For example, consider the following from the ritual for a Lodge of Sorrow:

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory.
Blue Lodge Text Book, Grand Lodge of Mississippi, 1978, pp 69-70

The bottom line is that Freemasonry has no use for Jesus Christ.

Freemasonry is another of man's attempts to save himself.

Masons will say things like, I would say that the passage was left out for the reason of not offending any brothers of other faiths Larry, just as a prayer would not be finished in the name of Allah, Vishnu, Dionysis or any other man made made theological concoction. Remember now , my opinion is one of a Mason who is a Deist, not a christian.

As a Christian, I worry a whole lot more about offending Jesus than I do about offending man.

As a deist,I'm sure that you see leaving Jesus out of the lodge as practical and expedient, as evidenced The problem, however, is that Jesus made it pretty clear that such non-offensiveness for expediency's sake is simply not allowed of Christians.

The Name of Jesus is a two-edged sword. That sword is the very sword that slices apart the divisions you seek to avoid by leaving Jesus's name out of the lodge.

From a deist perspective, I suppose there is no reason to worry about Jesus' name either way.

But from a Christian perspective, I simply do NOT have the liberty to enter into ANYTHING where I must walk or talk without Christ

is well supported by the passage from Hebrews 4:12




posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol
Yeah Hall never qouted anything about Lucifer in the Lost Keys. “When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onwards and upwards he must prove his ability to properly apply (this) energy.”



And yet AGAIN you lie and twist everybody else's words. I didn't say anything about "mentioning" Lucifer, and neither did you. You said Hall talked about WORSHIPING Lucifer, which he certainly DIDN'T.

How are you able to sit at your computer with your pants constantly on fire?


I fully understand your dilemma.


The only "dilemma" I have is wondering why you chose ATS for your pulpit. This isn't a religious or Christian website, and as mentioned before, nobody around here really seems to care about Jimmy Swaggart wannabees.



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol


But from a Christian perspective, I simply do NOT have the liberty to enter into ANYTHING where I must walk or talk without Christ


This is exactly what I'm talking about. I mean, who the hell cares anyway?
Who asked you to enter ANYTHING? Or about your "liberty"?



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 01:01 PM
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My pants are not on fire. I believe you will find those areas where we have determined Freemasonry to be incompatible with the Christian faith, to be pretty much along the lines of accurate Christian apologetics. We examine Masonic ritual and show it to be inconsistent with the teachings of God's Written Word. We contend this to be quite characteristic of being a Christian.

“When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onwards and upwards he must prove his ability to properly apply (this) energy.”

Hall is indeed talking about worshipping Lucifer. When the masons learns the proper application and the mystery of his craft. The energies of Lucifer are in his hands.
Your pants are indeed on fire Masonic Light.
the issue isn’t whether or not the racist views of others justifies Masonry’s racism; rather, it’s proof positive of the Craft’s hypocrisy. Freemasonry claims to make good men better; it claims look only at the inner qualifications of a man and not his outward appearances; it claims to establish a worldwide Brotherhood of Man under the Fatherhood of God. But it’s racist practices of the past, continuing as they do into the present, show that all of those self-proclaimed stands are just PR slogans. Had Masonry been internalizing it’s propaganda and living up to its claims, it would have been at the forefront of the Civil Rights movement and would have been characterized by mixed-race lodges years ago. But that’s not what happened. Masonry does not change society; it merely reflects it as it evolves.

“Whereas, the Congress of the United States, by enactment of the 1969 Tax Reform Act recognized that Freemasonry is characterized by and possessed of all those attributes that make and distinguish non-sectarian religious organizations, educational organizations and charitable organizations and that the Grand Lodge and Particular Lodges of regular Freemasonry are entitled to all the rights, privileges and immunities provided for and granted to such organizations, and … (the GL) does hereby proclaim and publish that Freemasonry is a non-sectarian religious organization, … .” (Code of the GL of Florida, pg. 4)

The religious nature of the lodge is attested to by a wide variety of Masonic documents; however, they do continue to deny being a religion, which I believe is the point you were trying to make. We do not agree with that point, coming to the conclusion that Masonic doctrine confirms that it can be classified as a religion.

I think the truth is more ominous: Masonry doesn’t want other religious discussions in the lodge that might conflict with its own teachings. Masonic documentation is replete with the truth that Masonic lessons are spiritual in nature, and that the Mason is expected to learn them (review your Mentor’s Manual or Lodge System of Masonic Education if you wish details). Allowing you to discuss your religious beliefs is to allow unwanted competition. This, I believe, is why so many Masons claiming to be Christian silently acquiesce to Masonic lessons which conflict with Christian doctrine. Their mindset is to sit and listen, not proclaim the truth.

You might also examine another facet of your comments: do you really believe there are times when you should not relate to gospel of Jesus Christ to a person? And why do the demands of the Craft in this respect supersede the call to evangelize? Life is an iffy proposition, and you never know where the trapdoor to eternity is. That’s why we eat dessert first and tell the good news of the gospel whenever the opportunity presents itself regardless of what Freemasonry desires.

I think you would be better served to examine Freemasonry from a Biblical perspective and see what it really teaches. I think Freemasonry is poison to the Christian, and should be avoided like the plague it is.



[edit on 10-3-2007 by Andy Warhol]



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 01:17 PM
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During the Entered Apprentice degree, your friend received a lambskin, or white leather, apron. Later on, during the Entered Apprentice Lecture, which basically covers everything, from the time he first was clothed as a candidate, he hear this explanation of the symbolism of that apron:
/i["The Lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. The lambskin is therefore to remind you of that purity of life and rectitude of conduct which is so essentially necessary to your gaining admission to that Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides."]('Nevada Masonic Monitor')


Many will attempt to explain this off as meaning nothing more than teaching the initiate that he should live a good, moral life. However, when Masonry says "which is so essentially necessary to your gaining admission to that Celestial Lodge above", it has stepped beyond the bounds of morality, and into salvific teachings. Telling a person what is necessary for gaining admission into heaven, is telling that person what he must do to be saved. There is no mention whatever of Jesus Christ and acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior. The only "formula" Masonry gives for salvation is good works - doing what makes you a good person. That isn't enough.

is how very little they truly understand about what it is they have become a part of. This is not because they are unintelligent people. It is simply a matter of not taking the necessary time to evaluate Masonry's teachings. That was certainly my own case, and it is the case in every instance of those Christians I know who are former Masons. We left the lodge in order to follow Christ. We knew leaving the lodge would be necessary because of the tenets and teachings of the Craft that are antithetical to the teachings of the Christian faith, particularly in regard to Who God is, and what one must do to be saved. Freemasonry teaches a different god and a different path to heaven.

you have greatly simplified something that is in need of further consideration. First of all, when you are in a Masonic lodge room, and lodge is opened as per ritual, you and those men around you are convened under the auspices of Freemasonry and its tenets and teachings. This would included Masonry's own concept of what it claims its "Great Architect of the Universe" to be:
"Great Architect or Grand or Great Artificer of the Universe (G.A.O.T.U.) are titles under which Freemasonry refers to Deity. A fundamental of Freemasonry is its nonsectarian character. Any man of any religion may offer his devotions to the deity he reveres, under the Masonic title, no matter what name he uses in his mind. Great Architect of the Universe (or any of its variations) is a symbol of Deity as named and worshiped in all religions." ('Officers Manual of Lodge Organization and Operation' - Grand Lodge of Nevada, page 72)

Careful consideration of what Masonry is actually saying here, reveals to us that Masonry's "GAOTU" is anything and/or everything anybody who is a Mason wants it to be. This most certainly suggests a common altar where all gods of all the world's religions reside. Such being the case, a Christian must remind himself of God's words to Moses, "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."

Before you were even allowed to be clothed as a candidate for the Entered Apprentice degree, you were asked a series of questions. This is usually referred to as being the "Interrogatory". This probably took place in the preparation room. In some jurisdictions, this series of questions is asked by the Lodge Secretary, might be asked by somebody else in other jurisdictions. But among the things you had to respond to in the affirmative was, "Do you seriously declare, upon your honor, that you will cheerfully conform to all the ancient usages and established customs of the Fraternity?" In a nutshell, you agreed to conform to the tenets and teachings of the Craft. Among those tenets and teachings, we find this:
"The Lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. The lambskin is therefore to remind you of that purity of life and rectitude of conduct which is so essentially necessary to your gaining admission to that Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides." ('Nevada Masonic Monitor' - First Degree - Entered Apprentice', page 14)
This is a deliberate rejection of the salvific grace in acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and replacing salvation in Him, with works. Acts4:12:
“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Freemasonry's teachings are in conflict with those of God's Written Word. Such conflicts, as Masonry oft times states it, "would cause confusion in the Craft." If you are a part of any organization whereby your interjecting of the Truth of God's Written Word would cause confusion

There are many Masonic scholars who would totally disagree with you on the matter of whether or not Freemasonry is religion or religious. Mackey, Pike, Coil, Hall, just to name a few. You also might want to consider this, from Nevada's monitor:
"The word Lodge is analagous to that of church, referring not so much to the place of meeting as to the persons assembled."('Nevada Masonic Monitor - First Degree - Entered Apprentice', page 15)

Perhaps you should look more into what Masonry is really saying within its ranks, and not simply at what you are instructed to tell others. than to point to the fact that many men go into Freemasonry with their eyes wide shut.

Many masons say things such as Freemasonry is not seeking to destroy the government and create a Freemason world. We simply are group of men bound together by principles and a common goal of making our lives better personally and a members of humankind as a whole.

Also bound together by a syncretistic type of all-encompassing religion, which seems to most certainly be a part of the establishing of a one-world order in which there is purported to be the establishment of a one-world religion. You might want to look into this a little more deeply at other websites where such matters are delved into.

the guise, "fraternity", is as good as any. I have noticed that, even though there are certainly heretical teachings and practices to be found in the appendant bodies you have mentioned, there is nothing quite as brazen in its rejection of the exclusivity of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior as that found in blue lodge. I think most Christian wives, widows, mothers, sisters, or daughters, given total access to what blue lodge actually teaches regarding God and Salvation, would see it is the heresy that it actually is. I am reminded of a remark made by a former Mason quite some time back. One day, after having left Freemasonry, he was letting his 11 or 12 year old daughter look through his monitor. She read just a few short pages into it and asked him, "you mean you actually were involved in something like this?" "Out of the mouths of babes." comes to mind.
Idolatry is very key to the problem with Freemasonry. This has been shown to you. Freemasonry certainly practices idolatry in its very conception of what it says its "Great Architect of the Universe" is. There are quotes in the Kentucky Monitor that point to Masonry saying its "GAOTU" is God; there are quotes from Indiana, admitting that Masonry's "GAOTU" is but a symbol. Praying to, and worshiping, symbols is idolatry. I see no positive fruits from such.
do not judge Masonry's members, per se. We do judge its tenets and teachings, and those who promote them, and we are most certainly to do so. You, yourself, touched upon the issue of false prophets. Those who expound the teachings of Freemasonry regarding God and Salvation are, indeed, false prophets. This is what we expose, in sounding the trump of warning as per Ezekiel 33:1-7:
1 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
2 “Son of man, speak to the sons of your people and say to them, ‘If I bring a sword upon a land, and the people of the land take one man from among them and make him their watchman,
3 and he sees the sword coming upon the land and blows on the trumpet and warns the people,
4 then he who hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, and a sword comes and takes him away, his blood will be on his own head. 5 ‘He heard the sound of the trumpet but did not take warning; his blood will be on himself. But had he taken warning, he would have delivered his life.
6 ‘But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman’s hand.’
7 “Now as for you, son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel; so you will hear a message from My mouth and give them warning from Me.
It isn't the privacy itself that we judge Freemasonry on. It is the fact that within that "privacy", its heretical teachings are imposed upon its members who have agreed to "cheerfully conform" to the same.
The fact that good men have been Masons does not prove the credibility of the Craft. It only proves the fallibility of man. The tenets and teachings of the Craft are heretical, regardless of who its members are.



posted on Mar, 11 2007 @ 07:56 AM
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this thread is finished for me.. I don't even want to read the repeated bullcrap by the masons anymore...

So long...

May peace be upon y'all



[edit on 11-3-2007 by buddhaLight]



posted on Mar, 11 2007 @ 08:03 AM
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Originally posted by buddhaLight
this thread is finished for me.. I don't even want to read the repeated bullcrap by the masons..

So long...

May peace be upon y'all


Ditto on the bullcrap and convoluted nonsense posted by you and those like you.

Peace on you too.



posted on Mar, 11 2007 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol


Hall is indeed talking about worshipping Lucifer.


Then why don't you stop plagiarizing all the anti-Masonic websites, and show us where he said anything about "worshiping" Lucifer?

Note to readers:

Hall was a Theosophist. Theosophists do not believe in the fake "Lucifer" of Christian mythology. Instead, in their writings, they often use the word in its true meaning: symbolic of enlightenment, which takes the ancient roman name for the planet Venus for it's name. "Lucifer" is a Latin word that means "light bearer", and referred to Venus, the brightest star in the night sky. To the Theosophist, it symbolizes spiritual truth.



posted on Mar, 11 2007 @ 03:40 PM
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This is stuff I have written myself Masonic Light. So before you start complaining to moderators that I'am not sighting my sources, so quit the crying.


Note to readers: Hall was a occultist who was a satan worshipper. Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations. Do you want the citation from my bible light?
And no Lucifer is not Venus.
“When later he [the Mason] is given Light, it means really that he is taught the principles of occultism ...”

- Arthur H. Ward, Masonic symbolism and the Mystic Way, p. 149 - 150
www.conspiracyarchive.com...
Manly P. Hall (1901 - 1990) is unequaled, he is the most prolific occult philosopher of all-time. No one in history has even come close to matching his literary output on the subject. "Hall authored over two hundred books on occult subjects ranging from works on astrology, the Bible, Tarot, dreams, mysticism, Eastern and Western philosophy, religion, psychology, symbology, and reincarnation, plus hundreds of essays and a monthly magazine published called the PRS Journal. Over the course of six decades he delivered eight thousand lectures. He spoke for up to two hours extemporaneously, weaving a mesmerizing tapestry of wisdom." 4

Born in Peterborough, Ontario, Canada in 1901, the Hall family moved to the United States in 1904. In 1919, Manly settled in Los Angeles. From an early age he was interested in occult matters and subsequently joined a number of societies: Theosophy, Freemasonry, the Societas Rosecruciana in Civitatibus Foederatis, and the American Federation of Astrologers.

After writing his first book, The Initiates of the Flame, in 1922, Hall began collecting rare books on the mystery schools and esoteric philosophy to begin assembling the text for a magnum opus of occult history. During this time he also travelled extensively in Europe, Asia and Egypt. In the search for "ancient wisdom" texts, Manly Hall's favorite place was the British Museum in London:

“The great center of learning in England is the British Museum, with its miles of bookcases, which caused De Quincy to sit and weep because he could not read all the volumes. In order to gain access to the two principal departments of the museum—one of rare books, and the other of manuscripts—it was necessary to be appropriately sponsored. I had the good fortune of becoming acquainted with General Sir Francis Younghusband, the man who led the British expedition into Tibet in 1903-1904, and camped his army at the foot of the Potola at Lhasa. While dining one day at the Officer’s Club, Sir Francis confided to me that he was known as the conqueror of Tibet, but he regarded this as a dubious honor. The real fact, he said, was that Tibetan religion and philosophy had conquered him. A note from Sir Francis immediately gave me admission to the most valuable parts of the British Museum, and I was able to examine the originals of many of the world’s most priceless books and manuscripts.” 5

In 1923, Hall was ordained a minister by the Los Angeles-based Church of the People, an occult/metaphysical congregation. As the leader of the Church of the People, Hall started a magazine titled " The All Seeing Eye."

By 1928, after 6 years of work and raising $100,000 for the first edition, Manly Hall finally published what has become a valuable classic for those who want to learn about the history of the occult and the "Ancient Wisdom" mystery schools: The Secret Teachings of All Ages. A quarter of a century later, the sheer breadth and scope of the work remains impressive: "pythagorean mathematics; alchemical formulae; Hermetic doctrine; the workings of the Kabala; the geometry of Ancient Egypt; the Native American myths; the uses of cryptograms; an analysis of the Tarot; the symbols of Rosacrucianism; the esotericism of the Shakespearean dramas – these are just a few of Hall’s topics." 6

In 1934, Hall founded the Philosophical Research Society, a research institute modeled on the ancient school of Pythagoras. It was here that he made his home, he held weekly lectures and continued to publish an incredible body of work. In the year of his death, Manly P. Hall was bestowed with the honorary 33º of Scottish Rite Masonry.

Nothing more then a occultist that fits well with the
masonic brotherhood



posted on Mar, 11 2007 @ 05:30 PM
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IN_OUT,

Here is my proof that masonry is a religion. Now show me yours that it's not. I am using your notable writers you were so quick to quote earlier,Albert Pike and Albert Mackey, plus a couple of quotes from Grand Lodge writings.

"This is because Masonry is a religious institution.." (Kentucky Monitor, p. 28)

"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion." (Morals and Dogma, p. 213)

"It is the province of Masonry to teach all truth--not moral truth alone, but political and philosophical, and even religious truth.." (Morals and Dogma, p. 148.)

"The tendency of all true Masonry is towards religion. If it makes any progress, its progress is to that holy end. Look at its ancient landmarks, its sublime ceremonies, its profound symbols and allegories - all inculcating religious doctrines, commanding religious observance, and teaching religious truth, and who can deny that it is eminently a religious institution?" (Ency. of Freemasonry, pg. 728.)

"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion and its teachings are instruction in religion..Here we meet as brethren, to learn to know and love each other..This is the true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures." (Morals and Dogmas, pg. 325.)

"Masonry, then, is indeed, a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it." (Ency. of Freemasonry, pg. 729)

It was the single object of all the ancient rites and mysteries practiced in the very bosom of pagan darkness.. to teach the immortality of the Soul. This is still the great design of the third degree of Masonry. This is the scope and aim of its ritual. The Master Mason represents man, when youth, manhood, old age, and life itself have passed away as fleeting shadows, yet raised from the grave of iniquity, and quickened into another and better existence. By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution. . . .and the conclusion we arrive at is, that youth, properly directed, leads [us to the honorable and virtuous maturity, and that] the life of man, regulated by morality, faith, and justice, will be rewarded at its closing hour by the prospect of eternal bliss. . . The important design of the degree is to symbolize the great doctrines of the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul; and hence it has been remarked by a learned writer of our order, that the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation. Book of Constitutions, Grand Lodge South Carolina, 1965, pages 141-2)

"You were presented a Lambskin or white leather apron. The lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. By the lambskin, therefore, the Mason is reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is essential to his gaining admission to the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides."
('Kentucky Monitor', p. 32)

You keep claiming that masonry isn't a religion. I need proof. Here's your chance to stop the long drawn out posts like you have written (that show no proof that it's not).

True or False please.
1) The GAOTU of Masonry is the God of the Bible.
2) The GAOTU of Masonry is Allah of the Quran/Koran.
3) There is only one “GAOTU” regardless of different names given that being by different religions.
4) The GAOTU of Masonry can be whichever god you profess as your supreme being.
5) The GAOTU of Masonry can be a spiritual being different from a god.
6) The GAOTU of Masonry can be Satan.
7) Jahbulon is a word for the syncretic nature of the god of Masonry.
8) Some prominent Masonic authors have asserted that the GAOTU is far above the narrow, sectarian gods of religions like Christianity and Judaism, inter alia.
9) The V.S.L. in a Masonic Lodge is the Holy Bible.
10) The V.S.L. in a Masonic Lodge is the Quran/Koran.
11) The V.S.L. in a Masonic Lodge is the Book of Mormon.
12) The V.S.L. in a Masonic Lodge can be the holy book of Buddhists.
13) The V.S.L. in a Masonic Lodge can be the book considered holy by Wiccans.
14) There are several denominations of Protestantism which forbid membership to Masons and others in so-called “secret societies.”
15) All branches of Orthodox Christianity forbid membership to Masons and others in so-called “secret societies.”
16) Several prominent evangelists including D.L. Moody, R.A. Torrey, Charles Finney, and Alva McClain took serious issue with Freemasonry and wrote or preached on its distinct incompatibility with Christianity.
17) There are many saviors among the world’s religions or ethnic groupings; Jesus is the savior for Christians, just as Mohammed is the savior for Muslims and Hiram Abiff for Masons.
18) Does Masonry instruct members that there are paths to “the celestial lodge above” other than confession of faith in Jesus Christ?
19) Have some “Christian” Masons joined AAONMS (The Shrine) even though taking an oath to the God of Islam, knowingly or unknowingly? Do such “Christian” Masons find nothing wrong in swearing such an oath to Allah?



posted on Mar, 11 2007 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol
It was the single object of all the ancient rites and mysteries practiced in the very bosom of pagan darkness.. to teach the immortality of the Soul.


Are you speaking of Christianity or Freemasonry here? Both have deep roots in paganism where the promise of immortality was around long before the Christians laid claim to it.

Freemasonry provided a vehicle for uniting men of all religious beliefs together in a common cause. I'll never understand why that simple but elegant philosophy is so abhorrent to some.

I can only assume that we as a species are not ready for it because the 'haters' are winning.



posted on Mar, 11 2007 @ 06:32 PM
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I can only assume that we as a species are not ready for it because the 'haters' are winning.


Unification must come first in Spirit and next in material application. But what do we see manifested from the dead form of Freemasonry today and what form of lasting peace can it truly offer us?

If we are to look deeper than simply creating labels as "haters' it seems that many of these 'haters' simply do NOT accept in the notion of being forced into a blender, or rather havng to support Revolutions as the only correct form of soul-development into unification.

A question may be asked: Do we as people today require borders?

YES!

For every step we take in this so-called 'unification', we must have already taken 3 more in the spiritual development.

Therefore, Andy or anyone else does not have to buy into this unification nonsense. And until this process has occurred spiritually, it our our duty to oppose this Satanic form of false unification.


[edit on 11-3-2007 by sweftl337]



posted on Mar, 11 2007 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by sweftl337
Indeed, unification must come first in Spirit and next in material application. But what do we see manifested from the dead form of Freemasonry today and what form of lasting peace can it truly offer us?


For myself and most of the planet, we cannot "unify" in the Christian spirit. But we can and should foster an environment where religious differences are tolerated and general well being is encouraged. Unity in practice, as opposed to that of "lip service," would be extremely beneficial for mankind.



]Originally posted by sweftl337
If we are to look deeper than simply creating labels as "haters' it seems that many of these 'haters' simply do NOT accept in the notion of being forced into a blender, or rather havng to support Revolutions as the only correct form of soul-development into unification.


I do not advocate forcing a person to be put in a "blender" or forced to subscribe to my beliefs. I do ask, however, that they do not use their particular mythology as justification for attacking my beliefs.



]Originally posted by sweftl337
A question may be asked: Do we as people today require borders?

YES!


Not necessarily. Some may. I don't.



]Originally posted by sweftl337
For every step we take in this so-called 'unification', we must have already taken 3 more in the spiritual development.

And until this process has occurred spiritually, it our our duty to oppose this Satanic form of false unification.


Your opposition to differing belief systems, whether Satanic or not, is an act of violence.

[edit on 11-3-2007 by befoiled]



posted on Mar, 11 2007 @ 07:06 PM
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Your opposition to differing belief systems, whether Satanic or not, is an act of violence.


According to this statement, St Germain was himself violent because he opposed with every part of his being the Revolution that took place in the material by his understanding that change was to occur naturally.

One must oppose the false form of materialism by understanding it's true deception I do not flee from it's forces but I do oppose falsehoods. Evil is often a form of good that comes outside of it's time.



posted on Mar, 11 2007 @ 07:22 PM
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Originally posted by sweftl337
According to this statement, St Germain was himself violent because he opposed with every part of his being the Revolution that took place in the material by his understanding that change was to occur naturally.


I wasn't aware there was an authoritative account of his life much less a definitive account of his beliefs.




Originally posted by sweftl337
One must oppose the false form of materialism by understanding it's true deception I do not flee from it's forces but I do oppose falsehoods. Evil is often a form of good that comes outside of it's time.


I disagree with falsehoods but do not actively oppose them. I do oppose false or deceptive action. Your beliefs do not affect me. Your actions do, should such actions adversly affect my existence. Your version of evil may be - and probably is - different than mine.


[edit on 11-3-2007 by befoiled]



posted on Mar, 11 2007 @ 07:36 PM
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I disagree with falsehoods but do not actively oppose them. I do oppose false or deceptive action. Your beliefs do not affect me. Your actions do, should such actions adversly affect my existence. Your version of evil may be - and probably is - different than mine.


I am referring to the differences in Goethe's world view and it's application, vs. the common world view that is manifested through materialism today. I confess that my main concern is to provide a contribution that my own appreciation of Goethe’s view of the world, is in essence opposing of actions - not in their beliefs.

Your point is well taken.



posted on Mar, 11 2007 @ 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by sweftl337

I can only assume that we as a species are not ready for it because the 'haters' are winning.


Unification must come first in Spirit and next in material application. But what do we see manifested from the dead form of Freemasonry today and what form of lasting peace can it truly offer us?

If we are to look deeper than simply creating labels as "haters' it seems that many of these 'haters' simply do NOT accept in the notion of being forced into a blender, or rather havng to support Revolutions as the only correct form of soul-development into unification.

A question may be asked: Do we as people today require borders?

YES!

For every step we take in this so-called 'unification', we must have already taken 3 more in the spiritual development.

Therefore, Andy or anyone else does not have to buy into this unification nonsense. And until this process has occurred spiritually, it our our duty to oppose this Satanic form of false unification.


[edit on 11-3-2007 by sweftl337]


"Unification nonsense"

That really says it all about guys like you and Andy...

There's no "blender" of beliefs or spirituality in Freemasonry. As we have tried to explain so many times, each Mason is free to worship according to his beliefs, in his church, synagogue, mosque or back verandah.

The only unification that Freemasonry is concerned with is that of brotherly love. Like the poster above, I am disturbed that you guys have such a problem with it. Brotherly love must be really, really evil or something eh...

"Haters" is an appropriate term. You guys seem to be all about divisiveness and exclusion.




posted on Mar, 12 2007 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol
Here is my proof that masonry is a religion. Now show me yours that it's not.


The burden of proof is on you, as accuser. And all these quotes indicate (not 'prove') is that Masonry is a religious institution... which it is.

Religious institution. Not religion.



You keep claiming that masonry isn't a religion. I need proof. Here's your chance to stop the long drawn out posts like you have written (that show no proof that it's not).


Yeah, fat chance of that... but I'll bite.



1) The GAOTU of Masonry is the God of the Bible.
2) The GAOTU of Masonry is Allah of the Quran/Koran.


Possibly true. The GAOTU is a concept that points to the individual Mason's personal beliefs.



3) There is only one “GAOTU” regardless of different names given that being by different religions.


Sort of true. We are all monotheists, so yes, there is only one God, by definition. However, we each have our own interpretation and understanding of that God.



4) The GAOTU of Masonry can be whichever god you profess as your supreme being.


Not quite true. There is no 'can be' involved. There is only one supreme being. I understand certain things about said being. You might disagree, and understand your own aspects.



5) The GAOTU of Masonry can be a spiritual being different from a god.


No. The Grand Architect is THE spiritual being. There can be no other.



6) The GAOTU of Masonry can be Satan.


If you are the sort of person that believes that there is a fellow named 'Satan' that put all of this marvelous creation together, then sure.

But, if you're going for the classical Christian 'this is God, and this is his enemy Satan' bit, then no, I wouldn't think so.



7) Jahbulon is a word for the syncretic nature of the god of Masonry.


I've never heard that word in my time in Masonry.



8) Some prominent Masonic authors have asserted that the GAOTU is far above the narrow, sectarian gods of religions like Christianity and Judaism, inter alia.


False.



9) The V.S.L. in a Masonic Lodge is the Holy Bible.
10) The V.S.L. in a Masonic Lodge is the Quran/Koran.
11) The V.S.L. in a Masonic Lodge is the Book of Mormon.
12) The V.S.L. in a Masonic Lodge can be the holy book of Buddhists.
13) The V.S.L. in a Masonic Lodge can be the book considered holy by Wiccans.


FYI, the 'Buddist book' is the Tipitaka. Wicca doesn't have a holy book.

Possibly true, for any of the above. The Volume of Sacred Law is particular to whomever constitutes the lodge. It is common practice, in some lodges, to have multiple out at the same time. I've seen 5 out at once.



14) There are several denominations of Protestantism which forbid membership to Masons and others in so-called “secret societies.”


I don't know the answer to that... there are many 'denominations' of Protestantism, and I don't belong to any of them.

I do know a number of Protestant masons.



15) All branches of Orthodox Christianity forbid membership to Masons and others in so-called “secret societies.”


False. I sit regularly in lodge with an Orthodox Christian bishop, who is 'openly' a mason.



16) Several prominent evangelists including D.L. Moody, R.A. Torrey, Charles Finney, and Alva McClain took serious issue with Freemasonry and wrote or preached on its distinct incompatibility with Christianity.


I guess.



17) There are many saviors among the world’s religions or ethnic groupings; Jesus is the savior for Christians, just as Mohammed is the savior for Muslims and Hiram Abiff for Masons.


False.

Mohammed is the prophet of the Muslims, not their savior.

Hiram Abiff is not a savior figure.



18) Does Masonry instruct members that there are paths to “the celestial lodge above” other than confession of faith in Jesus Christ?


False. Masonry doesn't describe the path to salvation.

What you are referring to:



The lambskin, therefore, was to remind you of that purity of life and conduct which is so essentially necessary to your gaining admission into the celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.


... only reminds us that purity of life and conduct are necessary for admission. It doesn't say that living such a life will automatically get you to Heaven.

The details of admission are between you and your maker... but I don't think there is any religion out there that doesn't say you have to live a virtuous life, before He'll even pay you heed.



19) Have some “Christian” Masons joined AAONMS (The Shrine) even though taking an oath to the God of Islam, knowingly or unknowingly? Do such “Christian” Masons find nothing wrong in swearing such an oath to Allah?


Not being a Shriner, I can't answer this one.



posted on Mar, 12 2007 @ 11:19 AM
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I've hesitated to get involved in this discussion, mostly due to time pressures right now, but I wanted to make a couple of points if I may.

Hobbes

I don't agree with everything you've posted, and of course I wouldn't, because you and I both know that freemasonry is interpretive rather than absolute, and I suspect this is one of the cores of the wider misunderstanding. I believe that it is quite possible for a freemason not to subscribe to the belief that the God of the Christians, Jews and Muslims is the same God, because I don't believe this is a relevant point for freemasonry. If I believe I am standing next to a man who is praying to a god that I believe doesn't exist, that's his business and in no way affects my relationship with God. A Christian who believes it is his duty to prosyltize to that man on any occasion cannot join freemasonry and is right not to do so. A man who cannot 'tolerate' another man's 'false' religion cannot be a freemason. I can, and I find no incompatibility with my relationship with Christ in doing so.

There are some people out there who preach a narrow view of Christianity, and for them I understand their problem with freemasonry. I am quite accepting that they will not regard me as a 'Christian' by their own interpretation of scripture. My relationship with Christ is not affected by their viewpoint of me.

Andy

We haven't conversed recently - I hope you're keeping well.

The interpretation of Hiram Abiff as a messianic figure, and a savior to freemasons, is quite wrong and based on a complete misunderstanding of the role of freemasonry in a mason's belief structure. For the Christian freemason, the story of Hiram Abiff teaches us to emulate our Lord Jesus, exemplified in the words of Emulation ritual:


Continue to listen to the voice of Nature, which bears witness that even in this perishable frame resides a vital and immortal principle, which inspires a holy confidence that the Lord of Life will enable us to trample the King of Terrors beneath our fee, and lift our eyes to that bright Morning Star, whose rising brings peace and salvation to the faithful and obedient of the human race.


The Lord of Life and the Bright Morning Star refer to Jesus - the King of Terrors is Satan. I am aware of the history of the phrase 'Bright Morning Star' and can assure you it is not a reference to Lucifer/Satan but an older meaning of Lucifer which has been well discussed in other threads.

Freemasonry was 'de-Christianized' may years ago to allow non-Christians to find meaning and validity in the symbolism and message of the Craft. By not specifying Jesus Christ in the ritual, but leaving the savior interpretive, it has opened the door to criticism that freemasonry has excluded Jesus from the ritual. To me, and to Christian freemasons, the term GAOTU means the triune God comprising the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and no-one (freemason or not) has the right to tell me otherwise because freemasonry is interpretive on an individual basis.

I hope this makes some sort of sense.



posted on Mar, 12 2007 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
I believe that it is quite possible for a freemason not to subscribe to the belief that the God of the Christians, Jews and Muslims is the same God, because I don't believe this is a relevant point for freemasonry.


Oh, I do not mean to suggest that they are the same being. I mean my statements more from a view of 'I know my god exists, and is the only god. You know your god exists, and is the only god. Therefore, there is only one god... we just don't agree on which one is real.'



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