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Anti-Masons

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posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 05:35 PM
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another nutcase




Google Video Link




posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 06:06 PM
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it would seem as though the "personal theories of a non-Mason", as you call them, referring to Hall, might have a little more Masonic substance to them than you have indicated.


Personal theories the anti mason have against freemasonry. And yes budda light I think the "masonic spin" is a shay bit funny.
They totally avoided this Further, we might want to consider what was written about Manly P. Hall in the obituary published in the 'Scottish Rite Journal', 11/90:
"Illustrious Manly Palmer Hall, often called 'Masonry's Greatest Philosopher', departed his earthly labors peacefully in his sleep on August 7, 1990, in Los Angeles, California. . . .The author of over 50 books and more than 65 smaller works, Illustrious Hall was also the founder and a past President of the Philosophical Research Society of Los Angeles, California. He is best know for writing 'The Lost Keys of Freemasonry' (1923), 'The Dionysian Artificers' 1926, 'Masonic Orders of Fraternity' (1950) and, of course, his monumental 'Encyclopedic Outline' of Masonic history, philosophy and related subjects. . . .Like Grand Commander Albert Pike before him, Ill(ustrious) Hall did not teach a new doctrine but was an ambassador of an ageless tradition of wisdom that enriches us to this day.. ."

I fully understand your dilemma. This is just one example of how some members of the Craft have no qualms whatever about putting out deliberate misinformation. It serves a two-fold purpose:
1. It is intended that the misinformation will somehow detract from the facts. In the cases of Hall, and Albert Pike, these men have made statements which are totally in accord with the deeper meanings of Freemasonry. However, because putting this in print often times proves to be embarrassing, somebody, somewhere along the line, has seen fit to start a propaganda campaign in an effort to discredit what these men have written. I am of the personal opinion that the same thing was done with 'Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia'. He made some statements about Freemasonry being a religion, among other things, so a group of Masons went into his writings and re-wrote them in order that the truths of Coil's original writings would no longer prove to cause red faces.; and
2. Because most members would like to believe they would not be intentionally misled by members of the "Gentle Craft", the misinformation is picked up on and disseminated by well-intentioned people such as yourself.

This worked out pretty well for the "spin doctors" of Masonry for many years. As long as the average person - Mason and non-Mason alike - had no evidence to the contrary, the misinformation was accepted by one and all. Only problem is that eventually, some of the writings containing the truth began getting into the hands of people who recognized the problems in what Masonry is actually teaching.

They also totally avoided the fact that the company that puts out this book is a big pro masonic company. The also neglect to take into account the back of the book description is written by a mason. Who praises the book up and down. This is okay though.


this the quote “When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onwards and upwards he must prove his ability to properly apply (this) energy.”
Manley P Hall [33rd degree Mason] ‘Lost Keys of Freemasonry’ 48,

Bingo. Good work. Now you know upon what foundation Masonry is built: the worship of Lucifer, as Hall wrote and Pike so eloquently complemented with the quote you reference: "the true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in lucifer, the equal of Adonay, but lucifer, god of light and god of good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the god of darkness and evil”

At least we are on the same wavelength. Now you know what the 33rd degree of Masonry teaches.

Let that sink in as you really start to question what lies behind this institution.

You could ask the Master of the Grand Lodge of England this question about Lucifer, but he cannot tell you. He is obligated not to reveal it to anyone lower than 33rd degree. You, like us, are profane and ineligible, i.e., "not cleared" for such information.

And again I ask if you can answer any of these questions about Manly Hall:

Where in his later writings did he reject what he'd written in Lost Keys?

What motivated him to do his original research for Lost Keys?

Who were his mentors?

Why would he want to join an organization with such beliefs - according to him - unless he wanted to verify his earlier knowledge regarding the secret doctrines and perhaps experience such "seething energies" he believes are available to Masons?

Why was he considered noble enough to join if he held views that were blatantly untrue?

Perhaps your real education has just begun, Andy.



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol
At least we are on the same wavelength. Now you know what the 33rd degree of Masonry teaches.


Apparently not. I received the 33rd Degree of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry in 2001 and NONE of the lies and puke you posted were in it. It's a beautiful and impressive ceremony based upon knighthood, etc. Lots of "pomp & pageantry".

Looks like you're guilty of believing anything you read again, Andy. Tsk, tsk.

Maybe YOUR education will begin sometime soon. (But it's not looking very good for you)


[edit on 9-3-2007 by Appak]



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 07:27 PM
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Why would he want to join an organization with such beliefs - according to him - unless he wanted to verify his earlier knowledge regarding the secret doctrines and perhaps experience such "seething energies" he believes are available to Masons?

Why was he considered noble enough to join if he held views that were blatantly untrue?

Where in his later writings did he reject what he'd written in Lost Keys?

What motivated him to do his original research for Lost Keys?

Dear Appak: Foundation of speculative Freemasonry began in 1717 by developing flowery prose and rituals for the ancient pagan teachings that have evolved into the GAOTU Masons revere as JAH-BUL-ON, a composite and totally fictitious Hebrew, Egyptian, and Baal-worshipped deity. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ regards such worship as blasphemy.

Most lodges will relieve you of a few hundred dollars for the various degrees of Scottish Rite or the various degrees of York Rite. And if all goes well in the dramas and lectures and memorized obligations you make, then you can attain 32nd degree. Many have.

Either a) the 33rd degree is so easy to get on a weekend, that just a few more than 24 -- of five or six million Masons (or more) -- would have paid for and attained it?

Or b) this degree is in fact the utmost degree -- conferred only very rarely to those who after years of membership prove by their writings and other defenses of the institution, that they can be trusted to accept, practice, and worship the Luciferian doctrine that Pike and Manly Hall and other 33rd degree Masons wish them to?

Now who is lying?


[edit on 9-3-2007 by Andy Warhol]



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 07:33 PM
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Again, what is revealed at the higher degrees cannot, by "sacred" obligation, be shared with those at lower degrees, because, like outsiders, those lower degrees are "profane" for such information divulged at the higher degrees, especially the 33rd.



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 07:36 PM
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if Masonry was not prone to see credence in Hall's writings, why would one of the most respected companies in the United States, as far as Masonry goes, see fit to publish and distribute Hall's writings? Further, why would that publishing company, to this day, have the following to say about 'Lost Keys. .', for example: "As a contribution to Masonic idealism, revealing the profounder aspects of an ancient fraternity which has always wrought for the benefit of mankind, the book is one to read over and over again." You are attempting to make arguments that are totally baseless.



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 07:48 PM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol
Why would he want to join an organization with such beliefs - according to him - unless he wanted to verify his earlier knowledge regarding the secret doctrines and perhaps experience such "seething energies" he believes are available to Masons?

Why was he considered noble enough to join if he held views that were blatantly untrue?

Where in his later writings did he reject what he'd written in Lost Keys?

What motivated him to do his original research for Lost Keys?


Honestly I don't know much about Hall. Too bad he's dead, or you could ask him yourself. Masons ARE individuals after all. Unlike fundamentalists who are typically members of the "flock"



Dear Appak: Foundation of speculative Freemasonry began in 1717


Thank you for the history lesson Andy but believe me I know more about Freemasonry than you will EVER know, even if you live to be 100 years old.



by developing flowery prose and rituals for the ancient pagan teachings that have evolved into the GAOTU Masons revere as JAH-BUL-ON, a composite and totally fictitious Hebrew, Egyptian, and Baal-worshipped deity. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ regards such worship as blasphemy.


This has been discussed over and over and I'll say it one more time since you have absolutely NO CLUE. The bastard word "Jah-Bul-On" is NOT used in ANY Masonic ritual I have ever experienced INCLUDING the Royal Arch Degree (the one it purportedly DOES appear in) Yes, I AM a Royal Arch Mason.



Most lodges will relieve you of a few hundred dollars for the various degrees of Scottish Rite or the various degrees of York Rite. And if all goes well in the dramas and lectures and memorized obligations you make, then you can attain 32nd degree. Many have.


And you know this HOW? From experience? I think not! FYI it cost me $75.00 for the Scottish Rite Degrees and $92.50 for the York Rite. Hardly "a few hundred dollars" and even if it did? What of it? It is, after all, MY money. Why do you CARE?


Either a) the 33rd degree is so easy to get on a weekend, that just a few more than 24 -- of five or six million Masons (or more) -- would have paid for and attained it?


FYI again clueless one. Those Master (3rd Degree) Masons who petition the Scottish Rite receive the 4th - 32nd Degrees. Period. This isn't bragging, just informing....percentage-wise, almost NO ONE receives the 33rd Degree. It is by invitation ONLY. It's a tremendous honour in Scottish Rite Masonry.

Read here:

www.scottish-rite-mn.org...

Hmm...wrong again, aren't you Andy?



Or b) this degree is in fact the utmost degree -- conferred only very rarely to those who after years of membership prove by their writings and other defenses of the institution, that they can be trusted to accept, practice, and worship the Luciferian doctrine that Pike and Manly Hall and other 33rd degree Masons wish them to?


Nope. I was nominated for my work in the Church and community. You see, Andy 'ol boy, the 33rd Degree isn't given just for service to Freemasonry. Because Freemasonry serves the community at large and service to the community is recognized by the Order. That's why members like Col. Harlan Sanders (Kentucky Fried Chicken) and Dave Thomas (former employee of Col. Sanders and founder of Wendy's Restaurants) (upon both of whom be peace) received the 33rd Degree. NEITHER were particularly active in Freemasonry, but both were VERY active in the community. Unlike some rich people, these two guys made millions of $$$$ and they GAVE millions of $$$ back.



Now who is lying?



I'm certainly not. Must be you. Actually you're not lying, you're just uninformed, you believe ANYTHING you read that is negative and you will not open your mind and learn the truth because of your narrow-mindedness. Too bad for you Andy.

Oh....by the way:
right back at ya!

And while I'm at it....


[edit on 9-3-2007 by Appak]



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 07:50 PM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol
if Masonry was not prone to see credence in Hall's writings, why would one of the most respected companies in the United States, as far as Masonry goes, see fit to publish and distribute Hall's writings? Further, why would that publishing company, to this day, have the following to say about 'Lost Keys. .', for example: "As a contribution to Masonic idealism, revealing the profounder aspects of an ancient fraternity which has always wrought for the benefit of mankind, the book is one to read over and over again." You are attempting to make arguments that are totally baseless.


Jesus, Mary and Joseph! Have you never heard of "puffery"? Don't you KNOW about uhm.... $$$$$$$$$$$ ?

If they're trying to sell it, why say "It's a crappy-assed book, please don't buy it?"

For crying out loud......



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 07:57 PM
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That's why members like Col. Harlan Sanders (Kentucky Fried Chicken) and Dave Thomas (former employee of Col. Sanders and founder of Wendy's Restaurants)
This isn't about Sanders and Thomas now is it?


Jesus, Mary and Joseph! Have you never heard of "puffery"? Don't you KNOW about uhm.... $$$$$$$$$$$ ?

So know masonry is just about money? Gotta ya. I never said it was a crappy book did I?

I'am not lying. I could careless that you are mason. It still doesn't make what you have done right
And again I ask But, if Masonry was not prone to see credence in Hall's writings, why would one of the most respected companies in the United States, as far as Masonry goes, see fit to publish and distribute Hall's writings? Further, why would that publishing company, to this day, have the following to say about 'Lost Keys. .', for example: "As a contribution to Masonic idealism, revealing the profounder aspects of an ancient fraternity which has always wrought for the benefit of mankind, the book is one to read over and over again." You are attempting to make arguments that are totally baseless.

Not that what he will tell you will be truthful, however.

to other masons on Manly Hall:

Where in his later writings did he reject what he'd written (about the seething energies of Lucifer) in Lost Keys?

What motivated him to do his original research for Lost Keys?

Who were his mentors?

And again Appak since you know so much about freemasonry and nothing about Hall. Come on give me a break.

Not only are you profane, but so is every other woman, every man outside of Masonry, and every youth. I am profane and always will be: thanks be to God for allowing me to realize the false doctrines of Masonry, but more so for sending His son to die on a cross for my sins and to guarantee life for eternity with Jesus. To the born again Christian, ANY other "way" to the Heaven of the New Testament is a road to nowhere, to eternal separation from Christ. But Masonry instructs its own that imitating Hiram Abiff and looking for ways to pat themselves on the back for their good works will elevate them to the Celestial Lodge above.


"Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: 'Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is "the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone." Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.'" Acts 4:8-12
"Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: 'Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is "the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone." Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.'" Acts 4:8-12

[edit on 9-3-2007 by Andy Warhol]

[edit on 9-3-2007 by Andy Warhol]



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 08:01 PM
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So Andy what do you think about the fact Masonry supported the idea God and you have a personal relationship, as opposed to the theory that your relationship with God is dependent upon a specific church?

I guess that it's awful, the day the Bible cannot be learned except when taught by a demi-god in a pulpit.



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol
So know masonry is just about money? Gotta ya.


No-aa, ya don't. SELLING BOOKS is about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$. The company that publishes the book is NOT affiliated with ANY Masonic Lodge, etc. It's an individual company that specializes in Masonic items.


I never said it was a crappy book did I?


I was just making a point.


I'am not lying. I could careless that you are mason. It still doesn't make what you have done right


Doesn't make it WRONG either, except in the narrow minds of some unthinking individuals, huh?



And again I ask But, if Masonry was not prone to see credence in Hall's writings, why would one of the most respected companies in the United States, as far as Masonry goes, see fit to publish and distribute Hall's writings?


Some Masons DO agree w/ Hall's writings. Some do not. The company in question is in business to make $ $ $ $ $ $ $. Easy stuff.



You are attempting to make arguments that are totally baseless.


No, I'm attempting to enlighten someone who's head is in the sand.



And again Appak since you know so much about freemasonry and nothing about Hall. Come on give me a break.


Why? Why give you a break and let you spread lies? Why not take you to task?


Not only are you profane, but so is every other woman, every man outside of Masonry, and every youth. I am profane and always will be: thanks be to God for allowing me to realize the false doctrines of Masonry,


BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA

You don't have the first CLUE about Freemasonry. Personally I thank God you aren't a member. We neither need nor want shallow-minded "holier-than-thou" individuals like you.


but more so for sending His son to die on a cross for my sins and to guarantee life for eternity with Jesus. To the born again Christian, ANY other "way" to the Heaven of the New Testament is a road to nowhere, to eternal separation from Christ. But Masonry instructs its own that imitating Hiram Abiff and looking for ways to pat themselves on the back for their good works will elevate them to the Celestial Lodge above.


Wrong again Andy. Strike three. Masonry teaches that every good Mason DESIRES to enter the "Celestial Lodge above" It doesn't make them worthy nor does it have a "plan of salvation" It leaves that to the individual Mason who is to find it for himself.

Personally I found it in my church, through my Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus, the Christ. (probably kin to the guy you know)



"Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: 'Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is "the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone." Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.'" Acts 4:8-12
"Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: 'Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is "the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone." Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.'" Acts 4:8-12


Get that Bible out Andy. Thump! Thump! Thump! Thump! Thump!

"Holier than thou" is that what Christ taught YOU Andy?

You MUST have misunderstood.



[edit on 9-3-2007 by Appak]



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 09:08 PM
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No-aa, ya don't. SELLING BOOKS is about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$. The company that publishes the book is NOT affiliated with ANY Masonic Lodge, etc. It's an individual company that specializes in Masonic items.

The company is a business so people can more about the "Craft" as you say it. You can read the purpose of the book on Amazon.com And if it's only purpose is to make money why would many lodges say it is recommended reading.
"Manly P. Hall (33rd degree Mason & founder of The Philosophical Research Society) gives us an illuminating, poetically written treatise on the origins of Ancient Masonry and the underlying, meaning of much Masonic Symbolism and practice. Hall's book is a poetic read, that can be consumed in one sitting, yet will be read and refered to many times again. He details some of the spiritual aspects of the hidden meanings of Masonry and the ancient origins from which the modern fraternity receives it's wisdom. The Foreward is by Reynold E. Blight, 33rd degree, K.T. & the illustrations are by J. Augustus Knapp, 32nd degree.... Obviously, this man is viewed as a Great, within the ranks of the Fraternity."


Amazon.com book review:

"If you're a Master Mason, you should have read or be reading this book. If you're a new Mason but not a Master yet, you should read this book. It discusses the symbolism of the degrees and a bit of the meaning of each stage of becoming a Master Mason. It puts Freemasonry and the degrees in a light you probably won't get otherwise but every Master Mason should experience. The more you read, the more Masonry will mean to you and the more you'll understand about Masonry."


"Editorial Reviews . . . From the Back Cover

Temple Builder, Craftsmen and Artisans alike, will find much for study and consideration within these pages. Here are keys which, if only read, will leave the reader still in ignorance but, if lived, will change the speculative Masonry of today into the operative Masonry of tomorrow, when each builder, realizing his own place, will see things which he never saw before, not because they were not there, but because he was blind. And there are none so blind as those who will not see."

More then a money making sceme here.


"Holier than thou" is that what Christ taught YOU Andy?

And did Christ teach you to panter to all religions?
God speaks about that when yoking with non believers. Which is abundant is the masonic lodge


Wrong again Andy. Strike three. Masonry teaches that every good Mason DESIRES to enter the "Celestial Lodge above"

And were is that Celestial Lodge above located


By the Great Light, I assume that masons are referring to the Bible. It seems to me that the Grand Lodge is falsifying a quote from the Bible in order to give the impression that the Bible agrees with the false gospel of Freemasonry.

If you feel that I am wrong, where in the Bible might I find this quote?






[edit on 9-3-2007 by Andy Warhol]



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 09:30 PM
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And again you keep avoiding the questions.

Where in his later writings did he reject what he'd written in Lost Keys?

What motivated him to do his original research for Lost Keys?

Who were his mentors?

How are we to know when he joined the organization?

Why would he want to join an organization with such beliefs - according to him - unless he wanted to verify his earlier knowledge regarding the secret doctrines and perhaps experience such "seething energies" he believes are available to Masons?

Why was he considered noble enough to join if he held views that were blatantly untrue?

bottom line: you cannot have it both ways.

(And I will be waiting to see your diligence in finding out what in his mind were "the lost keys" of the 33rd degree.)



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 01:57 AM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol
And again you keep avoiding the questions.

Where in his later writings did he reject what he'd written in Lost Keys?

What motivated him to do his original research for Lost Keys?


I'm avoiding nothing. I said earlier that I don't know much about Hall (although I have several of his books that I have not read...nor will I likely ever read them) I don't hold him in the "high esteem" that you seem to think all Masons do. Some might. Some don't.



Who were his mentors?


Who knows? Why does it matter?



How are we to know when he joined the organization?


Perhaps by doing some research.


From Denslow's "10,0000 Famous Freemasons":

Manly P. Hall: Born March 18, 1901 in Peterborough, Ontario. Became a member of Jewel Lodge #374, San Francisco on November 22, 1954.

Happy now?




Why would he want to join an organization with such beliefs - according to him - unless he wanted to verify his earlier knowledge regarding the secret doctrines and perhaps experience such "seething energies" he believes are available to Masons?


I suppose one would have to ask HIM that question, huh?



Why was he considered noble enough to join if he held views that were blatantly untrue?


Masonry doesn't tell her members what to think. Refer back to ol' Al Pike's book Morals & Dogma where he said that anyone could disagree with whatever they found to be untrue. Hall thought for himself and he did NOT (nor does anyone) speak for the whole of Freemasonry. That bears repeating. NO ONE speaks for the whole of Freemasonry. ANY MASON can write about it though. We all have opinions.



(And I will be waiting to see your diligence in finding out what in his mind were "the lost keys" of the 33rd degree.)


I hope you're not holding your breath. There ARE NO "lost keys" of the 33rd Degree. The 33rd Degree is an honor degree of the Scottish Rite, which is but ONE of SEVERAL branches of Freemasonry. Nothing special about the 33rd Degree except to Masons who also belong to the Scottish Rite. As for his book "The Lost Keys of Freemasonry" why wait? Why not read for yourself and see what he said? I said it earlier, I have the book but haven't read it (I've thumbed it a bit and find it rather dry). YOU read it and see what you think if you're so interested.



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 02:11 AM
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You really need to learn how to use "quotes" Andy. It would make your posts easier to follow. Just hit "quote" on this messages and note how you use the "open/close" quote commands.


Originally posted by Andy Warhol
The company is a business so people can more about the "Craft" as you say it. You can read the purpose of the book on Amazon.com And if it's only purpose is to make money why would many lodges say it is recommended reading.


I said the COMPANY'S purpose is to make $$$$$. That's why businesses exist. As far as Masons recommending it, as I said above. Some people like the book. Same reason trashy novels are recommended by some people...they like that sort of thing.

This Mason couldn't care less about Hall's writings.


Obviously, this man is viewed as a Great, within the ranks of the Fraternity."



Again, perhaps by SOME, but not by everyone. I don't view him as great. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he was a nice guy (God rest his soul).



Amazon.com book review:

"If you're a Master Mason, you should have read or be reading this book...

"Editorial Reviews . . . From the Back Cover

Temple Builder, Craftsmen and Artisans alike, will find much for study and consideration within these pages.... More then a money making sceme here.




Again, if the company said "This is a crappy book, please don't buy it" what sense would THAT make? You gotta promote your merchandise and, as I've said before, SOME people like his writings.



And did Christ teach you to panter to all religions?


What does "panter" mean? The dictionary says "a rope or net"


Masons, unlike fundamentalists, happen to respect the beliefs of others. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I support freedom of religion. We are ALL God's creation, right? Remember that "love one another" thing he said?




And where is that Celestial Lodge located?


Where is Heaven located?



By the Great Light, I assume that masons are referring to the Bible. It seems to me that the Grand Lodge is falsifying a quote from the Bible in order to give the impression that the Bible agrees with the false gospel of Freemasonry.


There is no "false gospel of Freemasonry" because there is no "gospel" of Freemasonry. If you believe otherwise, you're mistaken. It's a fraternity. Not a religion. It has no plan of salvation. No "path to heaven" THAT is found by the individual Mason himself in the faith of his choice.



If you feel that I am wrong, where in the Bible might I find this quote?


I didn't see that you quoted anything.



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 05:36 AM
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I'm sorry to say Andy, they've had you. Just as they've had me in the past.

Most of the things you have stated are true and are verifiable if one does the research.
But you know how Appak and his friends work. No source that is against freemasonry is trustworthy. Anyone can see what their doing if you follow them up for a couple of weeks. Day after day and month after month in their online ATS office. Don't they have a job or something, or is this their job? I've seen these guys doing the same thing for months now.

What about making a compilation of their tactical ways to bend any story to their hand. There are hundreds of pages with examples in their posts.

Many members here know they are here to sabotage. Let's get together and expose these manipulators ones and for all.

I've been into freemasonry for a long time now. I've read dozens of books on the topic, opened my mind for many researchers to see their view on the fraternity and everything that's involved in it. And that's something these masons on ATS obviously don't do, if you see their anwsers on certain topics or sources. They just blast it away and state it's not of relevance or it was a wacko guy talking about some illusions he's had.

They spend to much time in breaking a thread.. Just watch this thread.. Can't you see
They don't want you to know. Why would I keep pushing for people to go research if I'm not certain about the truth of freemasonry. I don't get money for it, it only costs me a lot of time and many repeating and boring situations with these masons.



[edit on 10-3-2007 by buddhaLight]



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by buddhaLight
I'm sorry to say Andy, they've had you. Just as they've had me in the past.


Here we go again. "The masons are picking on us" cry cry cry.



Most of the things you have stated are true and are verifiable if one does the research.


You seem to think research involves quoting large ramblings from people who think just like you do and often from those who've NEVER set foot into a Masonic Lodge.



But you know how Appak and his friends work. No source that is against freemasonry is trustworthy.


That's not true at all Buddha, If a man has BEEN an ACTUAL Mason and does not feel that it's the right thing to do, he has every right to get out of the fraternity and to tell others that he believes it's bad.

He does not, however, have ANY right to tell others that all Masons are devil-worshipers or that Jah-bul-on is the "god" of Freemasonry of that there's a secret "upper-level" of Masonry that runs the freakin' world. Those are out-right blatant bare-faced lies and when they are stated as fact they're talking about ALL Freemasons, therefore they're lying about ME and I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and be lied about by people who do not even KNOW me or what my personal faith is. Plain enough Buddha?

Say what you want. When you lie about me, I'm standing up.


Anyone can see what their doing if you follow them up for a couple of weeks. Day after day and month after month in their online ATS office. Don't they have a job or something, or is this their job?


Not really any of your business what we do, now is it? Some people have jobs that allow much free time. Some people are retired. Some people do not have to work. ATS certainly isn't MY job. If it is I need to send them my updated mailing address as I haven't received my paycheck yet.




What about making a compilation of their tactical ways to bend any story to their hand. There are hundreds of pages with examples in their posts.


There are numerous examples of anti-masonic lies that have been refuted over and over. Not to mention the ever-popular "the Masons are derailing the thread" when someone disagrees with the flock.



Many members here know they are here to sabotage. Let's get together and expose these manipulators ones and for all.


I'm certainly not here to sabotage. I'm here to be entertained by people who've NEVER SET FOOT in a Masonic Lodge but proclaim to be experts while those of us who are active in every branch of the Order of nit-wits.




I've been into freemasonry for a long time now.


Personally I've been into it 26 years now.


I've read dozens of books on the topic,


I've read hundreds. Really.



opened my mind for many researchers to see their view on the fraternity and everything that's involved in it. And that's something these masons on ATS obviously don't do,


Nope. Wrong again.


if you see their anwsers on certain topics or sources. They just blast it away and state it's not of relevance or it was a wacko guy talking about some illusions he's had.


See my statement above. Some of the sources ARE whacko. Some have a right to their opinion if they've actually experienced Masonry. NONE have a right to lie. What kind of research are you doing if you're accepting bare-faced lies as damning evidence? Sheesh!



They spend to much time in breaking a thread.. Just watch this thread.. Can't you see
They don't want you to know.


That's rich buddha, We've told guys like you over and over what Masonry is. You've read the negative things and for some reason people want to believe something if it's bad and deny what's good. A flaw in human nature I suppose.



Why would I keep pushing for people to go research if I'm not certain about the truth of freemasonry.


Uhm-hmmm. One question: Have you EVER attended a Meeting of a Masonic organization?

Yes or no? No need to elaborate.

If you have been a Mason and believe it's wrong, I'm fine with that. I do not believe it's wrong for me.

If you have NOT been a Mason, you are not an expert, regardless how many books you've read or what you've "googled" up on the internet.



I don't get money for it, it only costs me a lot of time and many repeating and boring situations with these masons.


Ditto with the anti's and Bible-thumpers.



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol


this the quote “When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onwards and upwards he must prove his ability to properly apply (this) energy.”
Manley P Hall [33rd degree Mason] ‘Lost Keys of Freemasonry’ 48,

Bingo. Good work. Now you know upon what foundation Masonry is built: the worship of Lucifer, as Hall wrote and Pike so eloquently complemented with the quote you reference: "the true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in lucifer, the equal of Adonay, but lucifer, god of light and god of good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the god of darkness and evil”


You continue to purposefully distort Hall, and you continue to quote Taxil and pretend it's Pike. This in itself shows your credibility factor.

Nowhere did Hall say anything about "worshiping Lucifer", nor was he was talking about the devil of Christian mythology.

Although Tamahu and I often disagree on points of doctrine, this is one thing we definitely do NOT disagree on: the philosophical Lucifer of the Theosophists is the Quintessence, the Stone of the Philosophers. For the word itself means the Eternal Light. It is the Inner Light, the Christos, the Buddha Nature of the Cosmos.

This is not something to be "worshiped" as in exoteric religions. Rather its is something to be understood, as its "seething energies" manifest as the Universe.

Here is Hall's FULL quote:

The day has come when Fellow Craftsmen must know and apply their knowledge. The lost key to their grade is the mastery of emotion, which places the energy of the universe at their disposal. Man can only expect to be entrusted with great power by proving his ability to use it constructively and selflessly. When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy. He must follow in the footsteps of his forefather, Tubal-Cain, who with the mighty strength of the war god hammered his sword into a plowshare. Incessant vigilance over thought, action, and desire is indispensable to those who wish to make progress in the unfolding of their own being, and the Fellow Craft's degree is the degree of transmutation. The hand that slays must lift the fallen, while the lips given to cursing must be taught to pray. The heart that hates must learn the mystery of compassion, as the result of a deeper and more perfect understanding of man's relation to his brother. The firm, kind hand of spirit must curb the flaming powers of emotion with an iron grip. In the realization and application of these principles lies the key of the Fellow Craft.

Here, Hall simply points out the obvious truth that to he or she who is able to control his/her own emotions, and is able to understand the mystery of Compassion will have the seething emergies of Lucifer, or Universal Knowledge, at his/her disposal.

For those who care to read Hall's book themselves, without having Warhol shoving down their throats what he wants them to think about it, they may read the book in full here and decide for themselves.



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol


Where in his later writings did he reject what he'd written (about the seething energies of Lucifer) in Lost Keys?


He did not. He couldn't care less if his writings were purposefully distorted by the enemies of Truth. His only care was that spiritual truth would be available for the honest seeker, and for this reason who wrote his books.


What motivated him to do his original research for Lost Keys?


At the time Hall wrote that book, he was a philosophy major at UCLA. His motivation was to understand the Universe where we exist, and to discover it's underlying meaning.


Who were his mentors?


His mentors were the great philosophers of antiquity, especially Plato and Plotinus, as well as the great modern metaphysicians such as Kant, Spinoza, and Pike.



thanks be to God for allowing me to realize the false doctrines of Masonry, but more so for sending His son to die on a cross for my sins and to guarantee life for eternity with Jesus. To the born again Christian, ANY other "way" to the Heaven of the New Testament is a road to nowhere, to eternal separation from Christ. But Masonry instructs its own that imitating Hiram Abiff and looking for ways to pat themselves on the back for their good works will elevate them to the Celestial Lodge above.


You seem to believe that ATS is your personal soapbox and pulpit. It is not. From my time as a member here, and from reading hundreds of post, I would venture that most ATS members do not agree with your religious beliefs.

As I said earlier, nobody here cares what religion you belong to. This isn't a religious forum, and most folks here have better things to do than reading such stuff from Jimmy Swaggart wannabees.



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 11:59 AM
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Yeah Hall never qouted anything about Lucifer in the Lost Keys. “When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onwards and upwards he must prove his ability to properly apply (this) energy.”
Manley P Hall [33rd degree Mason] ‘Lost Keys of Freemasonry’ 48,

I fully understand your dilemma. This is just one example of how some members of the Craft have no qualms whatever about putting out deliberate misinformation. It serves a two-fold purpose:
1. It is intended that the misinformation will somehow detract from the facts. In the cases of Hall, and Albert Pike, these men have made statements which are totally in accord with the deeper meanings of Freemasonry. However, because putting this in print often times proves to be embarrassing, somebody, somewhere along the line, has seen fit to start a propaganda campaign in an effort to discredit what these men have written. I am of the personal opinion that the same thing was done with 'Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia'. He made some statements about Freemasonry being a religion, among other things, so a group of Masons went into his writings and re-wrote them in order that the truths of Coil's original writings would no longer prove to cause red faces.; and
2. Because most members would like to believe they would not be intentionally misled by members of the "Gentle Craft", the misinformation is picked up on and disseminated by well-intentioned people such as yourself.

This worked out pretty well for the "spin doctors" of Masonry for many years. As long as the average person - Mason and non-Mason alike - had no evidence to the contrary, the misinformation was accepted by one and all. Only problem is that eventually, some of the writings containing the truth began getting into the hands of people who recognized the problems in what Masonry is actually teaching.

Appak and Masonic Light: Bingo. Good work. Now you know upon what foundation Masonry is built: the worship of Lucifer, as Hall wrote and Pike so eloquently complemented with the quote you reference: "the true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in lucifer, the equal of Adonay, but lucifer, god of light and god of good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the god of darkness and evil”

At least we are on the same wavelength. Now you know what the 33rd degree of Masonry teaches.

Let that sink in as you really start to question what lies behind this institution.

You could ask the Master of the Grand Lodge of England this question about Lucifer, but he cannot tell you. He is obligated not to reveal it to anyone lower than 33rd degree. You, like us, are profane and ineligible, i.e., "not cleared" for such information.

Further, the fact that you were given a Bible in lodge does not change the heretical teachings of the craft. At the time the symbolism of the apron is explained to the newly initiated Entered Apprentice, why is he told that what is essentially necessary for gaining admission into heaven is a purity of life and rectitude of conduct? If the Bible is as significant in Freemasonry as you would seem to want others here to believe, why does the lodge not explain it as it is written in the Bibles you were presented with, and the ones you took your obligations on? A couple of passages come to mind:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. (Romans 10:9-12)

Now lets take a look at the Hiram Abiff ritual (Masonic Christ and saviour).

Then, finally my brethren, let us imitate our Grand Master, Hiram Abiff, in his virtuous conduct, his unfeigned piety to God, and his inflexible fidelity to his trust; that, like him, we may welcome the grim tyrant, Death, and receive him as a kind messenger sent by our Supreme Grand Master, to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. Master Mason Ritual

The Kentucky Monitor, published by the Grand Lodge of Kentucky has classified Hiram as the Masonic savior. It reads as follows:

All believed in a future life, to be attained by purification and trials; in a state or successive states of reward and punishment; and in a Mediator or Redeemer, by whom the Evil Principle was to be overcome and the Supreme Deity reconciled to His creatures. The belief was general that He was to be born of a virgin and suffer a painful death. The Hindus called him Krishna; the Chinese, Kioun-tse; the Persians, Sosiosch; the Chaldeans, Dhouvanai; the Egyptians, Horus; Plato, Love; the Scandinavians, Balder; the Christians, Jesus; Masons, Hiram. Kentucky Monitor, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th,10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th . . . editions (pages XIV-XV)

The Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania is currently circulating a book for the education and enlightenment of Masons which declares that Hiram is a savior for Masons. The book contains the following quotes:

Hiram, like Jesus, is subjected to three temptations which he withstands. He, like all the other saviors, loses his life in the contest between Right and the Principle of Evil. He lies buried fifteen days in contrast to the three days Jesus is said to have been in the tomb. The manner of his resurrection is dramatically different from all the others. Here, in fact, is a more enlightening example of resurrection than in any of the savior legends. The Lost Word Its Hidden Meaning, p. 156

We may discover why brief but glorious glimpses of what MAN MAY BE have been vouchsafed by such saviors as Osiris, Krishna, Jesus and Hiram. The Lost Word Its Hidden Meaning, p. 158

If you are sincere and want to see the evidence, we can supply you with copies. The Grand Lodges are the authorities of Freemasonry. Several of them recommend The Lost Word Its Hidden Meaning which states that Hiram is a savior for Masons. There is not a single Grand Lodge which has taken the position that anyone must have faith in Jesus Christ as a condition of salvation.







to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. Master Mason Ritual



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