Ancient Visitors to the Americas

First of all, and MOST IMPORTANTLY... let's allow civil debate here. It's getting tiresome.

Tagging each other with derogatory terms is going to draw fire.

Secondly, I've had to spend the last half hour editing ALL KINDS of problems associated with BB Code. If you make an error, PLEASE fix it after posting and save me (and the rest of the staff) the trouble.

Thanks

Grammar edit

[edit on 10/2/07 by masqua]

hey mojo4sale

thanks for the links.... very interesting, it really makes you wonder why this info is hushed and put down by a lot of scientists. What are they trying to hide from us? I think its all about control. It pisses me off but we just have to spread the truth..

since then with the advent of modern technology DNA samples of Olmec skeltons has revealed that none of them had any african dna at all

According to this site they cannot use DNA to determine race or origin.

A further complication in determining ancestry from DNA is that there are usually more differences within population groups (or races) than between groups (or races) at the phenotypic and genotypic levels.

It may be a long time before enough genetic information is available to compare individuals' DNA with DNA from different races and determine which race the individual may have descended from.

www.hhmi.org...

Dr. Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, says that there
is no evidence so far that would distinguish DNA from one race as opposed to
any other.

www.newton.dep.anl.gov...

[edit on 10-2-2007 by etshrtslr]

seems a bit outdated then
currently dna can determine from which part of which continent your ancestors came from

DNAPrint.com) can estimate what proportions of all your ancestors, not just your purely male and female lineages, came from each continent. DNAPrint's "autosomal DNA" testing service can tell you how much of your ancestry is from sub-Saharan Africa and how much from Europe, for example. On the other hand, by focusing on just the male and female lines, Kittles' African Ancestry test can give the most detailed results about where these particular ancestors came from within Africa.

www.racesci.org...
this is from an organisation that uses DNA to determine a persons racial origin location
it deals primarily with afrcian americans

link to wikipedia article on pre-columbian trans-oceanic travel

Some people continue to believe that pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact may have occurred because such voyages were technically quite possible. After all, the only essential requirements for a successful trans-oceanic trip are a boat that can withstand the open ocean weather for a few months, and means to store or obtain enough food and water to keep the crew alive for that duration. The historical and experimental evidence gathered over the last few decades shows that these requirements could have been met even in remote antiquity, millennia before Columbus's time. This circumstantial evidence includes reliable records of several maritime trips of comparable distance, and modern attempts to retrace possible contact routes with reproductions of ancient boats. While these reports and experiments are only speculative, they do open up the question of such contacts.

Linguistic evidence has demonstrated that Madagascar, for example, was settled by Austronesian peoples from Indonesia. Their navigators were able to cross the Indian Ocean and large sections of the Pacific by the early 1st millennium.

In the 19th century, a Japanese junk lost its mast and rudder in a typhoon on its way to Edo, was carried by sea currents across the Northern Pacific, and reached the coast of Washington State 14 months later. One of the survivors, Otokichi, became a famous interpreter.

In 1982, Brazilian newspapers reported that fragments of amphorae had been recovered by professional treasure hunter and underwater archaeologist Robert Frank Marx, from the bottom of Guanabara Bay, in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Elizabeth Lyding Mill of the University of Massachusetts has reportedly identified the finds as being Roman, manufactured at Kouass (Dehar Jedid) in Morocco, and dated them to the 3rd century. A bottom survey by Harold E. Edgerton a pioneer in the field from MIT located what seemed to be remains of two disintegrating ships.

Further proof that trans-oceanic travel was possible pre-columbian?

The researchers claim that Abubakari's fleet of pirogues, loaded with men and women, livestock, food and drinking water, departed from what is the coast of present-day Gambia.
They are gathering evidence that in 1312 Abubakari II landed on the coast of Brazil in the place known today as Recife.

There seems to be enough evidence to suggest that trans-oceanic crossings were possible as early as the first millenium.

When we are talking about such huge masses of time, such as the thousands of years, (at least), that man has been on Earth, and, given our nature to spread out, and attempt to do whatever comes to mind, (whether logical or not), one glaring truth ends up staring us in the face:
If something could have possibly happened, it probably has happened.
We are talking about millions of people, throughout time, trotting here and there, some, without any real working knowledge of what they are attempting to do, or the materials needed to do so.
Chance, madness, logic, strength, weakness, all these factors, and more, make the impossible, probable, and the improbable, possible.
Personally, the idea of distant cultures making it to the New World was never surprising, exotic or strange. Just buried.

I agree with you Horrificus. There are so many possibilities its almost mind blowing. I believe that mankind could travel to places by chance not knowing where they were going or get lost and show up on a foreign shore. A very interesting topic

seems a bit outdated then

I dont think so.

At best its inconclusive unless you have some other evidence.



[edit on 10-2-2007 by etshrtslr]

To stick to the topic, there's one connection between the Ancient and the New world I'm surprised hasn't been up here. The fact that traces of tobacco and coca has been found in Egyptian mummies.

I do believe the findings are scientific, but I'm sure Marduk will tell us all about THAT.

Anybody else got info on it? I only remember it from the Discovery channel some (10?) years ago.

About the Olmecs I've noticed facial similarities with Khmer. Take a look at the sculptures of Anchor Wat. Same features.

I object myself to the scorn of Marduk, (had it before) --> --but I do respect your knowledge, man.

Ah well in this case its kind of occhams razor
these traces were taken from a mummy hair sample
there are plenty of other plants that produce an alkaloid the same as coc aine native to Africa
the levels of tobacco detected are also problematic
people don't eat tobacco
so you are unlikely to find it in a hair sample unless it is from tobacco smoke and this only shows up as nicotine residue which once again can be found in many plants grown locally
and as the mummies tested were not collected in a vacuum and people were smoking around them the whole time you have to ignore the tobacco nicotine evidence completely

so it comes down really to belief
do you think the Pharoahs had access to coc aine
imo it would be really obvious if the did
there would be lots of egyptian texts mentioning the Pharoah as a coke head though of course they probably wouldn't word it like that
"the great Pharoah this day took two measurings of the white powder of Horus and then challenged all the temple guards to a fight"
maybe ?

the real problem with this analysis was that no one has ever been able to replicate it
and thats the test of science I'm afraid
not only do you have to have a result
but it must be able to be replicated to prove it

you also need to look at the environment of egypt and compare it to the environment in which coc aine grows naturally
a coca plant would last about ten seconds in the Egyptian environment
far better to stick to opium if youre in the ancient world and need a fix
that grows all over the place
or cannabis if you need a quick high, that grows pretty easily as well as no doubt many of the posters here could personally attest

we know from archaeology that the ancient world was into these two substances
the earliest recipes for beer contain it
and the very best thing
in ancient Sumer the beer was free and subsidised 100% by the King
Only one drawback
you could be executed for public drunkeness



[edit on 11-2-2007 by Marduk]

A limited amount of these materials could be explained if they were given in small quantity as tribute, gifts, etc.

It is hard to explain the Mexican Tobacco Beetle remains in the mummy of Ramses II as a simple anomaly.
files.abovetopsecret.com...


As with so many "perks" of rule, maybe these recreational substances were reserved for the "Ruling Class". But, it seems very unlikely that ALL of these substances could have crossed such a distance without the aid of human travelers.

It is hard to explain the Mexican Tobacco Beetle remains in the mummy of Ramses II

yup extremely hard to explain
especially as there is no such thing as a mexican tobacco beetle

Originally posted by Marduk

It is hard to explain the Mexican Tobacco Beetle remains in the mummy of Ramses II

yup extremely hard to explain
especially as there is no such thing as a mexican tobacco beetle

Holy Crap.
Except that there is. (Lasioderma serricorne ):

creatures.ifas.ufl.edu...

ars.usda.gov...

www.cigaraficionado.com...

www.bioone.org...(2006)60%5B291%3AOOTMBO%5D2.0.CO%3B2

hey horrificus, could also be the mexican bean beetle (Deloyala guttata).


Doesnt specify here wether it feeds on Tobacco or not, though i guess Tobacco would come under the heading of various weeds.

The foliage of garden beans such as snap, kidney, pinto, and lima are preferred, but Mexican bean beetles can also be serious pests of soybeans. The beetles also feed on alfalfa, clover, peanut, okra, eggplant, squash, and various weeds.

Potato beetles are also located throughout the US and Mexico and feed on tobacco plants among other things. source

Potatoes are the preferred host for the Colorado potato beetle, but it may feed and survive on a number of other plants in the nightshade family: eggplant, tomato, pepper, tobacco, ground cherry, horse-nettle, common nightshade, belladonna, thorn apple, henbane, and its first recorded host plant: buffalo-bur.

True "potato beetles" are members of the beetle genus Leptinotarsa, with 32 species in North America, including Mexico; 12 species in the continental United States, including two species in Florida (Arnett 2000). The most notable is the Colorado potato beetle, Leptinotarsa decemlineata (Say), found in Florida and most of the United States, and introduced into Europe and parts of Asia. It is a serious pest of potatoes and other solanaceous plants.

Holy Crap.
Except that there is. (Lasioderma serricorne ):
.

err ok
this beetle exists
but its distribution is global
at no time is it described as being native to mexico
I have spent some time looking for evidence of this claim Horrificus
and the only place its mentioned is extremely dubious sites that don't link to any solid evidence and repeat what was said on the earlier link often with exactly the same wording
about the weirdest thing about him is that he had peppercorns shoved up his nose
but this most likely was done to stop what was left of his brains falling out

hey horrificus, could also be the mexican bean beetle (Deloyala guttata).

clutching at straws Mojo, clutching at straws


[edit on 11-2-2007 by Marduk]

Bit more info

Tobacco Flea Beetle (Epitrix hirtipennis)

The tobacco flea beetle is a brownish-black, hard-shelled beetle about 1/16 inch (1.5 mm) in length. Adult flea beetles chew small round holes into and through the tobacco leaf. They attack the young plants in the seed-beds almost as soon as they come up. After the plants are set in the field they continue feeding and this feeding can weaken the plants or kill the buds. Damage may continue throughout the growing season even on mature leaves. Flea beetles lay their eggs on the soil and the delicate, white larvae feed on the roots of the plant.

link

The " tobacco flea-beetle " (Epitrix parvula, Fabr.) is a small active beetle, the larvae of which attack the roots, while the adult beetles eat holes in the leaves. The latter is the more serious, as in addition to the actual damage done by the beetle the holes afford entrance to fungus spores,

The Tobacco flea beetle and the potato beetle were indiginous to South, Central and North America. I can see how a crop of tobacco dried out and transported could have contained any number of these sorts of insects. Wether that is what happened or not is debateable. I dont believe that they eat straw though.

hmmm
you know theres thousands of different beetles that it could have been
it would be far better if you researched the source of this claim in the first place
as you aren't listening to a word I say I'm sure that in the interests of knowing the truth you would find it absolutely neccessary to find a report of the Beetle being found in the hand of Ramses II for yourself from a credible source
that is of course
if you do care about the truth
if not
here

There are over 350,000 different known beetle species worldwide and new species are being discovered all the time. Beetles make up 40% of all insects and the number of beetle species is more than six times the number of all vertebrate species.

take your pick

I managed to find this detailed image of Ramses palm




[edit on 11-2-2007 by Marduk]

They are originally from South America.
So says the International Centre of Insect Physiology and Ecology.
I was going to load up my post with a ton of entries backing this up, but figured I would just use one from a solid source.

www.fao.org...

2.1.13 Anobiidae

Anobiids are cylindrical pubescent beetles, 1-9 mm in length. The head is usually concealed from above by the hoodlike pronotum. Most anobiids live in dry vegetable materials or bore in wood, while others are fungus feeders. About 1000 species of Anobiidae are known, most of which are found in the tropics. The following are two widespread storage pests belonging to this family.

The Cigarette Beetle: Lasioderma serricorne (Fabricius) is a common pest of stored cereals, cocoa beans, tobacco, ground nut, peas, beans, flours and other foodstuffs. Originally from South America, it is now found in most of the warmer parts of the world. This species is notorious for attacking a wide range of intact cereal grains, pulse seeds and food stuffs.

This is where they came from. South America.


Also:

From Brinham Young U

www.farmsresearch.com...

To the amazement of some scientists and the consternation of others, chemical evidence of tobacco has been found in ancient Egyptian mummies, although tobacco was supposed to be unknown in the Old World prior to Columbus. First, fragments of tobacco were found deep in the abdominal cavity of the 3200-year-old mummy of Pharaoh Ramses II while it was being studied in a European museum. Some skeptics immediately concluded that this had to be due to modern contamination in the museum. This American plant could not possibly have been known in Egypt, they insisted. In 1992 physical scientists in Germany used sophisticated laboratory instrumentation to test nine other Egyptian mummies. They found chemical residues of tobacco, coca (another American plant, the source of coc aine), and the Asian native hashish (the source of marijuana) in the hair, soft tissues, skin, and bones of eight of the mummies. These traces included cotinine, a chemical whose presence means that the tobacco had been consumed and metabolized while the deceased person was alive. (The ninth mummy contained coca and hashish residues but not tobacco.) Dates of the corpses according to historical records from Egypt ranged from 1070 BC to AD 395,43 indicating that these drugs were continuously available to some Egyptians for no less than 1,450 years.

[edit on 2/11/2007 by Horrificus]

These two parts below from a research grant for Romeo H. Hristov and
Santiago Genovés. source

Recent discoveries of Roman settlement and various Phoenician, Berber, and Egyptian objects and inscriptions in Tenerife and Lanzarote (Canary Archipelago), proves the existence of regular, although not very active, maritime contacts between Europe/Africa and the Canary islands from V BC to IV AD centuries. These contacts make highly likely the assumption that some accidental/drift voyages across the middle (and the south) Atlantic may have happened during antiquity in the same way as they happened between the XVI and XX centuries.

Excerpt

Presently one hundred ninety-six Mesoamerican artifacts with representations of personages with apparent "Caucasoid" and "Negroid" racial characteristics have been registered. We hope that in the near future the mentioned data will permit more objective and better founded evaluation of their implications in the discussion of the Pre-Columbian Trans-Atlantic contacts.

Paper by John L. Sorenson1 and Carl L. Johannessen2 detailing their evidence for pre-columbian trans oceanic migration of Flora and Fauna. This is quite a long paper so i have only pulled a few examples out of it. It makes for fascinating reading and there are multiple examples of flora and fauna transfer across the sea. John L Sorenson was emeritus professor of anthropology at Brigham Young University and Carl L Johannessen was emeritus professor of biogeography in the Department of Geography at the University of Oregon. Further information regarding these gentlemens qualifications can be found at the bottom of the link.

This distribution could not have been due merely to natural transfer mechanisms, nor can it be explained by early human migrations to the New World via the Bering Strait route. Well over half the plant transfers consisted of flora of American origin that spread to Eurasia or Oceania, some at surprisingly early dates.
The only plausible explanation for these findings is that a considerable number of transoceanic voyages in both directions across both major oceans were completed between the 7th millennium BC and the European age of discovery. Our growing knowledge of early maritime technology and its accomplishments gives us confidence that vessels and nautical skills capable of these long-distance travels were developed by the times indicated. These voyages put a new complexion on the extensive Old World/New World cultural parallels that have long been controversial.

This section below refers only to pre-columbian evidence of Oceania or Southeast Asian migration to the Americas.

If a date for the parasite in the Americas before European discovery could be proven, he observed, then the only explanation for the parasite in the New World would have to be that it arrived anciently via infected humans who had crossed the ocean—"storm-tossed fishermen," he ventured.
His reasoning sprang from facts about the life cycle of this worm. In one stage it must inhabit warm, moist soil (in a climate no colder than that of North Carolina today). At a later stage, the worms from the soil penetrate a human host's body and settle in the digestive tract. Immigrants who came to the New World in slow stages via Beringia would have arrived hookworm-free because the cold ambient conditions would have killed the parasite in the soil (Soper 1927; Ferreira et al. 1988).

This section below deals with the nautical prowess of pre-columbian cultures.

In Peru, balsa rafts were in use along the shore by 2500 BC and ocean-going craft well before the 1st century BC (Norton 1987). Alsar (1973; 1974) demonstrated the feasibility of crossing the Pacific from east to west by sailing a fleet of three Ecuadorean-built rafts with a crew of 12 over 9,200 miles to Australia (the rafts even exchanged crew members at rendezvous points en route). Various forms of such rafts, in addition to large canoes, were used throughout much of Oceania (Clissold 1959). Our present state of knowledge about ancient nautics does not rule out voyages that could account for the early presence of amaranth, maize, the peanut, and other crops, as well as the hookworm, in both Asia and the Americas.

Excerpt

The discovery of coca (Erythroxylon sp.) in Egypt was even more shocking. In western South America its leaves have been chewed for its chemical effect for more than 4,000 years (Plowman 1984; Shady S. 1997), although outside the Andean area where it is grown there is little evidence for consuming it. By what route the plant reached Egypt is unclear. Attempts to explain how its chemical signature came to appear in the Egyptian mummies without involving New World contacts seem outlandish.
About as strange as coca's use in the Near East is the fact that Peruvian mummies dating to before AD 200 have been found to contain both physiologically processed residues of tobacco and coca, as well as hashish (Cannabis sativa). Hashish is an ancient in the Old World (Parsche et al. 1993).
Despite the discomfort caused by having a paradigm upset, we must accept that the evidence is convincing for ingesting tobacco, coca, and hashish, at least in Egypt and in Andean South America by the beginning of the 1st millennium BC. The only explanations for that distribution involve voyages across the ocean.

I'll post more after ive read through the second part though it seems to me that there is sufficient evidence already for some type of migration or cultural exchange across the oceans between the old and the new worlds.


edit to fix second link.



[edit on 11/2/07 by mojo4sale]

[edit on 11/2/07 by mojo4sale]

www.hallofmaat.com...
its quite long
but if you don't read all of it
you won't know will you