I'm Coming Clean on Fictional ET's

Originally posted by knows_but_doesnt
As far as the comment about Sleeper's thread, the guy is an admitted author. I think stories are great, but I don't believe they belong on the main page of ATS Aliens & UFOs. For example, a new user that has just had an experience comes to ATS to poke around, then he reads about Sleeper having sex and bowling with his alien buddies. Away he goes, remaining silent because he thinks we are all nuts. The UFO community receives enough mockery without blatant garbage like that.

At times I've wondered how many people are here to seek answers, vs. lonely people using this board as their personal diary or entertainment, or people so caught up in just stirring things up because they only know how to live in chaos. Again, maybe just a product of their own reality or experience

That is exactly what I've been trying to say ever since i arrived here. I even started a topic on it months ago.

The UFO community comes with a stigma these days. One of tin hats, dimly-lit rooms with Star-trek posters lining the walls, mental instability and hoaxes. It has become something of an automatic reaction in peoples minds, a conditioning if you will, to regard anyone interested in UFOlogy as an eccentric crackpot.

I think that the vast majority of those in the field are far from that. Most are simply curious as to what these objects are. Open minded, fair skeptics, fair believers. They make up the core of the community. It is, however, not the part of the community the general public and media cares about. They still treat all of us as the stereotype they created a long time ago.

If we ever want to change that stereotype, we HAVE TO weed out the stories, hoaxes, attention seekers and mentally ill from our community and lay a basis in fact. Disregard and debunk the hoaxes, analyze every image and video to the last pixel. Discussions should be focused on theorizing on the evidence we find is genuine, discussing the validity of other presented evidence, and debunking it if need be, not focused on fanciful stories of alien adventures or abductions.

I know this is quite a rant, and to save myself from getting the ban, this isn't directed directly at Sleeper (who seems to have an immunity around here), it is directed at the entirety of the UFO community.

[edit on 7-2-2007 by fooffstarr]

Originally posted by StrangeVision
I think the 'Is sleeper genuine thread' was shut down by Majic.

WHAT?!
doh!

I had no idea... Sorry about that.

OK heres' the deal, this thread then becomes the defacto " is sleeper genuine thread" that's fine.

BUT there will be NO personal attacks, mean spirited speculation, envy ridden rants, well you can read the TAC and get the idea...

Carry on.

Springer...

[edit on 2-7-2007 by Springer]

There is another disease at work and that is that the skeptics think that anyone taking an interest buys it lock, stock and barrel.

Originally posted by rdube02
What qualifies anyone to tell you what is real?

Nothing! Irrespective of how it is presented or by whom which is why I am so amazed when so many are angered by a story which they all seem to agree is BS. There are inconsistencies and lots of other things, members point out these issues but seem unable to leave the conclusion they have drawn. If I decide something is BS, why would I be bothered one iota whether it was actually true or not if I was already convinced it wasn't? Yet some members carry on as though their free will is being raped.

Originally posted by rdube02
Mental illness is a very real and scary thing. And yes - the mentally ill truly believe everyone else are the ones who are mentally ill.

I think this statement is so far off the mark it's not funny. Rather than writing a ranting thesis on mental illness, i'll simply ask if you stand by this?

Originally posted by rdube02
Where do we draw the line?

"We" do not draw the line anywhere. This is for the individual. If someone wants to be a part of a "we" to draw the line, I would think they are a follower which brings me to what may be confusing me...

These threads seem to be some sort of skeptics group validation. You read the nonsense, don't believe it for a second, it's far too ridiculous to be true but despite there being enough inconsitencies to make a believer question it, the skeptics still march on trying to decide if it is true or not. Why is there a need for a discussion to decide what you already know? Are you really undecided? or are we back on the validation path?

Originally posted by rdube02
What makes your reality and my reality true?

Perception. Bias. Environment. Ignorance. Belief.

Originally posted by rdube02
And what defines which parts of our individual realities are not true

The individual upon experiencing new information, but still likely to carry some bias and ignorance. We all accept lots of things as fact that aren't, they may be small insignicant things but I guarantee you that everyone without exception currently carries many thoughts that could be proven untrue and many that can't but it doesn't change our reality in the here and now.

If I want to read what he writes, do I have to believe it to read it? What does this make me? am I deluded? gullible? stupid? perhaps none of those or all of them. And whichever one I am, will everyone hold the same opinion? The point is, anyone can be labelled deluded by someone else, why does that make it true?

If this thread fills with pages of people giving a WATS, how does this help promote the discussion about the lines you draw when the the respondees are not responding to your post but the general message that sleeper is deluded. We could also have the discussion without aiming it at an individual, I don't think that slant will help the balance but hope springs eternal.

Originally posted by rdube02
\
By the way - the issue here isn't that that kind of thread garners attention...the issue is that there are so many people willing to accept an alternate reality, and discuss it as an absolute truth, without any kind of supporting evidence.
|
-Ry

[edit on 7-2-2007 by rdube02]

Says who Ry? Who ever said anyone accepted what he's writing as an "alternate reality"?

I haven't seen a single person in that thread (admittedly I haven't had time to look at it in several days) make that claim or state they believe it is an absolute ANYTHING.

What I see are a bunch of people enjoying a friendly conversation about a VERY strange telling.



Springer...

Close Encounters Of The Thread Kind

Originally posted by rdube02
That's right it was - but Majic said that it was only because sleeper was being discussed, and not the topic of his thread - so I'm assuming if we can stick to discussing reality vs. delusion (and how we individually define that) - we should be cool.

Yes, I closed the thread because I thought it was turning into a a "bash sleeper/bash people who believe/don't believe sleeper" thread, and that's really not on topic for this forum.

I know it can be hard to separate the messenger from the message in cases like this, but it's really important to do so.

I could reopen the other thread if we want, but a fresh start might be better.

To be as clear as I possibly can: there is nothing wrong with criticizing sleeper's claims, and there's nothing wrong with believing them, either.

That's for each member to decide, and no one has any right to dictate otherwise.

Opinions and analysis of any member's claims are always welcome, provided they are offered in accordance with the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use.

If you can analyze sleeper's claims without resorting to personal insults of sleeper or anyone else, you're golden.

That's all we're asking.





P.S. Personally, I'm very skeptical of sleeper's claims, but as long as he's a member here, I'm committed to ensuring that he's treated with respect.

Every Member Deserves Respect.®

Originally posted by fooffstarrIf we ever want to change that stereotype, we HAVE TO weed out the stories, hoaxes, attention seekers and mentally ill from our community and lay a basis in fact. Disregard and debunk the hoaxes, analyze every image and video to the last pixel. Discussions should be focused on theorizing on the evidence we find is genuine, discussing the validity of other presented evidence, and debunking it if need be, not focused on fanciful stories of alien adventures or abductions.

If believing the prophecies which a 93 year old Native American told me makes me mentally ill, then, please, send for the strong armed boys in white, because I do believe him.

If believing in a God/Creator is wrong-headed because it is a fanciful story, then i need to be 'weeded out', because I do believe it.

If believing in the spiritual is considered faulty because the evidence cannot be "theorized to be genuine" nor sufficiently debunked through analysis, then I suppose, by your reckoning, all such things should be expunged from ATS and myself banned for it.

Why stop there?

I, for one, have experienced perhaps not an abduction or a meeting with an alien as sleeper has, but instead an OOBE and would swear to that on my mothers ashes if required by you.

If I described that moment in great detail and went further than that by expressing how it changed my life, then should I also be hounded throughout the forums of ATS as if I was some sort of whipping boy for all thing 'unprovable', 'New Agey' and fit only to be "weeded out of (quote) "our community"?

Just asking...



fixed BBCode

[edit on 7/2/07 by masqua]

I still don't get why people are bashing sleeper? is it because he is gaining attention or becoming popular?

His first statement on his blog reads:

A day with an Extraterrestrial

The story that follows is written as a screenplay. The names are fiction; the rest is based on real events, believe it or not.

I don't see what the big deal is he told everyone in the begining believe it or not. Period, statement made.

Originally posted by masqua
If believing the prophecies which a 93 year old Native American told me makes me mentally ill, then, please, send for the strong armed boys in white, because I do believe him.

If believing in a God/Creator is wrong-headed because it is a fanciful story, then i need to be 'weeded out', because I do believe it.

If believing in the spiritual is considered faulty because the evidence cannot be "theorized to be genuine" nor sufficiently debunked through analysis, then I suppose, by your reckoning, all such things should be expunged from ATS and myself banned for it.

Why stop there?

I, for one, have experienced perhaps not an abduction or a meeting with an alien as sleeper has, but instead an OOBE and would swear to that on my mothers ashes if required by you.

If I described that moment in great detail and went further than that by expressing how it changed my life, then should I also be hounded throughout the forums of ATS as if I was some sort of whipping boy for all thing 'unprovable', 'New Agey' and fit only to be "weeded out of (quote) "our community"?

Just asking...

fixed BBCode

[edit on 7/2/07 by masqua]

By our community i mean the UFO community specifically, not ATS. I thought i made that fairly clear. There is the place for things like OOBEs, and stories of similar things, and that is the Paranormal forums and the Spirituality forums. I am a frequent visitor to both of those as well

What i'm trying to say is that UFOlogy specifically HAS some solid ground to work on. It is the fact that some people seem more rapt up in the baseless stories than the facts that gets me angry.

I apologize if you took offense to my post. I wasn't saying ALL strange things are 'fanciful stories', because i have indeed experienced some strange things myself, i was just saying that stories of that kind in the UFO community tarnishes it's reputation in the eyes of the public.

I read sleeper's thread and sleeper's blog and then thoroughly worked through this issue for myself. I reached a two-fold conclusion:

One) I don't think we should simply believe whatever someone says. It doesn't matter if a person says they own a dog or if they say they are carrying on intimate relations with aliens. Either statement, whether mundane or extraordinary, is suspect. This is the internet and people can say / be / do whatever they want without repercussion.

Two) It is completely unfair for me to demand proof of any claim made. There is no way that suitable proof could be provided for me through the medium of a discussion board. Pictures can be altered, documents can be faked, witnesses are unreliable. I can think of nothing that could possibly be presented at ATS that would really, truly, once and for all, absolutely prove any claim made.

So, while I don't have to believe all of the claims made on the internet I also shouldn't bother to ask for proof since I couldn't possible be satisfied with anything submitted as proof. I can either read the astounding claims of others or chose not to read them. If I read them I have to just take them for what they are worth and use my own judgement concerning their possible validity. Neither agreeing nor arguing with the author will accomplish anything.

edited spelling as always

[edit on 2/7/07 by wellwhatnow]

Originally posted by fooffstarr
There is the place for things like OOBEs, and stories of similar things, and that is the Paranormal forums and the Spirituality forums. I am a frequent visitor to both of those as well

Now you presume to tell us where posts belong on ATS? WHO are you again?

You may want to quit while you're behind here... You have utterly MISSED the point by attaching WAY TOO MUCH of what appears to be your own D-Ego to all this mate.

How about this, you let those who built the house "keep" the house in order and you try to LEARN and CONTRIBUTE?

Sound fair?

Springer...

First of all, my salutations to the OP, who opened up the question that lies at the heart of every subject discussed on ATS: not so much 'what is reality?', but 'how can we know what reality is?' Salutations also to yeahright, who I think clarified this point in his or her first post on the thread.

Unfortunately, we now seem to have got ourselves sidetracked into another discussion, something to do with someone called Sleeper.

I couldn't care less about this Sleeper, whoever he/she/it might be. I'm very interested in the original question raised by the OP. I'd love to see the thread return to that discussion.

If I may make a small contribution: perhaps one way of telling our model of reality is cockeyed is when we experience lots of cognitive dissonances when interacting with (whatever we think is) the real world. If we have to keep explaining all kinds of inconsistencies away, either to ourselves or to others, it's probably true to say that our model of reality is out of whack.

No doubt there are plenty of holes in that argument. In fact, I can see some of them myself. But I'll leave it to interested others to do the picking.

Originally posted by Springer

Originally posted by fooffstarr
There is the place for things like OOBEs, and stories of similar things, and that is the Paranormal forums and the Spirituality forums. I am a frequent visitor to both of those as well

Now you presume to tell us where posts belong on ATS? WHO are you again?

You may want to quit while you're behind here... You have utterly MISSED the point by attaching WAY TOO MUCH of what appears to be your own D-Ego to all this mate.

How about this, you let those who built the house "keep" the house in order and you try to LEARN and CONTRIBUTE?

Sound fair?

Springer...

Gah! Lay off! I'm not trying to be presumptuous or hostile. I'm not trying to tell you how to do your job!

I was simply trying to say that everything has it's place. Paranormal occurances etc have their own forum, a wandering Yeti has it's Mythical Beasts forum, and UFO's have this one.

I'm not good with words, and i apologize if it came out the wrong way, but there was no need for you to abuse me like you just did.

Originally posted by fooffstarr
\

I'm not good with words, and i apologize if it came out the wrong way, but there was no need for you to abuse me like you just did.

Now you're trying to insult my meager intelligence! For shame!

Look, this is pretty SIMPLE STUFF, everyone is WELCOME here, if they happen to have a fascinating tale to tell that does NOT involve trying to sell our Membership something or to recruit them for something then FAIR GO!

If you think the "UFO Community" is being damaged by people like sleeper then you TRULY are not "in the loop" on what's WRONG with the "UFO Community" IMHO.

It's not the people who are sharing their stories of amazement and hope, be they delusional flights of fancy or the reality us "plain folk" are too blind to see, that are hurting the "UFO Community" mate. I ASSURE YOU OF THAT.

To put yourself up as the arbiter of where data belongs on a site like ATS and then cry foul when one of the guys who has spent 10 plus hours a day helping to make it what it is, points out to you that we just might have a clue about this business is just more than I can swallow.

So, why don't you be you and you let sleeper and the MILLIONS of people who read these forums be whatever the hell they WANT to be without you (or anyone else for that matter) trying to "point them in the right direction". I am pretty dam sure they don't NEED it.

Really, the HEIGHT of arrogance is being RAPIDLY aproached here with this thread's direction...

Springer...

[edit on 2-8-2007 by Springer]

What i stated regarding the UFO community was MY OPINION, and i am not going to change that. That being said, i will ensure i word my opinion better next time around.

I'm not going to argue with you any further, because we clearly do not see eye to eye on this issue and I do not want to get banned for something i might say in anger.

I understand what you've said, and i apologize if it seems like I've been arrogant or presumptuous, but I just didn't mean it to come out that way. I have what i want to say in my head but when it comes out in text it reads a completely different way. That is why i was amazed at your response, because i truly didn't think or notice that i had said anything untoward.

I have great respect for ATS and it's staff. You are doing a great thing by having this forum here.

Originally posted by fooffstarr
What i stated regarding the UFO community was MY OPINION, and i am not going to change that.

Fair enough, I wouldn't want or expect you to.

Originally posted by fooffstarr
I do not want to get banned for something i might say in anger.

Long as you don't violate the TAC you can rip me a new one! That kind of thing (banned for what you think) doesn't happen here.

Originally posted by fooffstarr
I understand what you've said, and i apologize if it seems like I've been arrogant or presumptuous, but I just didn't mean it to come out that way. I have what i want to say in my head but when it comes out in text it reads a completely different way. That is why i was amazed at your response, because i truly didn't think or notice that i had said anything untoward.

I believe you. Matter of fact, I have the same problem some times, I know EXACTLY what I mean to say, but no matter how many different ways/times I type it, it never hits the bulls eye when I read it back.

No worries then.

My only point is this whole mentality of "saving the Membership" (from whatever) smacks of arrogance and or utter envy, both of which I find disgusting.

Not saying that YOU are of that mind set, just saying I find it horrid, which could, and probably does have much to do with the apparent severity of my response.

Springer...


[edit on 2-8-2007 by Springer]

Originally posted by Springer
If you think the "UFO Community" is being damaged by people like sleeper then you TRULY are not "in the loop" on what's WRONG with the "UFO Community" IMHO.

Springer....we're trying to keep the direction of this thread on the issue - the line we draw as fair skeptics (which I've always considered you one of) in determining what makes up the fabric of this thing we call reality...and what doesn't. You appear to keep mentioning a certain member. Just a completely friendly observation!

To answer your question above - there are certainly people who obviously accept a truth about those claims...you can see it every time someone opens a post with:

"Yo....could you ask Milton about the future of humanity..." or some such query.

You see - some people take it very seriously...and completely skip over the part of the process where you make sure something is true before you move ahead and continue building a huge house on top of a cracked foundation.

I believe what was stated just a few posts up is very true - every hoax, outrageous claim, and delusional fantasy further chips away at the credibility of the entire field of ufology....oh heck...we've been here before haven't we? You and I have had such conversations, even privately, about delusional people. You personally have seen what happens when people dive into this field and suddenly the paranoia, fear, and "borderline" personalities crack.... You know this Springer. Of all people - you've seen it.

So when I take issue with entertaining the delusional fantasies of individuals - as entertaining as that can be - it is still doing a disservice to those within the field of ufology who want nothing more than to see the day when this field of study is as respected and taken as seriously as physics, biology, astronomy, etc...

Out of body experiences? Now you're talking - there's evidence out there to prove that...let's go down that road...absolutely. My alien friend who lands in the park and takes me on fantastic adventures through space...it's a great story...lots of fun sure. But when people start asking "Milton" for advice... there go those alarms...

Respectfully,
-Ry



[edit on 8-2-2007 by rdube02]

The study of this phenomena is a lot like this> |---------------| On my monitor that is a two inch distance, on your monitor it may be more less or the same depending on “outside” factors, I say the line is two inches “you” say it is more or less, I can prove my assertion, as can you, does it detract that the line is there, No, it's still a line. Does telling tall tales still prevent it from being a line? Does it deceive anyone that it is not a line? The line is there, you can see it, it's the distance that is arbitrary. Dealing with ephemeral ideas is as arbitrary as the distance of that line, each person will believe it or not, some will say “he said it was so so it must be”, others will want “proof”.

I have 4 nickels, you have two dimes, change your paradigms for mine

Originally posted by rdube02
Out of body experiences? Now you're talking - there's evidence out there to prove that...let's go down that road...absolutely. My alien friend who lands in the park and takes me on fantastic adventures through space...it's a great story...lots of fun sure. But when people start asking "Milton" for advice... there go those alarms...

I would grant a difference between meeting alien beings during an OOBE and walking over to them after they have landed 'in the park', as you point out.

The problem is in finding the 'seperation of church and state', if you'll allow me that as a relevant example.

In the Aliens and UFO forum, we need to be able to accomodate both, IMHO. I have consistently agonized over the cross-bleeding between paranormal activity and alien abduction stories. I would like nothing better than to be able to say with certainty that "this belongs in the Paranormal forum and this belongs in A&U".

But. it's not that simple, if you'll read these two examples of 'crossover';

www.qtm.net...

Peterson's plan is simple. He will undertake a systematic comparison
between the OBE and the AAE. He uses a book by researchers Gabbard and
Twemlow, _With the Eyes of the Mind: An Empirical Analysis of
Out-of-Body States_, as his reference for the common features of the
OBE. He uses _Abductions_ by Dr John Mack as his source of information
on the common features of the AAE.

Gabbard and Twemlow list 19 features that turn up time and again in OBE
reports and provide a figures for the frequency with which that feature
was reported in their sample.


Number Common Features of OBEs %
1. Experience was more real than a dream 94
2. OBE Body similar to physical body 76
3. Same environment as physical body 62
4. Felt a sense of energy 55
5. Wanted to return to body 54
6. Felt able to pass through objects 50
7. Felt vibrations in body 38
8. Part of awareness was still in body 37
9. Was aware of presence of beings 37
10. Heard noises in early stages 37
11. Experienced a change in time sense 33
12. Saw a brilliant white light 30
13. Felt the presence of guides or helpers 26
14. Dark tunnel with white light at end 26
15. Felt attached to phyical body 21
16. Felt able to touch objects 18
17. Felt that others were aware of them 14
18. Felt a sense of border or limit 14
19. Experienced panoramic vision 14

www.scifi.com...


Sleep Paralysis

This paralysis during sleep is almost always accompanied by a quickened heartbeat, breathing problems and a feeling of profound fear. The victim is conscious of his surroundings, but is trapped in what scientists call "hypnagogic hallucination." This is the twilight zone between being awake and being asleep; during this time our dreams seem very realistic.

For many people, the first sign of sleep paralysis is a strange sound. Victims have compared it with moaning or humming; footsteps; the sound of an engine; or screaming. The body might start shaking, and, in some cases, the body even begins to tremble.

Strange lights are perceived to appear in the room; sometimes these lights take the form of flashes, stars or illuminated objects. Sometimes it seems as though the whole room is being lit by a spooky sort of light, or that objects are surrounded by a peculiar aura or strange sparks.

But the most frightening aspect of paralysis during sleep is the feeling of someone else being present. Sufferers might not see this visitor, and they know in their rational mind that there is no reason for fear; the sensation remains terrifying nonetheless. In many cases, victims of sleep paralysis do see an entity — sufferers' eyes often are open during the experience. Observed entities sometimes are seen changing form. They might initially resemble an animal, a humanoid, a demon or an alien, and they can change shape seemingly without any effort.

Ockams razor, anyone?

Originally posted by wellwhatnow.............

So, while I don't have to believe all of the claims made on the internet I also shouldn't bother to ask for proof since I couldn't possible be satisfied with anything submitted as proof. I can either read the astounding claims of others or chose not to read them. If I read them I have to just take them for what they are worth and use my own judgement concerning their possible validity. Neither agreeing nor arguing with the author will accomplish anything.

edited spelling as always

[edit on 2/7/07 by wellwhatnow]

Excelent post !!!

Now on this thread I should add this....

Fair skeptic? thats a very nice way to say I dont believe, what I dont want to/ -dont understand/ -dont care /-dont sound right in my opinion.
Fairs Skeptic.... there is no such thing is like being half pregnant!!

Perception is a nasty friend and most of what we percieve as real, indiscutible thruth can be proven wrong, for example let say a "fair skeptic" had no education and formal training and was asked about where he lives, we would def, say that earth is flat and upside UP and that the sun revolves around the earth..THAT IS EVERYBODYS perception, but we know that those "illusions" are the result of knowledge we have gathered for centuries. Another example, who decided that the north pole was the north and all maps should be like that? what if Aliens came an told is "you know you are the only fools in the universe who have everything upside down" ... see?

I believe in God, can I prove that / he /she / him exists? NO.

I was not going to write in this thread because is just a feble attempt to discredit THE WHOLE SITE, this is a conspiracy/weird info/strange phenomena and what not site, its clear that there will be things that are written completelly by disinfo agent, wackos, people who still think they live in the midle ages etc etc, is UP FOR THE READER to THINK and make up his/her mind. Simply put, nobody here needs a "fair skeptics" police, there will be people always who will embrace the weirdest of themes, just as other will demand talking directly to God (with written and video proof) just to believe.
I endorse neither of those groups because I have my own criteria and my own mind to make.

Searching for the thruth is a risky endeavor that REQUIRES that we should be open to ALL posibilities even the most weird ones and the most ridicule or stupid, because history has proven that sometimes those stupid hypotesis turn to be REAL.


[edit on 8-2-2007 by kix]

Originally posted by thedigirati
The study of this phenomena is a lot like this> |---------------| On my monitor that is a two inch distance, on your monitor it may be more less or the same depending on “outside” factors, I say the line is two inches “you” say it is more or less, I can prove my assertion, as can you, does it detract that the line is there, No, it's still a line. Does telling tall tales still prevent it from being a line? Does it deceive anyone that it is not a line?

I like the example...and allow me to expand on it for a bit...

Say a tall tale is told about a scientist who was in the process of taking linear measurements and was emailed a top secret document from an anonymous government source. This top secret document explained to him that government alien contacts have revealed that we've been measuring linear distance all wrong...since the beginning of....well since humanity began measuring straight lines. This document reveals the "correct" formula. You do not measure it from end to end, but since space-time is actually circular in nature, you are suppose to take a string, loop it in a slight arc from one end of the line to the other, and then the distance of the looped string itself is the true length of the line. Let's say they call this document the MJ13 explanation...part of a project called Project Majic Science.

Now most physicists (even theoretical "bleeding edge" physicists) obviously would scoff at the horrendous lack of scientific postulation present in the government document...however you can be sure that a group of people would accept this secret document. They would discuss it...they would forward it around among colleagues and friends... This viral meme would spread from one colleague and acquaintance to another until it has properly infected enough people so that one day...as a college professor is performing vector calculations, a student will raise his hand and express his concern that the MJ13 explanation calls into question the validity of the professor's calculations.

As the professor proceeds to explain that MJ13 was actually a hoax...it was a fabricated document...a tall tale essentially - the student scoffs at the professor and calls him a close minded cynical skeptic.

A poor allegory possibly...but I'm pretty sure the fair skeptics around these parts understand exactly what I'm talking about.

I admit to the poster above who accused us of trying to "validate" - that you hit it right on. That is absolutely what I was doing. As I was travelling through this wonderful forum - exploring all that it has to offer, I noticed that the fellow analysts who have always taken their magnifying glass to each leaf and flower - have gone curiously silent as of late. I noticed a strange imbalance, and in all honesty - I missed those folks for their logic, reason, and the balance that they bring to such a diverse place as this.

So yes...it was validation. It was a way for me to call out and say "hey...you guys still out there? I miss you..." - and based on the response, the PM's and the private emails I've received since this thread opened...I'm very pleased to be reassured that they are surely still hanging around these parts. It's just a good feeling to know that one is not alone in this wilderness.

Believe it or not I believe in things I can't see...I believe in god. But that is because I've uncovered enough evidence in my life to convince me of that. Am I open to debate that evidence with anyone who questions it? Sure...been there, done that. Being fair means being open minded to a new paradigm and new possibilities - and being skeptic means not keeping the mind so open that everything falls out. It's an important balance.

I would never deny those who want to have fun with flights of fancy and tall tales a thread to do that in. But those who like to pull out the magnifying glass and the microscope should not be denied a place to have discussion either. So thanks to Springer & Majic for keeping this thread open.

Cheers,
-Ry

[edit on 8-2-2007 by rdube02]