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Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
I've said it once, twice, three, four times... and it seems like it needs to be said again...
The truth is important. It can survive scrutiny. It can tolerate skepticism. It can recover from harsh questions.
However, AboveTopSecret.com does not tolerate impolite, rude, crass, and demeaning contributions from our members, no matter what the topic. If any of us are unable to provide the all important skeptical side of an analysis without maintaining respect and decorum, then we should not participate.
Certainly, we do not, nor should we ever, suffer the likes of hoaxers and pranksters. But this is AboveTopSecret.com damn it... we're supposed to be doing it better here... we're supposed to be setting the standard.
I can be polite to 1,000 people posting improbable stories if it means I find 1 that is probable. Can you?
I personally don't care about the validity of Sleeper's story. I personally care very much that people who believe they've had extraordinary experiences be provided an open environment in which to share them.
Politely question: yes. Respectfully disagree: yes. Examine discrepancies: yes. Insult & deride: no.
Originally posted by fooffstarr
That is exactly what I've been trying to say ever since i arrived here. I even started a topic on it months ago.
The UFO community comes with a stigma these days. One of tin hats, dimly-lit rooms with Star-trek posters lining the walls, mental instability and hoaxes. It has become something of an automatic reaction in peoples minds, a conditioning if you will, to regard anyone interested in UFOlogy as an eccentric crackpot.
You have voted fooffstarr for the Way Above Top Secret award.
I think that the vast majority of those in the field are far from that. Most are simply curious as to what these objects are. Open minded, fair skeptics, fair believers. They make up the core of the community. It is, however, not the part of the community the general public and media cares about. They still treat all of us as the stereotype they created a long time ago.
If we ever want to change that stereotype, we HAVE TO weed out the stories, hoaxes, attention seekers and mentally ill from our community and lay a basis in fact. Disregard and debunk the hoaxes, analyze every image and video to the last pixel. Discussions should be focused on theorizing on the evidence we find is genuine, discussing the validity of other presented evidence, and debunking it if need be, not focused on fanciful stories of alien adventures or abductions.
I know this is quite a rant, and to save myself from getting the ban, this isn't directed directly at Sleeper (who seems to have an immunity around here), it is directed at the entirety of the UFO community.
[edit on 7-2-2007 by fooffstarr]
Originally posted by rdube02
I would never deny those who want to have fun with flights of fancy and tall tales a thread to do that in. But those who like to pull out the magnifying glass and the microscope should not be denied a place to have discussion either.
Originally posted by rdube02
Originally posted by StrangeVision
I think the 'Is sleeper genuine thread' was shut down by Majic.
T
By the way - the issue here isn't that that kind of thread garners attention...the issue is that there are so many people willing to accept an alternate reality, and discuss it as an absolute truth, without any kind of supporting evidence.
[edit on 7-2-2007 by rdube02]
Originally posted by knows_but_doesnt
It's turned into a giant "Dear Abby" or "Ask Ann Landers" type thread. To me, again in my humble opinion, it makes this board look like a joke. I'm not saying there is not a place for his story, but on the front page of "Aliens and UFOs" where we are all trying to post facts, news, pictures etc?
I guess what scares me the most is this guy actually has an audience! He lost me somewhere between the Alien bowling and sex in the saucer chapter ;-)
Originally posted by MiahX
I kinda wish there was a separate section of the site for "fanciful" stories clearly labeled as such.
Originally posted by MiahX
I agree that a new person coming to a forum like this would run fast when they see some of the stranger stories of abductions here.
I kinda wish there was a separate section of the site for "fanciful" stories clearly labeled as such.
Originally posted by Springer
This is a forum dedicated to UFOS and ALIENS, NOT mainstream headline news.
Springer...
Originally posted by masqua
As a seeker of knowledge, and more importantly, being desirous of understanding these issues myself, I honestly agree with you in the above statement and I have no quarrel with those who would ask the hard questions, no matter which forum they are in, since that is the function of ATS as I see it... to get at the truth.
But what is to be the initial venue of the discussions? Aliens and UFO's or Paranormal? It seems to me that if someone has an experience which involves demons or angels, then it is off to the religious forum. If it is perceived by the OP that they are spirits, then Paranormal is the place for it. But, if the OP is certain that they are 'aliens', then the proper forum is this one.
In that you might help us solve this, I am hoping you might respond to this post. and give us an opinion on how to seperate these two solitudes of abduction stories.
hoax [ hōks ]
noun (plural hoax·es)
Definition:
deception: an act intended to trick people into believing something is real when it is not.
Originally posted by rdube02
However, a claim that a story contains even partial truth, and no evidence to back any "truth" - is essentially the definition of a hoax.
Originally posted by rdube02
So if you're in the business of research and truth, you go with blocking hoaxes and conducting proper analysis. If you're in the business of drawing a crowd and creating revenue and cash-flow...you go with the entertainment (aka. Pippen & co.)
Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I read sleeper's thread and sleeper's blog and then thoroughly worked through this issue for myself. I reached a two-fold conclusion:
One) I don't think we should simply believe whatever someone says. It doesn't matter if a person says they own a dog or if they say they are carrying on intimate relations with aliens. Either statement, whether mundane or extraordinary, is suspect. This is the internet and people can say / be / do whatever they want without repercussion.
Two) It is completely unfair for me to demand proof of any claim made. There is no way that suitable proof could be provided for me through the medium of a discussion board. Pictures can be altered, documents can be faked, witnesses are unreliable. I can think of nothing that could possibly be presented at ATS that would really, truly, once and for all, absolutely prove any claim made.
So, while I don't have to believe all of the claims made on the internet I also shouldn't bother to ask for proof since I couldn't possible be satisfied with anything submitted as proof. I can either read the astounding claims of others or chose not to read them. If I read them I have to just take them for what they are worth and use my own judgement concerning their possible validity. Neither agreeing nor arguing with the author will accomplish anything.
edited spelling as always
[edit on 2/7/07 by wellwhatnow]
Originally posted by Togetic
But I think there is another way around it. Perhaps, to some degree, it falls to those of us who try to be "fair skeptics" to make sure that people don't get taken in by a legitimate scam? Perhaps, by asking our questions, and being respectful, we can help someone who might otherwise be taken in by something legitimately invidious to take a step back and not proceed so haphazardly? If so, then it becomes even more imperative that we ask for proof.
Originally posted by Rdube02
And yes - the mentally ill truly believe everyone else are the ones who are mentally ill.
Originally posted by Prote
What is a legitimate scam? and what scam exactly is being discussed in this thread?
Where do all these false responsibilities come from? I'm sick and tired of not being able to enjoy whacky theories (however presented) because certain members have elevated themselves to a position of being able to judge for others and save them. Present a point or counter argument, sure...save me (or others)? Puuuulease!
For the sake of balance, I will concede that a place to explore discrepancies in a story is just as necessary as the story itself.
Originally posted by Togetic
I guess my point is, do we have an obligation to people who might be taken in by a pernicious influence if we have the power to do something about it? I sincerely don't know. I actually lean towards "no" because I think it's an impossible task and holding anyone to it is manifestly unreasonable. But I think the question is important and one that should be asked.
Originally posted by ProteHowever, also in the name of balance, I will demonstrate how easy it is to make a claim of something as fact when in reality, the poster has no way of proving their statement....
Originally posted by Rdube02
And yes - the mentally ill truly believe everyone else are the ones who are mentally ill.
The OP dodged my question of whether he stood by this but I present it here because under skeptic rules....I want evidence of this "fact" or at least have the right to ask. It is even compounded by using words like truly and everyone.
Positive Symptoms, or "psychotic" symptoms, include delusions and hallucinations because the patient has lost touch with reality in certain important ways. "Positive" as used here does not mean "good." Rather, it refers to having overt symptoms that should not be there. Delusions cause the patient to believe that people are reading their thoughts or plotting against them, that others are secretly monitoring and threatening them, or that they can control other people's minds. Hallucinations cause people to hear or see things that are not there.