A question for the religious types

Every time I see/hear a fundamentalist speak of ANY faith, I feel like banging my head against the wall and shouting "arrgh! how could you possibly get it so wrong!?". The narrow-minded, ill-informed "we're right and everybody else is wrong" mindset that breeds intolerance and rigid, dogmatic thinking for rigid, dogmatic thinking's sake simply flys in the face of what the mainstream religion's (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc.) holy books say. The mindset that thinks that if they follow their holy scripture to the T like u'd follow the instructions to ur video recorder, regardless of how compassionately kindly they live their life, they're going to (insert afterlife here).

So here's my proposition: what would ur judgments be for someone who rejects all mainstream religion (doesn't think Jesus is their savior, doesn't think Mohamed was a prophet etc.), yet lives their life as an honest, fair, loving, kind and compassionate human being, respecting all other human being's personal beliefs, regardless of who they are, where they're from, what they do. Someone who doesn't wholly reject the notion of a supreme being (after all, anything is possible), but isn't gonna spend their life contemplating such a being, knowing that if there IS such a being, they will die in the knowledge that they have lived a good, honest life in the eyes of such a being?

In ur eyes, would this person be "damned" in the eyes of ur chosen deity?

p.s. this person I describe isn't me, as much as i try to adhere to the above attributes, I am far from perfect

Organize religion is perverted. It is up to the individual to uncover the secrets of the universe from within their own being. Living an altruistic lifestyle (as you've described) is a great start. Those acts help you rise above the conformity of organize religion, to see it for what it is, which is a game amungst children. But the work is not done there, actually, it has just begun. Love, forgiveness, spiritual discernment, fortitude, and devotion to love & light will escort each individual to their own individual journey.

Tell your friend not to be discouraged by that of what he see, they are doing the best that they know how to do. Good luck and keep love in your heart towards all.

AAC

But is it enough merely to be good for goodness sake? It ignores one of the primary questions of human existence; are we required only to be good, or is there some need for self growth?

If self growth beyond altruism (While altruism being the purpose) is a purpose in a persons life, I would argue that they are existing as a human being is designed to exist. We are driven in many ways to improve, exceed, and accelerate upwards. It is a base desire.

Altruism comes from determining whether fulfilling this base desire is harmful to others and forgoing it if that is the case. What serves a man that he gain the world but lose his soul?

There is some comfort in existing without expectation, living ones life day by day as best as one can without seeking further goals. Some are not capable of such, as there is a hunger for more, a need for change and a need for that acceleration meant before.

Are these people wrong, or right? That would entirely depend on what defines the human condition. Are those who feel that altruism is the purpose wrong or right? The same question applies.

I would argue that there is some mix of both. All things must be balanced, you must improve the essential meaning of human life, but nourish the soul as well as the mind. To glut on either results in either power madness or stagnation.

That being said, I would say that the person who lives a wholly decent life without further motivation.... might live another such life and so on for eternity. Not such a bad thought, on the whole. Of course, this ascribes to reincarnation, which presupposes the previously mentioned projection of mind-kind in a forward direction for the growth of the soul.

An excellent question, thank you for asking it by the by.

Originally posted by john_bmth
In ur eyes, would this person be "damned" in the eyes of ur chosen deity?

According to my faith, everyone is worthy and I am in no place to judge others. However, for the sake of answering the question in a general philosophical way, the person you described would be in excellent spiritual shape. No damnation, no worries as far as I know.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
Organize religion is perverted.

You make a huge assumption here. My organized religion says that people should “uncover the secrets of the universe from within their own being.” Other than some general guidelines for social responsibility, we are taught to not conform to someone else’s ideas of spirituality.

In fact, when I said that "everyone is worthy and I am in no place to judge", this is something I arrived at on my own, not a commandment from my church.

Edited grammar

[edit on 1/27/07 by wellwhatnow]

Originally posted by john_bmth


The narrow-minded, ill-informed "we're right and everybody else is wrong" mindset that breeds intolerance and rigid, dogmatic thinking for rigid, dogmatic thinking's sake simply flys in the face of what the mainstream religion's (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc.) holy books say.



The mindset that thinks that if they follow their holy scripture to the T like u'd follow the instructions to ur video recorder, regardless of how compassionately kindly they live their life, they're going to....

the scriptures, of all those 3 faiths you mentioned,
tell their followers that the WAY is narrow (does that mean its rigid in its rules/laws/requirements...?)

does a believers staunch position of following the letter-&-spirit of that Faiths commandments, then define that faithful persons' worldview as being errant because it's 'intolerant', 'dogmatic', 'rigid', 'fundamentalist'
?

If one follows the guidelines of living & the instructions for social interaction that their chosen or legacy imposed religion impresses upon them,
they are not ~(imho)~ narrow-minded or intolerent, they are but true & faithful believers...regardless of Your (or any others relevativistic) viewpoints or value judgements on those peoples 'interpetation' of what their Religion instructs .

tolerance & respect, even if you don't agree...is the key

Rejection of God but living a good life doesn't get you into heaven. If you really reject God, you wouldn't want to go to heaven anyways. It's HIS home and HE is everywhere - the beatific vision and all.

Anyone who rejects God will not go to heaven. Heaven wouldn't want him/her and he/she would be happier elsewhere.

NOTE - Rejecting GOD and rejecting RELIGION are two different things.

BTW .. I'm not a fundamentalist.


[edit on 1/27/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by john_bmth
So here's my proposition: what would ur judgments be for someone who rejects all mainstream religion (doesn't think Jesus is their savior, doesn't think Mohamed was a prophet etc.), yet lives their life as an honest, fair, loving, kind and compassionate human being,

My judgement would be irrelevent in the matter. Their spirituality is between them and their creator.

I am a Spiritual Anarchist. I believe the only true relationship one can have with the creator of all things is by throwing off the shackles of man made religion and accepting a one on one relationship with God. (whatever you consider God to be.)

God does not need a middle man, Though every religion will teach you differant..

That does not mean I condemn religion though. Respecting the path of another is just as much a part of spirituality as walking your own. The path one walks will not make them holy. They must make the path holy, regardless of the path they have chosen.

It is not wrong to follow a designated path. Only the one walking that path can make it a truly spiritual one.

what path someone is walking is far less important than how they are walking it. A true follower of the higher aspirations of our souls will find a way regardless of the dogma they must endure.

Just my thoughts on it,

Are religious people good because they fear the wrath of their "God" or are they good because of what they may get out of it i.e. entry into heaven ?

I would think that someone who lives a good life just because they want to , without these incentives is a better person than most religious types could aspire to be .

Originally posted by john_bmth
The narrow-minded, ill-informed "we're right and everybody else is wrong" mindset that breeds intolerance and rigid, dogmatic thinking for rigid, dogmatic thinking's sake

First I have no use for religion..........only the truth. The truth is that the way is narrow..........like it or not that's the truth.

Why is it that I know what you know because I have been there but you know nothing of what I know because it is you who are ill informed? Take the time to seek the truth and get informed.

Have you ever read the Bible? Have you studied the origin of Islam? Have you researched the history of the Catholic church? What do you know about different religions? Have you attempted to study archaeology as it relates to human history? Have you checked the accuracy of Biblical prophecy?. Have you examined the Bible codes and their probability? Have you studied ancient history?

I repeat...............YOU are ill informed. When you get informed you will realize that the way is narrow and the time is short. Take the time to get informed. It's too important to not to.

[edit on 28-1-2007 by Sun Matrix]

I don't think that you would be damned forever if you are a good person but don't believe. It seems very wrong to me for that to be the case.

In my mind "the path being narrow" is either true, and that is the case, or it was planted there in order to make the masses easier to control. After all, the threat of hell-fire was used a lot, particularly by Christians to convert people. So if that is considered, then the path being narrow is a very useful piece of thought control, allowing any deviancy to be crushed as "heresy".

Just my opinion of course, and anyway, if the path is so narrow, have all the people who believe they are on it really got a chance?

Religion is there to control the masses. Religion is there to keep you from seeing the truth.

When the Romans couldn't kill the truth by killing the Christians they meerly formed the Catholic Church and brought the so called Mysteries from the religion of Babylon into Christianity.
The Roman Church is Mystery Babylon of the book of Revelation. They bring you a religion of works instead of the truth.

Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism etc all come from Babylon.

Religion is out to control the masses. It seeks to hide the true narrow path.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism etc all come from Babylon.

sun, again i must point out that this is a claim that you cannot prove
we on this board have debunked it repeatedly
stop posting it

ooo
next time i make a similar post in response to that claim i get a free smoothie

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism etc all come from Babylon.

sun, again i must point out that this is a claim that you cannot prove
we on this board have debunked it repeatedly
stop posting it

ooo
next time i make a similar post in response to that claim i get a free smoothie

Please feel free to show me where it is debunked.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Please feel free to show me where it is debunked.

in THIS thread you failed to prove your point with any supporting evidence
and then you compared everyone who disagreed with you to holocaust deniers

Hinduism and Zoroastrianism are the two of the oldest surviving religions and derive from a common origin.

Common origin
Main article: Proto-Indo-Iranian religion
Both Zoroastrianism and Vedic religion are of Indo-Iranian origin, that is, are developments of cultures that have common roots. The oldest sacred texts of both religions have a similar grammar, structure and style, and indeed share words and phrases. The language of the Gathas (the oldest hymns of the Zoroastrian collection of texts known as the Avesta) and the language of the RigVeda are similar to the point that many translations of Gathic Avestan were made by scholars of Vedic Sanskrit.

I believe just providing the single piece of evidence which I did proves that what I said is certainly plausable. I said Hinduism comes from Zoroastrianism. This one tidbit I provided says they have common roots, similar grammar, structure and style.

Like I said, this is like me providing the calculations that man was able to land on the moon. I don't have time to start with 2 plus 2 and teach you things that have been intentionally confused to keep you in blindness.

These religions all tie together and are from Babylon. The fact that you don't understand this is not unusual as you are not supposed to understand it. I could provide tons of examples if I had the time but what good would it do to if you are not interested in seeking the truth.

Oh, what the heck...........here's a tidbit. Why do those following Hinduism have such reverence for the cow and reincarnation? Where does this belief come from. Marduk who is Nimrod is worshipped as a bull in Babylon. Baal also Nimrod is worshipped as a golden calf. In Egypt Osiris who is Nimrod is said to be reincarnated as the Apis Bull.

These beliefs of reincarnation and religions of works have a common origin which is Babylon. This common origin is not meant for you to understand. It comes from the deceiver seeking to keep you from the truth.............and yes he has.

[edit on 28-1-2007 by Sun Matrix]

Originally posted by john_bmth
what would ur judgments be for someone who rejects all mainstream religion (doesn't think Jesus is their savior, doesn't think Mohamed was a prophet etc.), yet lives their life as an honest, fair, loving, kind and compassionate human being, respecting all other human being's personal beliefs, regardless of who they are, where they're from, what they do......

In ur eyes, would this person be "damned" in the eyes of ur chosen deity?

Well, coming from a Roman Catholic.....
...I wish I could find the exact place, but somewhere in the New Testament it talks about death and being judged, AND what I remember reading was that God knows that there are truly good folk out there that are clueless to Him. What I remember reading is that the Christian who knows and understands God will be judged the harshest, but those who never knew Him (note I didn't say "reject") will be judged also but not as harshly as the believing Christian. It also talked about how the Jews would be judged (less harshly than Christians if I remember correctly??????). I wish I could find the verse.....but this is mentioned in the NT somewhere.

I don't subscribe to the "you must be saved" or "born-again" belief.
That is more of a fundamentalist Protestant belief, not a Catholic one.
He knows there are good people who never came to know Him.
What about islanders long ago who were never introduced to Christianity? Is it fair for them to all be condemned to Hell? No, I don't think so.
People like this will be judged, but I highly doubt they all go to Hell.
But, personally Jesus is my savior. He's the God I pray to. I believe He is the only way to eternal life.

I think the problem with your friend is he outright rejects Jesus (God).
So, I think no matter how nice he is, because he blatantly rejects Jesus there's a pretty good chance when he tries knocking on the gates of heaven, they're gonna turn him away and tell him to head south. All the "niceness" he causes down here on earth isn't gonna win him brownie points above. He's been exposed to God, so he was given the chance to know Him.....but rejected Him. That's his downfall right there.

[edit on 28-1-2007 by rocknroll]

Originally posted by rocknroll
I think the problem with your friend is he outright rejects Jesus (God).
So, I think no matter how nice he is, because he blatantly rejects Jesus there's a pretty good chance when he tries knocking on the gates of heaven, they're gonna turn him away and tell him to head south. All the "niceness" he causes down here on earth isn't gonna win him brownie points above. He's been exposed to God, so he was given the chance to know Him.....but rejected Him. That's his downfall right there.

well, if you're such a good catholic
you'd realize that what you just said directly contradicts your own doctrine
people that are virtuous yet don't believe can get into heaven in catholicism
whether or not they believe in "jesus" or have actively rejected religion

i think that particular doctrine came about in vatican 2
not sure
point is
roman catholicism says all good people go to heaven regardless of religion

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
your own doctrine ... people that are virtuous yet don't believe can get into heaven in catholicism whether or not they believe in "jesus" or have actively rejected religion

Sort of but not exactly.

The Catholic teaching is that people who do not believe in Christ, through no fault of their own, may still get into Heaven. If they have never heard of Him or they don't understand Him, then they can't really reject Him.

Anyone who rejects God doesn't go to heaven. Period. WHY would anyone who rejects God even want to go there anyways? It is God's home and He is there in all His Majesty. That would drive someone who rejects him bonkers ....

Originally posted by mrwupy
I believe the only true relationship one can have with the creator of all things is by throwing off the shackles of man made religion and accepting a one on one relationship with God. (whatever you consider God to be.)

God does not need a middle man, Though every religion will teach you differant..

That does not mean I condemn religion though. Respecting the path of another is just as much a part of spirituality as walking your own.

You and I have almost the exact same take on this. I eliminated the middle man several years ago, it's amazing how different I feel, how much more I've learned on my own, how much less judgmenatl it's made me. We are "ALL" imperfect, not matter what your beliefs are.

To the OP, I'm just curious though, why are in in the faith/spirituality thread if it's the very thing that makes you feel like banging your head? :bnghd: That's not a personal attack, please don't take it that way, it just seems a bit ironic to me.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The Catholic teaching is that people who do not believe in Christ, through no fault of their own, may still get into Heaven. If they have never heard of Him or they don't understand Him, then they can't really reject Him.

ah, well
that makes it much more skewed
you could say any atheist doesn't understand god
and therefore gets to heaven through virtue

Anyone who rejects God doesn't go to heaven. Period. WHY would anyone who rejects God even want to go there anyways? It is God's home and He is there in all His Majesty. That would drive someone who rejects him bonkers ....

you're right
i've actually pondered the question and i adhere to this sentiment:
"If there is a God, he is a malign thug."
-Sam Clemens AKA Mark Twain
so, yeah
hell seems pretty chill i guess, especially with people like him hanging out there