12,000,000 years old fossilized human remains found in Chalkidiki (2003)

In December of 2003, Dr. Poulianos unearthed the petrified remains of seven erectus humans who lived in Halkidiki approximately 12,000,000 years ago.

An exclusive interview given by Dr. Aris Poulianos to the journal

The first toolmaker



Q. Let us return to our 12,000,000 year-old man. Based on what's known so far, is it possible to come to some sort of conclusions as to his nature?



A. The most important is that, by necessity, he stood and walked in an upright position. Further, that it was he who grasped and developed the technology required to make the first tools. This man was a rational and inventive being, in whom we see the development of not only an upright stance, but cognition and speech as well.



Q. Was he capable of articulated speech?



A. I suspect that he was. This is because he lived by hunting in a group; an activity that presupposes elementary communicative skills.



Q. With what other kinds of animals did Homo erectus trigliensis share his environment?



A. He lived with rhinoceroses, deer, a variety of grazing animals, horses, and even the early giraffe. Recently, among other things, we found a bone from the leg of a giraffe that was dated to the same period as Homo erectus trigliensis, and is on display here at the museum.



Q. I can't help wondering what Mr. Leakey (the originator of the Afro-centrist theory) would say were he to see it.



A. He would most likely ask: "How is it possible that the giraffes of Greece are older than those of Africa?" But ... this is not my fault!



Q. If we were to try to mentally recreate the environment of Hellas 12,000,000 years ago, would we most likely imagine it to be like a jungle?



A. Exactly. It was a jungle in a naturally temperate climate that bordered on the tropical, and it included all of the fauna I mentioned.



Q. Aside from the stratigraphy, have you utilized any other dating method to determine the ages of your new discoveries?



A. Yes. In cooperation with the University of South Carolina in the U.S.A., and with Professor Alan Nairn of that institution, they've all been dated using the method of paleomagnetism. This is how it was determined that the Homo erectus trigliensis remains were 12,000,000 +- years-old, and that the fossilized flora we unearthed are 17,000,000 +- years-old

and where is Halkidiki or Chalkidiki?
here is the map: Chalkidiki


And i used to believe that humans were derived from Africa
Now that's wierd!

Tell me your opinions

Dragon

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Fixed title


[edit on 25/1/07 by masqua]

I'm going to do more research, but it's suspicious. My first thought was that they mistranslated "mille" as "million" instead of "thousand." 12,000 would be far more plausible.

One source I just saw (I'm headed off, so I can't do much research) said it was a hoax, which seems right.
unauthorised.org...

Another clue that it's a hoax was a web citation saying that NASA had confirmed the date. NASA, as we all know, doesn't do radiometric dating.

Your subject header is somewhat misleading. I was expecting to find 12,000,000 human remains not 12,000,000 million year old remains. Interesting anyway.

Originally posted by arius
Your subject header is somewhat misleading. I was expecting to find 12,000,000 human remains not 12,000,000 million year old remains. Interesting anyway.

i thought the same thing.

Halkidiki is a small greek island i think, my parents went there on holiday a few years ago

Aris Poulianos is a man according from what i have heard that he has sustained very much critique.

Halkidiki is a small greek island i think, my parents went there on holiday a few years ago

No chalkidiki is not an island, see the map i gave above, you must refering to the island ''Αμουλιανή''.

I made a little research and i found that he is working on excavations in ''
Petralona cave''

and in 1997 he has unearthed other things as well like this one:

skull

Of course he's going to be critiqued. They (the religeous fundies that control our country and other countries cough* Vatican cough*) won't let anything that goes against their view of the world and history get positive attention.

Could really be a hoax though. I hope it's not.

In 1969, Aris Poulianos was elected Vice-President of the 8th International Congress of Anthropological and Ethnological Sciences in Tokyo. In 1971, Poulianos founded the Anthropological Association of Greece, which is now run by his son. This organization, specifically, has had a long-standing dispute with the Greek Ministry of Culture, after the latter's attempts to evict the Anthropological Association of Greece from the excavation site in the Petralona Cave, which was conceded to them after a 1981 contract. In 1976, Poulianos founded the Department of Paleoanthropology-Spelaeology, which functions within the Greek Ministry of Culture. He is a permanent member of the International Council of Anthropological and Ethnological Sciences of UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization). In 1979, he was appointed President of the 3rd European Congress of Anthropology at Prague, which held its works in 1982 at Petralona.

I don't believe that a man with such a track record would create a hoax like this

Added Link

[edit on 25/1/07 by masqua]

This is a YouTube video of Aris Poulianos

www.youtube.com...

about the excavetion site

The age is based on paleomagnetic studies done by this guy:
www.esri.sc.edu...

Seems like he knows what he is doing.


12 million years old would mean more than that man originated in europe, it'd have to mean that erectus didn't evolve from australpithecus and the like.

I get the impression that the only matierial here though is a 8 single bones, all partial tibia? Or was my reading too quick?

www.grecoreport.com...
the torzine angle of their tibiae, which is 23 degrees; in other words, the same as that of contemporary man.

But based on a few partial remains, the most likely explanation is that all that evidence for an african origin is wrong and this si the correct origin, rather, than, say, any other explanation for a tibia with such an angle?

byrd
12,000 would be far more plausible.

A 12k year old erectus? That'd be amazingly recent no?

well
i'm going to agree with the hoax point
just because of the NASA point
they don't do radiometric dating
the article is falsified by that claim, unless said claim was just a mistake of some sort

interesting, givin the movements of the tectonic plates and the relitive volcanic and other phenominon that hapen around the med it could be possible that a proto human could have evolved around grece that long ago.

Everything is possible. Humans I believe are a lot older than science has dictated. The level of intelegence that we have suggests that we are an old species that has taken millions of years of evolution to get to this point.

can't be true our science books say it is not and scientist's are not capable of corruption


seriously though who knows and if it were true it would never be allowed to gain much momentum

Seems a pretty strange case, the good Doctor seems to have an agenda.

Check this site: www.grecoreport.com...

It seems he came to these conclusions from a fragment of tibia (shin bone).

I can't really find anything else to back up his claims.

In the journal, Anthropos, put out by the Anthropological Association of Greece, he relates the following:



"After decades in Macedonia, and more specifically in the Cave of the 'Archanthropus of Petralona,' in Halkidiki, I brought to light ground-breaking proofs of the existence of the oldest erect and intelligent European man ever discovered. Archanthropus lived more than 700,000 years ago; he originated here, in Northern Greece and the Northern Aegean, and he represents the very beginning of the family of man. Besides Archanthropus, I discovered the oldest traces of fire, over 1 million years old, and, most recently, the tibia [shin bone] of a standing man who lived approximately 11 million years ago [Homo erectus trigliensis]. My finds have been verified by eleven of the most prestigious universities in the world, and have been certified and endorsed at ... two international anthropological conventions ... where Archanthropus was declared to be the oldest intelligent inhabitant of our continent. ...

And the conspirancy:

A few days later, "Ambassador Talbott summoned Plutarchos Papaïouannou -- a representative in Greece for the American company Dupont, and a fellow member of the governing board of Patras University -- to his office at the U.S. Embassy. 'Dr. Poulianos isn't needed as a member of the governing board of your university,' said Talbott. 'His theories about the "Origin of the Hellenes" smacks of racism, nazism, and Hitlerism. Besides, the Russians encouraged his work in order to enflame a sense of nationalistic patriotism within the Greek people!' "



And so it happened that "... on 4 April 1967, the subsequent prime minister of Greece, Professor Panagiotis Kanellopoulos, without giving any explanation whatsoever, summarily removed me from the governing board of the University of Patras."

How an Ambassador can expell a scollar from his duties!!!
Where are the human rights?








[edit on 25-1-2007 by Dragonlike]

Okay, after more research...

Doctor Poulianos is, indeed, a real anthropologist and a for-real PhD. He did, indeed, make those claims (we'll get to them in a minute) and 12 million years is not a mistranslation. Nor is the name of the species of hominid a mistranslation. He also claims to have discovered a Archanthropus europaeus petraloniensis that's 700,000 years old.

And yes, his findings have been rejected everywhere.

There's a pretty unbiased (and somewhat favorable) report here:
www.aee.gr...

So... let's look at his claims (which, by the way, are not helped by this web page which shows the skull of Homo Heidelbergensis (if I've got my material right) www.ancientgr.com... )

Evidence:
There was a 1964 find of a cranium in the cave, along with tortoise and other parts. The fauna was dated (believably) to 700,000 years. The skull cranium (that's the "vault" of the skull, but not the facial bones) was supposedly dated to that time as well.

It has not been reexamined (apparently the Mysterious Evil Government of Greece swooped in during the time he wasn't in control of the museum and made the evidence disappear.) Are there photos of the evidence? No, but there's an (apparently) "faithful recreation of the scene" in the museum in question:
www.aee.gr...

If that's how it was found, the cranium (area that holds the brain) could NOT have been extracted. If it was "melded" into the rock, then you couldn't have easily chiseled it out. If it was "attached" to the rock, then the cranial vault was destroyed.

But all we have is a model that SAYS it's accurate. We don't have the original material. Also claimed were another "complete skeleton" (also vanished) plus pieces of other skeletons. No photographs.

The dating on the skeleton was done by " electron spin echoing, thermic lighting, uranium / thorium, paleomagnetism and aminoacids"

Never heard of them. References for "electron spin echoing" turns up zip.. Nil. Nada. How do we know if this is a valid method of dating material? We don't. No references for "thermic lighting", either . Paleomagnetism dating is used for rock only. Amino Acid dating IS done and can be done on Myocene material.

There's a luminescence method of dating ("thermic lighting" may have been a problem in translation) but it's good up to only 1 million years:
www.aber.ac.uk...

So... claimed dating methods are questionable. Many of them were not available until recently and couldn't have been used to date the material.

So... we have various claims of what was found (by the good doctor himself), questionable dating methods, vanished evidence, and a Greek nationalist agenda.

Here's what scientists agree is the "hominid timeline." There's multiple sites and multiple bits of evidence for these, and all of them are in known collections and museums.
www.wsu.edu...

Primate timeline:
www.wilton.k12.ct.us...

So he's saying that his humans somehow appeared 2 million years before the modern primates began evolving.
www.philosophyforum.net...

We dol have fossils from primates that lived 12 million years ago and earlier, but as you can see from the timeline just cited, none of them were humanoid. To accept his version, you would have to believe in Instant Evolution.

So, he's rejected because his fossils "mysteriously vanished" (all of them) and because there's no supporting evidence (just his word.)

I don't find it convincing, and if the skull shown above is supposed to be one of the ones he found, than I'm even MORE skeptical.

Originally posted by Byrd


So... we have various claims of what was found (by the good doctor himself), questionable dating methods, vanished evidence, and a Greek nationalist agenda.

I must strongly agree with that. Greeks are known to manipulate archeological datas in order to adapt those with their ridiculous megaloidea (big idea). To me is even more ridiculous when they call themself as hellenes. 2500 years old greeks don't have nothing in common with the hellens. Gee I hate when science is used for politics and nationalist agenda.

Originally posted by Dragonlike

How an Ambassador can expell a scollar from his duties!!!
Where are the human rights?

Sorry for being out of topic but I couldn't take this bs.

Greece is the most criticized country in the whole Europian Union for not respecting human rights and actually violating those heavily. Isn't that hypocrisy pretending human rights? And yet again it screems so much your antipathy toward americans.


p.s. Wait, I must add this, you really deserve it !!!






[edit on 25-1-2007 by Telos]

Telos, this offence was irrelevant.

You really enjoy this don't you? But if that is your opinion i can do nothing for you...
You are off...
...topic...

I never said Greece has a clean past, but this mean that you don't have either.

Every civilization has to boast about something and be ashamed of something else.

I just don't understand what role i will play for you to enjoy your ''stupid'' comments... after all i am here to deny my ignorance not to listen to you...


be...
on..
topic

As far as it being a hoax, Poulianos could simply be wrong, and not be a hoaxer. Its okay to be wrong.

Originally posted by Byrd
was a web citation saying that NASA had confirmed the date

But was that Poulianos saying NASA confirmed it, or some one else? Poulianos says, in the interview in the opening post, that they had paleomagnetic age control.

Paleomagnetism dating is used for rock only.

?
They can use paleomagnetics to get age control on a site. Not the fossil material but for the site and layers it should work.

So, he's rejected because his fossils "mysteriously vanished" (all of them) and because there's no supporting evidence (just his word.)

The tibias too?

It seems like, outside of the skull, he is saying that the partial tibias look very human like in the first place, AND that they have a characteristic angle to them, or a portion with such an angle, that is indicative, in humans at least, of upright walking.

None of which means it was definitely human and definitly walked upright.

Interestingly, he hypothesises that the need to walk upright came about from having to look about for lava flows, common in the region,which isn't all to different from the idea that humans had to leave the trees and look over tall grasses in africa. Except that it'd have to be less frequent. But if he's saying that they had to leave the trees because of lava flows, its at least plausible.

I think what has happened is that he did have these finds, he got proper age control on them and the site, but he's misidentified them as human based on too few features.

and a Greek nationalist agenda.

Indeed, there was a weird section of the interview where the interviewer, out of nowhere, was like 'whoa, that sounds like you support the darwinin evolution' and he responds 'no, the darwinin copied evolution which was exactly stated by aristotle centuries before, and the darwin never gave any credit".



I know that Aristotle had an evolution like idea, but it was nothing like the formulation that darwin came up with.

"Kimono is from the greek word chimon, which is for cold, because you put on a kimono when you are cold. See, it is all from greek!"

whatukno
interesting, givin the movements of the tectonic plates and the relitive volcanic and other phenominon that hapen around the med it could be possible that a proto human could have evolved around grece that long ago.

?
What does tectonics have to do with it in this instance?

Humans I believe are a lot older than science has dictated. The level of intelegence that we have suggests that we are an old species that has taken millions of years of evolution to get to this point.

Humans did take millions of years to evolve.

cdpaman
seriously though who knows and if it were true it would never be allowed to gain much momentum

Why would anyone care much about the out-of-africa hypothesis? Why would the supposed 'powers that be' be working to shield it from criticism, and suppress that man might've evolved in europe and earlier than thought???

dragonlike
How an Ambassador can expell a scollar from his duties!!!

He didn't. He suggested that he be gotten rid of.

Where are the human rights?

How is it a violation of human rights? No one has a right to any particular job, whether its at a university or not.