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12,000,000 years old fossilized human remains found in Chalkidiki (2003)

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posted on Jan, 25 2007 @ 08:30 PM
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Genetic evidence suggests that the evolutionary lines of gorillas diverged about 8 million years ago and that chimpanzees and early hominids diverged about 5 million years ago. Most evolutionary biologists propose that modern humans evolved in Africa between 100 - 200 thousand years ago. With the advances in modern genetic research capabilities we have been able to look deeper into our distant past.

DNA is present inside the nucleus of every cell of our body, but it is the DNA of the cell's mitochondria that has been most commonly used to construct evolutionary trees. The robust "phylogenetic" tree reconstructed with the data of complete mitochondrial genomes gives strong support to the 'recent African origin' theory. By determining the substitution rate of the genomic sequences, it is possible to derive dates for points on the tree and build a chronology of events in the evolution and migration of our species. From this study, a date of 170,000 years ago was obtained which fits remarkably well with that proposed in the recent African origin hypothesis.
Mitochondrial DNA and Human Evolution (this link is a bit technical)

Along with this genetic data there is also a significant fossil record stretching all the way back from Ardipithecus ramidus some four and a half million years ago, on up to the emergence of modern man about one hundred and twenty-thousand years ago. The fossil record is well established and several finds have been dated by numerous methods.

The claims of Dr. Poulianos, that Homo Erectus was around twelve million years ago is completely contradictory to all other data which puts Homo Erectus showing up about two million years ago. This is a difference of ten million years. He claims that upright walking, tool using, fire using proto humans were around in the Mesozoic era when Dinosaurs roamed the Earth. OK Sure. I'll buy that, and while you're at it perhaps I can buy the Brooklyn Bridge as well.




posted on Jan, 25 2007 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by Dragonlike

In 1969, Aris Poulianos was elected Vice-President of the 8th International Congress of Anthropological and Ethnological Sciences in Tokyo. In 1971, Poulianos founded the Anthropological Association of Greece, which is now run by his son. This organization, specifically, has had a long-standing dispute with the Greek Ministry of Culture, after the latter's attempts to evict the Anthropological Association of Greece from the excavation site in the Petralona Cave, which was conceded to them after a 1981 contract. In 1976, Poulianos founded the Department of Paleoanthropology-Spelaeology, which functions within the Greek Ministry of Culture. He is a permanent member of the International Council of Anthropological and Ethnological Sciences of UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization). In 1979, he was appointed President of the 3rd European Congress of Anthropology at Prague, which held its works in 1982 at Petralona.


I don't believe that a man with such a track record would create a hoax like this

Added Link

[edit on 25/1/07 by masqua]


Mille in French at least means 1,000?

12,000 years old.

That is not very hard to believe and is much more respectable.

12,000,000 however is rediculous and absurbed. Who ever wrote the article was beyond ignorant in their understanding of what words mean in another language.. IMO

Aside from that, Carbon dating is the only way to age human DNA or bones, by our carbon content.. the Carbon 12 that is used in Carbon dating only last so long.. after a while it is gone and it is almost impossible to date. The only way then would be to date the rocks, which humans typically die in sedimantary deposits, so that could give a rough estimate of age through fossiles, but still impresise. But, however, while bones leave an imprint, cultural buildings and such do not. After 12,000,000 years not a thing could exist to show this 12 million year old mans life, yet this guy in the article says he was inteligent. I therefore say it is estimated at 12,000 years old and someone somewhere mis traslated or mis understood or a typo.

[edit on 1/25/2007 by Rockpuck]



posted on Jan, 25 2007 @ 09:01 PM
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Carbon dating is not the only way to date bones and DNA. As I indicated in my previous post, now that the human genome has been sequenced, we can use Mitochondrial DNA to get a fairly accurate date on genetic material. In fact there are a number of ways to determine date however Carbon dating can only be used on organic material.

While some have proposed a translation error, and this is a possibility, DR Poulianos speaks English quite well. He did indeed make stupendous claims about his findings.



posted on Jan, 25 2007 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd
If that's how it was found, the cranium (area that holds the brain) could NOT have been extracted. If it was "melded" into the rock, then you couldn't have easily chiseled it out. If it was "attached" to the rock, then the cranial vault was destroyed.


Paeliontologists (SP) chisel bones out of rock quite often. They are quite careful in doing so. Your right you cannot easily chisel it out of the rock without damaging it but I would hope that these scientists would be careful in the procedure.


But all we have is a model that SAYS it's accurate. We don't have the original material. Also claimed were another "complete skeleton" (also vanished) plus pieces of other skeletons. No photographs.


too bad there isnt any photographic evidence for this board to scream photoshop fake at. As far as I can see on these threads photographic evidence proves nothing. So we have to assume that the missing evidence is false as well. No evidence no conclusive proof there was any to begin with.


The dating on the skeleton was done by " electron spin echoing, thermic lighting, uranium / thorium, paleomagnetism and aminoacids"


Electron Spin Echoing

Bio inorganic Chemistry

I couldent come up with thermic lighting as a test myself I have no idea what that would be.


Never heard of them. References for "electron spin echoing" turns up zip.. Nil. Nada. How do we know if this is a valid method of dating material? We don't. No references for "thermic lighting", either . Paleomagnetism dating is used for rock only. Amino Acid dating IS done and can be done on Myocene material.


once something is fossilized doesnt it become in sense a rock? bone material is porous and would absorb minerals around it especialy if it was at one time incased in mud that over time solidified and turned into stone. These fossils themselves are just as much stone as the stone around it the only way we realize that they were at one time bone is by looking at them.


There's a luminescence method of dating ("thermic lighting" may have been a problem in translation) but it's good up to only 1 million years:
www.aber.ac.uk...


if so wouldent it be probable then to think maybe these remeins were over that threshold of time where this testing would stop being reliable? perhaps the remeins were there that long ago and so would be beyond the methods of testing done at this time.


So... claimed dating methods are questionable. Many of them were not available until recently and couldn't have been used to date the material.


True but as for most everything in paelioanthropology it is subject to conjecture and debate.

Perhaps the doc is wrong (probably) and these bones arn't that old. but perhaps he is also not as wrong as one would think and the remeins are older thain conventional science would have us believe mankind has existed in the world.

I seriously have my doubts myself that a protohuman species was around that long ago. I couldent imagine what the earth itself would have looked like at that time. The dinos would have been gone a scant 53 million years prior.

Continental drift would have put Greece a little closer to Africa at that point and who knows what that paticular land mass would have looked like at the time not to mention climate in the region.

It is possible. (not likely) but possible that this doc has stumbled onto something with finding these remeins but has had problems with the government of Greece. (don't we all have that same problem?)

all I am saying is that 12,000,000 years is not realy that long in terms of evolutionary scale. I believe that it is possible for a proto human to have been wandering about at that time. We have a big space of time between the extinction of the dinosaurs and the onset of mankind where there wasnt much happining in the neighborhood of earth. So one would have to assume that there must have been something that filled the gap.



posted on Jan, 25 2007 @ 09:49 PM
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Originally posted by Dragonlike
Telos, this offence was irrelevant.

You really enjoy this don't you? But if that is your opinion i can do nothing for you...


This board is about opinions, isn't it?

Anyway I apologise if it sound it to harsh but nothing personal. First time I see your name... As for me enjoying this, trust me there is nothing that can make me happier then a news like that, a prove that human race is much older then is thought. In this instance I don't blame the message but the messenger. Read my previous posts in this forum and you'll see how hard I "fight" to protect the idea of a very old human race and civilisation aswell.
Using datas to protect a scientific point of view (some time makeing a wrong interpretation) is something that IMO can be tolerated but falsifing those for a pathetic nationalist agenda, that I consider a shame.



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 07:33 AM
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In the
Petralona museum there is this exhibit:


which is dated back 1,000,000 (about) years before.
These are the most ancient traces of fire ever found.
----------------
edit


We dol have fossils from primates that lived 12 million years ago and earlier, but as you can see from the timeline just cited, none of them were humanoid. To accept his version, you would have to believe in Instant Evolution.

Does this embrace the theory that humans created genetically from extraterrestial forms of life istead of the normal evolution from the apes?

[edit on 26-1-2007 by Dragonlike]



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by Dragonlike

Does this embrace the theory that humans created genetically from extraterrestial forms of life istead of the normal evolution from the apes?


Remember that his dates are off by Ten million years. If what he claimed was true, or if ET was involved way back then, there would have to be significant fossil records for the past ten million years indicating proto-human presence. There simply isn't any. Ten Million years is an awfully long time and that there is no other supporting fossil data it demonstrates false thinking in his claim. We have lots of fossils that are Ten million years old and even older yet none show anything like the life forms one would associate with early human ancestors. If his claims are true, then where are all the other fossilized proto-humans? Where are the ancestors to said proto-humans?

All of the Fossil data and DNA data show very clearly a date ten million years later than his claim.



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 11:49 PM
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Originally posted by Griff
Of course he's going to be critiqued. They (the religeous fundies that control our country and other countries cough* Vatican cough*) won't let anything that goes against their view of the world and history get positive attention.

Could really be a hoax though. I hope it's not.


cough* THE VATICAN cough* Several Popes have boarded the evolution train. Cough* I wonder why cough*

Much to learn you have cough* GRASSHOPPER cough*



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 06:44 AM
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I don't think this is a hoax as such. I think he honestly believes that unlike the rest of us, the Greeks are directly descended from a line of homonids that evolved exclusively in what is now Greece.


"After decades in Macedonia, and more specifically in the Cave of the 'Archanthropus of Petralona,' in Halkidiki, I brought to light ground-breaking proofs of the existence of the oldest erect and intelligent European man ever discovered. Archanthropus lived more than 700,000 years ago; he originated here, in Northern Greece and the Northern Aegean, and he represents the very beginning of the family of man. Besides Archanthropus, I discovered the oldest traces of fire, over 1 million years old, and, most recently, the tibia [shin bone] of a standing man who lived approximately 11 million years ago [Homo erectus trigliensis]. My finds have been verified by eleven of the most prestigious universities in the world, and have been certified and endorsed at ... two international anthropological conventions ... where Archanthropus was declared to be the oldest intelligent inhabitant of our continent. ...

"[Since then] the validity of my work has become the target of a villainous conspiracy of calumny and vilification by those who wish to do all in their power to diminish and discredit Hellas. ... I became the target of the haters of Hellenism and Hellas because my theories contradict their venomous schemes designed to beguile the masses into believing that there is no biological continuance between our people and their ancient ancestors: that the Greeks and the Cretans are not autochthonous (4). Meanwhile, as they disseminate this lie, they are promoting the self-serving and deceptive theory that the cradle of mankind is to be found in Africa" (9f).


www.grecoreport.com...

He's certainly not the first intelligent man to suffer from such extreme nationalistic obsessions, sensibilities and paranoia ...

(the website itself is very anti-Semitic as well
)



posted on Jan, 28 2007 @ 04:51 AM
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I think he honestly believes that unlike the rest of us, the Greeks are directly descended from a line of homonids that evolved exclusively in what is now Greece.

pity he hasn't heard of genetics eh



posted on Jan, 28 2007 @ 10:17 AM
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Greek is not actually someone who lives at the geographical boundaries of Greece. ''Greeks are not all Greeks''. I cannot recall who (ancient philosopher) said that. Greek is someone who thinks as a Greek. Thinking of truth, democracy, etc.

Greek=Hellenes
hellenes= Έλληνες/Έλλην
Hellas= Έλλας/ Ήλιος(Helios=sun)

so Hellenes/Greeks are not just Greeks but all the world who is under the sun



posted on Jan, 28 2007 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by Terapin

Originally posted by Dragonlike

Does this embrace the theory that humans created genetically from extraterrestial forms of life istead of the normal evolution from the apes?


Remember that his dates are off by Ten million years.

There is nothing that suggests that. Heck, he didn't even do the paleomagnetism study that gave them an age model, another researcher did.

We have seen nothing that suggests that the age dating is incorrect, but we do have reason to beleive that his identification of the fossil material is inaccurate.


All of the Fossil data and DNA data show very clearly a date ten million years later than his claim.

Thats not a good enough reason to reject his claim though. We can provsionally reject his claim because the evidence he presents is so weak, his identification of the tibia as humanoid is weak.

(via essan)
www.grecoreport.com...

and have been certified and endorsed at ... two international anthropological conventions


Scientific conventions do not certify and endore findings. The fact that he said this makes me think that he is less of a mistaken researcher and more of a deliberate fraud.



posted on Jan, 28 2007 @ 06:25 PM
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There is nothing that suggests that. Heck, he didn't even do the paleomagnetism study that gave them an age model, another researcher did.

He didn't suggested that, i did. Well, the reason he didn't do the paleomagnetism by himself is that he didn't knew how to do it. Sounds strange?
No, to me. Many archeologists of his time used to ask the help of the american universities and researchers along with their apparatus because Greece that time didn't provide them. Of course now, the Greek archeological universities provide and the tech and the knowhow to future archeologists. What more even today they ask the foreign researchers to testify their new findings such as sculptures, pillars etc.



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 01:28 AM
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I think you've nailed it, Essan. That was my conclusion after looking at the data.


Originally posted by Essan
I don't think this is a hoax as such. I think he honestly believes that unlike the rest of us, the Greeks are directly descended from a line of homonids that evolved exclusively in what is now Greece.

He's certainly not the first intelligent man to suffer from such extreme nationalistic obsessions, sensibilities and paranoia ...


I heartily agree. His data would be a lot more believable if he'd said 80,000 years or even 60,000 years (when homo erectus was around.) Cultureal findings from h.erectus in that area WOULD be significant, even if it was only a mere 60,000 years old. That would form a basis to see how a culture spread in h.erectus and was transferred over to h.sapiens.



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by Dragonlike
the reason he didn't do the paleomagnetism by himself is that he didn't knew how to do it. Sounds strange?

No. He'd clearly want to go to a person who's made that their field.


Many archeologists of his time used to ask the help of the american universities and researchers along with their apparatus because Greece that time didn't provide them.

People who are well funded in the US do it too.



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by Dragonlike
the reason he didn't do the paleomagnetism by himself is that he didn't knew how to do it. Sounds strange?

No. He'd clearly want to go to a person who's made that their field.


Many archeologists of his time used to ask the help of the american universities and researchers along with their apparatus because Greece that time didn't provide them.

People who are well funded in the US do it too.


I totally agree with you Nygdan

PS: Sorry for the violation of terms about the quote



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