Pyramids......sound and water???

Byrd,

Marduk and you are missing to acknowledge that ALL GROUPS OF MAN TOGETHER is placing that average 1 block per 2 minute.

How many groups were able to work together on building?

Another question is ramp. How many groups of people were able to lift blocks at the same time?

[edit on 1/17/07 by vietifulJoe]

Originally posted by cpdaman
how were these stone's carved out again

By some very well-known methods using copper chisels, wood wedges, and wooden hammers.

since limestone is a very hard rock and granite well, lets just say it is a bit harder

Limestone has a hardness of 3 on the MOH scale... a bit harder than modern soft plastics (like the stuff your milk jugs are made of or that you soda comes in):
www.findstone.com...

That's softer than a well-tempered copper chisel -- the tool used by the ancient Egyptians.

Granite's hardness is only a 7 on the MOH scale.

how were these GIANT chunks carved out and where could they have been carved out of

There's many quarries found from ancient Egypt with remains of various stone blocks and so forth found in them. Here's a page with pictures of many of these old quarries. They do find workmen's tools from ancient Egypt in these places (as well as the houses of the workmen) :
www.touregypt.net...

Stone from each quarry is distinctive, so it's fairly easy to find out where it came from. Many of the Giza structures were made from local stone.

Also, the ancient Egyptians were constantly building, so there was always a supply of stone around... they didn't just wait for someone to say "hey! I'm doing a temple! I need some rock!" -- they had precut blocks waiting to be used in various projects (you can see those in the pictures on that page.)

, AND HOW WERE THEY MOVED TO THE SITE WHERE THE pyramids stand today (by camels, by levers? , how long would this take?

By road and by boat (the longest road they've found from a quarry is about 56 miles long.) This page has a picture of a copper chisel from one of the quarries AND a photo of one of the panels in Djehutihotep's tomb, showing them moving a huge statue (larger than any of the blocks in question.) The text on the picture (the hieroglyphs are writing ... just like our alphabet) talks about them pulling the stone statue on sleds (and this is what's shown in the picture.)
www.touregypt.net...

This page has a quote from an ancient Egyptian papyrus that talks about him being ordered to go dig canals and fetch granite from a quarry -- SPECIFICALLY for a pyramid. Now... if you're skeptical, you can look up the original document (in the hieorglyphic) and read it for yourself or read any number of translations... they all say it's for a pyramid. :
nefertiti.iwebland.com...

the conclusions made by historians that have been built upon for generations after generations were made at a time when man kind had a scrap of it's current knowledge and understanding but people have been pressured to make info. fit into a box for generations, and it ain't workin

The first rule of research is to find out what the authorities say and what the others say... and then do your evaluations.

So, for example, you're trying to tell us theories about quarries and you're not aware that quarries are the subject of a lot of digs and a lot of papers and a lot of artwork in Egypt. You aren't familiar with the titles of the supervisors and so forth.

Before you scold us, try finding out as much as you can on the topic. Many of the authors you've been reading don't WANT to admit that we can read hieroglyphics or that we have a lot of pictures and texts left by the Egyptians -- or even that there are thousands of units of "public housing" built for the workers at these large and ancient project sites.

Start reading the TourEgypt site... it's fun, it's fairly up to date, and it's got a lot of eye-opening things in it that you NEVER knew about Egypt and the Pharaohs and the pyramids!

Originally posted by vietifulJoe
Byrd,

Marduk and you are missing to acknowledge that ALL GROUPS OF MAN TOGETHER is placing that average 1 block per 2 minute.

Actually, we're not. What we're saying is that if you don't have them coming single file (one after the other) but if you have 20 teams of men working on the same side of the pyramid (moving 20 blocks into place at the same time) they can take an hour to move each block.

But the end result will look as if someone moved one block every 3 minutes instead of 20 teams taking an hour each.

How many groups were able to work together on building?

That's not known, but in the workers' villages and on the structures themselves are carved the names of the worker groups/teams. So it wasn't 5,000 men dragging up one block at a time. It was groups of well-trained teams working together.

Another question is ramp. How many groups of people were able to lift blocks at the same time?

As many as they could fit around the pyramid. If you could fit 100 teams on one side, you could have as many as 400 teams of 50 men working on the whole pyramid at the same time.

Originally posted by Marduk


so perhaps you can understand now why the more knowledgable members on this board arent taking you seriously

Kids, kids.....

Who where knowledgeable members on this board? Who when they are not taking the guy seriously?
You are paranormal? Or you just fantasizing everyone is on your side.

And................. why you keep on answering this guy? Seems to me you are taking this guy seriously, which means you are NOT knowledgeable at all.

I think all your posts and writing are not credible at all, and contribute nothing to this ATS except a bunch of punching keyboards. And certainly you are not knowledgeable at all.

Sorry, a bit personal, but it is better than annoying posts from someone who is not credible at all and less knowledgeable.

Originally posted by shrunkensimon
Wow marduk, what a comedian u are.

The method of pyramid you suggested...care to provide some evidence that this can actually be done? Or how multi ton blocks of stone can be supported by a wooden scaffold.

I said the Kings Chamber resonates, not the limestone. Read what i say properly before you attempt to insult me.

Actually you are wrong about where Christianity etc comes from, because they all do have there roots embedded in ancient Egypt. Israel, for example, has its name taken from 3 Egyptian dieties, Isis, Ra, and El, which when combined; Isis-Ra-El. or, Is-ra-el.

have u even looked at the Pyramids? They match the Orion constellation pretty damn well. Im not saying there is anything more to it, like hancock etc said, but simply that they do match the constellation pattern.

The Illuminati, secret society? Shows how much you know. It is not a society, it is merely a term to account for all the people "at the top" in various positions of power, various secret societies, various government positions etc etc...

They don't need to advertise themselves, they were merely letting Americans know who had just taken control of their banking system.

calling me a troll? ha, thats rich considering what you just posted.

He is joker, self pretender. I can not imagine if he is a lecturer in university.

Yes he will provide evidence, he will give you all those staff he read which he thought credible. He judged credible or not credible as he wished.
All he could provide you were books he like to read, other books he don't read are not credible.

Someone talked, another guy wrote, some people read and heard, they spoke, the others wrote, and so on and so on for thousand years...... lastly, Marduk read and heard, he picked what he likes, and kabooommmmmmmm he called it evidences.

What he likes to read and to tell are evidences, while others are pseudo-sciences.

All he knows are those books around his table and punching his keyboards, and he assumes himself is credible.
No, he never seen pyramid or anything except books on his table.

This guy is simply not credible at all, and no knowledge. Watch out.

Byrd,

do we have written documents on who builded pyramid without telling us how they have built them?

As far as we know (and even with that much evidence, we don't know much) those teams might have all different function. They might have worked on reconstruction or on some other constructions.

We assume that they were building great pyramid the same as we assume that it took them about 20 years to build them.

Am I wrong?

[edit on 1/17/07 by vietifulJoe]

The words can of worms spring to mind, along with opened!

IMO, people need to chill out and respect other people beliefs. If I say that car is blue, its blue to me. If you say its red, then its red. End of story. This is the same prinicple that the major religions fall out on....'Our god is better than yours...No He's not etc etc' Then we all fall out and go to war.

But enough of that. Back to the pyramids. What we know about the pyramids is taken from people who dig a hole in the ground and try to find something worth money. If they don't find anything interesting, off they go and try to make a discovery about something thats already discovered. My point being, is that in reality we actually know very little about the pyramids and how they were built....just abit of guess work here and there by educated people who have applied what we THINK we know of the past into thier building. But lets look at some points here.

1. The offical timescales do not match. Between the Sphinx and the Pyramids. Some sources reckon that the Sphinx could predate the Great Pyramid by at least 10,000 years. If this is so who built them and why?

2. There are buildings on the Islands of Scotland, which predate the Pyramids and yet show the same accuracy of building. e.g inline with the revolutions of the sun/moon.

3. For the manpower involved to build the pyramids the generally thought of way, we should be able to dig up mass graves with the workers showing spinal deformity, missing limbs and signs of great stress upon thier skeletal structure. And I mean every skeleton should show signs of this as these builders done it day in and day out. Can you imagine the stress upon the spinal cord pushing and pulling these blocks? Yes, we can dig up SOME graves, showing these deformities but it only works out about 5% of the calculated numbers thought to be employed. so how come the rest are ok?

4. Still on the workers, it is known that they were not slaves, but were actually paid to work, so what about the rest of the jobs? Did they bring in imigrant workers from some other place to farm, bake etc?

5. Today, with modern technology, we could maybe just replicate the precise building of the pyramids using computer programs such as solidworks and 3d building packages. How on earth did the builders manage it using papyrus and ink and quill? Come on folks think about it, this is the serious flaw in the orginal building method.

6. Remember that the pyramids where also covered in a smooth surface, which could be made from marble, granite or some rock thats similar. Giving that, the building feat is even more remarkable and these where said to interlock giving the impression of being jointless. Look at the rough stepped pyramids we have now, and think on how they attached smooth sheets weighing tons to these sides.

I'm not saying I'm right, this is just my point of view. If anyone comes along with cold hard FACT and not just googled links then by all means let me hear them. If however you try to force your theorys onto me I'll just ignore it and pursue my discussions with more intelligent and sophisticated conspiritors.

Yours,

Willie
Member of the Bravarian Illuminati, OTO, GTO, The Blue Peter Club, The Shadow Government, A Reptilian Squadron Leader, and last but not least Keeper of the Great Ancient Secrets That No-one Believes Because Modern Science Dismisses It.

I keep wondering about another question related to this discussion. When and from where did the architectural (sp?) knowledge exactly come from to the builders of these World Wonders? Did they stumble upon some hidden texts, God given thru a dream, or one man just had a brilliant idea some thousands of years ago? It is a truly remarkable accomplishment.

you are assuming that the Gizamids are the first pyramids in Egypt
they weren't
the egyptians started building pyramids over 100 years earlier
they were so good at that from the get go that the Pyramid of Maidum actually collapsed forcing architects working at the pyramid of Dashur to change the angle of the slope
The maidum Pyramid was Built by Khufu's father Sneferu
here you can see the core surrounded by sand and debris

he had planned to build three pyramids
the first collapsed and the knowledge gained from this error was used to correct the second pyramid known as the bent pyramid
you can see how it got that name by looking at it

with what he learned on these two earlier attempts he then built the red pyramid


however
there are earlier pyramids
the first was built by the King Djoser and is a step pyramid


it stands at Saqqara

so its not like they got it right first time
the Djoser pyramid is a step pyramid
in fact all the pyramids are built in this fashion and then an outer core is placed to make them smooth

step pyramids in turn developed out of Mastabas which the egyptians were building for centuries
so the advancements to true pyramids were not as if by magic pulled out of a hat
they were learnt by trial and error

by: Byrd
That's actually mostly urban legend. He was using modern tools unavailable to the Egyptians. There's pictures of him standing around with his coral blocks hoisted into the air and ready to load on his truck ... by a very ordinary and commonplace (for the time) setup of 3 poles and a block and tackle pulley. And some chains.

Yes, but the difference here is that Coral Castle is real. It's concrete, it's there. Noone apparently saw Edward raise the blocks, nor move them. They only saw the block, (maybe a few) already hoisted. The picture you reference, also has a box covering whatever Edward had positioned on the top of the the 3 poles, and block and tackle. Which he never elluded to, except his saying he knew the secrets of the Egyptians.

Furthermore, the man was old, small and maybe hit 110lbs in wieght. Noone ever saw any evidence that anyone helped him with his work. So for now, the theory is he did all the work alone—and manged some IMPRESSIVE feats, that IMO, rival the pyramids.

So all I'm saying is that, perhaps (and most likely) there is something unknown about the techniques used in the pyramid construction. And I was really just sharing with the OP, if he didn't know about him, so he could maybe research it himself, in regards to his theory of sound and water.

Just to be clear, so you all know my poosition; I believe the pyramids were built by Egyptians, or rather people. I just don't accept the current construction theories at face value. Not that something paranormal or magical helped, just maybe, Edward figured out how to lighten mass. There are many theories as to what he knew, and applied, but all interesting nonetheless.

nextguyinline,

I am currently looking into the , "Coral Castle'. Thanks very much for your addition to the thread, it's indeed great to see that we have the same general line of thinking. I agree, there's nothing in my stance intended to elude to any magical or even alien help, (although that of course has been hinted at by people) I just thing there is more than meets the eye, or maybe than meets the bare hand you may say!

Again, thanks for your help, Mondo

Point taken... but math seems to be the applied technology base line for all languages..And what I mean is that the way some past cultures have managed to use basic math principals as problem solving such issues as simple building or black smithing etc. We can't simply just rule out a civilization didn't have some sort of advance knowledge of basic math or applied science technology that we still use today? I mean we many use fiber optics and such, but...We still use knives,arrows,spears to hunt with. Some times a simple advancement is the knowledge to lean out and make things so simple that every one can do it. I still use the same knowledge of Edward H. Angle the basis founder of Orthodontics every day in my lab and with all the leaps and bounds of technology in our field the basic's are still over 130 years old? So since we still use his basic's today would you say he had advanced knowledge of the future?

So since we still use his basic's today would you say he had advanced knowledge of the future?

comparing that to the pyramids is a little erroneous if you don't mind me saying so
what did you use before you had Mr Angles knowledge in your lab ?
stone knives and bearskins.
he built on already known techniques to come up with what you are now using as a standard
at some point someone else will come up with something better based on his ideas
this is whats generally known as progress


the techniques that built the pyramids are well known
we know where they quarried the stone
we know how they moved it to the construction site
we know how they used it to build the pyramids

so wheres this advanced technology that you seem to require to believe they could do it

we do use fibre optics and we do use knives
but in each case the technological road to being able to use them is a very long and well documented one

it keeps coming back to this
the well read members of this forum have no problems with understanding exactly how the pyramids got to be there
the less well read are constantly mystified and need to resort to claims of aliens or lost advanced technology
the solution of course is read more and make sure you are reading the work of people qualified to comment

oh
and if I hear one more claim of "we can't move blocks that big with our biggest modern crane" I'm gonna ram a Mammoet PTC III right down their throats


[edit on 17-1-2007 by Marduk]

Has anyone seen documentary about new discoveries that are leading to believe that today's Sahara used to have vegetation and wild life in more recent history then that's told in today's history books?

Originally posted by Mondogiwa
, what i am trying to ascertain is the available ideas as to technologies that the ancients may have had.
And, as stated before, i appreciate all comments, critcism and compliment, so thanks for the challenge and response!

Peace, Mondo

just was reading your thread sorry only on page 3 but i had to add my thoughts so here goes

My thoughts are that the egyptians used dams or causways from the nile to the pyramids and ships to get the blocks there using the ship sails or windpower and ropes to manuver the blocks into place. I also wanted to ask your thoughts about wheels and pullies being used and what about a balloon why couldnt they use those I mean all you need is a big sail with a few holes and some hot air in it and it lifts.
good thread here very thought provoking

Originally posted by vietifulJoe
Byrd,
do we have written documents on who builded pyramid without telling us how they have built them?

Yes to some of the pyramids. We also have the names and titles of the building teams (Chief Stonecutter, Overseer of the Western Wall, etc, etc) and we have many tablets of "Received from this quarry 50 blocks of limestone" as well as some drawings of the stones being moved on both boat and by oxen. There are documents of other large-scale projects involving big blocks of stone.

There's even a note from the pyramid workers saying they will go on strike if they don't get eyeliner! (eyeliner protected eyes from the sun's glare and was important to them)

And official reports to the pharaoh about building roads and temples and so forth.

There are stone stelae and tombs carved with the achievements of the people who worked on these projects.

As far as we know (and even with that much evidence, we don't know much) those teams might have all different function. They might have worked on reconstruction or on some other constructions.

Remember that the Giza pyramid isn't just one pyramid (or three) in the middle of the desert. It's on the banks of the Nile, across the river from a big city, and it's nine (not 3) pyramids plus many streets and many temples (right next to the pyramids) -- and the Sphynx, of course. There were boat pits and actually more than one smaller sphynx as well as statues and more.

This was a city for the worship of the dead pharaoh-god, so it had priests and temples and places for offerings and people lived there for quite some time.

We assume that they were building great pyramid the same as we assume that it took them about 20 years to build them.

Am I wrong?

The whole plateau was built over several generations in the 26th century BC (2600-2500 BC). So there could been as much as a century (or 150 years) of constant building there.

The temples outside the pyramids refer to the person they were built for (which is how we know the names of the queen's pyramids and the other pyramids.)

Originally posted by GregR1965
I keep wondering about another question related to this discussion. When and from where did the architectural (sp?) knowledge exactly come from to the builders of these World Wonders? Did they stumble upon some hidden texts, God given thru a dream, or one man just had a brilliant idea some thousands of years ago? It is a truly remarkable accomplishment.

No, they'd been working on it for quite some time.

The Ancient Egyptians weren't just a bunch of people with funny looking hairstyles who dug around in the mud. They were building sophisticated stone towns by 3500 BC and were building huge statues and temples by 3000 BC. But there is so much fuss and bother about the Great Pyramid that folks are led to believe it's the only complex and large structure in the whole country until Britain came to save them and civilize them (that last bit was just a tiny bit of sarcasm, there.)

Look at the workmanship of this temple, built in 2500 BC... look at the SCALE of the thing -- how it dwarfs the people:
www.bluffton.edu...

...and the even larger temple at Abu Simbel :
www.bernhardt.org.uk...

Temple of Hathor (restored) in the Valley of the Kings:
www.bernhardt.org.uk...

...etc, etc.

Furthermore, after the time of the pyramids they continued building in the same style and with the same techniques up until Roman times. The Temple of Hathor at Dendara is a superb example of this.

Originally posted by nextguyinline

by: Byrd
That's actually mostly urban legend. He was using modern tools unavailable to the Egyptians. There's pictures of him standing around with his coral blocks hoisted into the air and ready to load on his truck ... by a very ordinary and commonplace (for the time) setup of 3 poles and a block and tackle pulley. And some chains.

Yes, but the difference here is that Coral Castle is real. It's concrete, it's there. Noone apparently saw Edward raise the blocks, nor move them. They only saw the block, (maybe a few) already hoisted. The picture you reference, also has a box covering whatever Edward had positioned on the top of the the 3 poles, and block and tackle.

(sigh)

That's the structure that holds the 3 poles together and keeps them from slipping. It's an ordinary winch setup like they used on the railroads (and everywhere else.)

Furthermore, the man was old, small and maybe hit 110lbs in wieght. Noone ever saw any evidence that anyone helped him with his work.

I gave you the exact same setup, you could lift up to 7 times your own weight with very little effort. Three poles, hook, and block and tackle.

It's called a "block and tackle" and was invented (so history says) by Archimedes. In any case, this device has been in use since 300 BC
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by tsloan
Point taken... but math seems to be the applied technology base line for all languages..And what I mean is that the way some past cultures have managed to use basic math principals as problem solving such issues as simple building or black smithing etc.

Don't mean to be answering every little point, here, but we actually know a lot about ancient Egyptian mathematics (because they left behind scratch sheets of calculations and reports and other material about this.) They did add, subtract, multiply, and divide and could do some reasonably sophisitcated math.

Here's a school page on it (fun and easy to read)
www.eyelid.co.uk...

Our main source of information comes from the Rhind manuscript:
en.wikipedia.org...

Translation of some of it (note...without cultural references, it seems to be really weird gibberish. If you understand the terms, it's not so bad)
www.math.washington.edu...

More on this and other mathematical texts from Ancient Egypt:
www.math.buffalo.edu...

[edit on 18-1-2007 by Byrd]

Sigh.

Why did he feel the need to keep it covered? Can you show me pictures or drawings of any other 3 pole set-up that required a box to cover the bindings?

I know about 'blocks' and tackles. It's not a difficult mechanism to understand.
:edit: i'm done posting at this hour. sheese.

You can take that block and tackle set-up that your offering me, and by yourself, produce Coral Castle II. Then I'll agree with you wholeheartedly. If your attempting to diminish this mans accomplishments, well, I don't know what to say about it.

I'll be looking forward to your progress on Coral Castle II.

[edit on 18-1-2007 by nextguyinline]