Originally posted by madhatter
John Howard has no choice, we are here unprotected in the middle of nowhere, fact is Indonesia could walk in here and take this country any time it
pleases if we didn't have US support. My view is that we would've been gone long ago if it wasn't for that fact.
[edit on 2-1-2007 by madhatter]
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you there. Yes, Indonesia is the most populace Muslim country in the world and yes they are on our doorstep and
yes they are a potential future threat.
NO, they could not walk in and take this country anytime, because as populace as the Indonesians are, they are sooo disorganised that it is not funny.
They have so many internal conflicts from tribe to tribe/ island to island/ religion to religion that it would be very hard to immobilise them all
for a joint attack on Australia, to defend themselves if they were under attack might work better to resolving some internal differences but not for
an attack on us.
Heres an interesting article to read up on; titled 'How to eliminate the military threat from Indonesia'
Quote - "A lot of people believe that Australian military forces are necessary to defend against an invasion from Indonesia. But there's a much
better way to eliminate the alleged Indonesian military threat: support people's opposition to the Indonesian government. This should be obvious. But
to many it is not obvious, because Australian government policy is so self-contradictory."
And in support of your comment, which is based on punlic opinion is this -
titled - 'Indonesia seen as biggest security threat: poll"
quote - "It quoted a 2001 survey which showed 31 per cent believed Indonesia would be very likely to pose a threat to Australia's security compared
with just nine per cent for China, six per cent for Malaysia and five per cent for Japan.
The study showed public support for the defence force had grown steadily, with a 2003 survey revealing 82 per cent confidence in the organisation.
Next closest was the ABC at 71 per cent confidence while federal parliament attracted only 40 per cent.
However that doesn't automatically translate as a belief that Australia can defend itself.
In a 2001 poll, just 20 per cent agreed Australia could defend itself while 80 per cent didn't. However, there is a belief that defence is getting
better with 53 per cent in 2001 agreeing it was better than it was a decade earlier. "
In response to you Pine Gap quote - "Not to mention that Pine Gap is owned and run by the US still(as far as I know). It's a listening post for the
Southern Hemisphere, they're not going to give that up."
Have a read of this - titled 'Ground Truth - Pine Gap'
Quote - "Pine Gap, near Alice Springs, employs nearly 1,000 people, mainly from the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Reconnaissance
Office. Originally code-named MERINO, it is the ground station for a satellite network that intercepts telephone, radio, data links, and other
communications around the world. The facility currently includes a dozen radomes, a 5,600 square meter computer room, and 20-odd service and support
buildings. Two of its ground antenna are part of the U.S. Defense Satellite Communications System.
In 1988 a new 10-year lease for the US facilities was signed by then Prime Minister Bob Hawke. The agreement specified a three-year notification
period which required the Australian government to give notice in 1995 to close both Nurrungar and Pine Gap in 1998, when the leases come up for
renewal. Australia arranged to have greater access to the information collected by the bases."
Also this is pretty informative - titled 'The History of Pine Gap'
Quote - "SOMETIME IN THE 1960's
United States Government enters in to secret talks with the Australian Government on the topic of constructing a Satellite Relay Station somewhere in
Australia's inland. USGS (United States Geological Survey) begins to study geological maps and surveys of inland Australia. In either 1964 or 1965,
central Australia is selected as the region to construct the facility. Request is made to the Australian Government to provide suggested locations to
construct the facility. Proposed site is offered to the United States of a 25 acre piece of land owned by the Australian Air Force with the option of
expanding the land holdings. The site, located only 7 kilometres from the town centre of Alice Springs, is inspected by U.S. Government, but found
unsuitable. U.S. Government decides on Alice Springs environs as the site for the future facility."
"1974 - The Australian Government announces that Pine Gap is being controlled by the C.I.A.
Unauthorised photographs and other information from inside the facility are reported to have been sold to Russia."
"1989 - Pine Gap is de-classified. Security is reduced and much of Pine Gap's operations become public knowledge. Pine Gap receives the name change
to Joint Defence Space Research Facility Pine Gap"
And just to rehash on the Indonesia as a current threat, please refer to the following article, titled - 'Real World Threats to Australia'
Quote - "It needs to be understood that currently Indonesia is not a threat. They have no capabilities to threaten us, and no particular desire to do
so. It is the hard facts of geography, however, that make Indonesia so vital to our national security and no amount of wishing will make that go
"It is in our vital national interest that Indonesia be a friendly nation (as it is in their vital national interest that we be friendly in return).
The dilemma for Australia is that some of the internal practices of Indonesia (especially the behaviour of their armed forces against segments of
their populations) are morally problematic for us, but equally the disintegration of Indonesia would certainly be a major problem for us, especially
if it came apart with a bang."
I honestly beleive that we have more to worry about from internal threats, no, not so called 'home-grown terrorist', but from secret elements within
the Federal Government structure that wish to press their plans forward with certain actions as the premise, actions such as 911 in regards to the