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What if Bugging Out isn't the thing to do?

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posted on Dec, 26 2006 @ 08:06 PM
What do you do if the survival situation does not involve the fall of civilization, but only of decency (yeah, too late, I know). What would your preparations be to stay under the radar in a police state while attempting to organize a resistance?

A surveillance state has been in the making in your country for 5-10 years.

A national ID with an RFID device on it is required to be carried at all times. It provides the authorities with access to all of your biometric, background, driving, and other information known to the gov't. It is used to verify your identity along with an RFID in your debit/credit card at most major stores for no-checkout payment, making it almost entirely 100% necessary for most retail purchases. It can also be pinged by the same radar devices that are used at most intersections and freeway ramps to ping RFID license plates as a means of speeding enforcement.
In essence, your whereabouts are always known if you maintain the means to conduct commerce and if you don't carry them regularly, it's like not carrying your drivers license- eventually the police will happen upon you and take you in.
Additionally, probable cause and due process have been loosened considerably under the guise of proceedural reform: although you theoretically have your rights, they are routinely infringed at low levels and you have little recourse, which means that if you are a threat to the government and get pulled over by the cops, you can pretty much abandon all hope.

Crisis: The surveillance state begins to take a decidedly authoritarian turn after a staged terrorist attack or other false crisis triggers massive, mostly false, economic hardship. Regressive economic measures begin to be taken designed to maximize corporate power and national power at the expense of common citizens. A new firearms law forbids the sale of handguns and handgun ammunition, as well as entire callibers of rifle designated as military weapons, essentially leaving shotguns and "plinking" carbines legal. The unemployed are required to be cleared with the government, and may be assigned to "job training" (read forced labor without pay) if able to work.

Poverty and apathy cause the majority of the population, though discontent, not to revolt, but their submission to the regime is generally tentative and there is an expectation that it will be temporary.

Objective: Organize a local political underground and make contact with other organizations in the area in preparation for either civil or armed revolution, without getting yourself sent to the gulags.

What would your moves be? Do you go off the grid and come in to organize, risking arrest, or do you stay in the system you're trying to destroy and go through the constant pains of trying to seem normal under Big Brother's watchful eye while going about your subversive business?

Where do you find the people you're looking for? How do you communicate? How do you outreach, formulate plans, equip and train to execute them, etc.

posted on Dec, 26 2006 @ 08:24 PM
Wow you made this hard except for one thing...

That poor homeless shmuck that hangs out at the local library has some connections. and there isnt a plan in place to sweep them off the street in quick order. How many of them homeless guys do you think there are out in society?

get 20 or so men from the homeless population. they probably would go willingly if you offered them some sort of way out of their own sad situation. now you got a platoon. Multiply that by how many major cities there are in the US and you have an effective army...

Dang gas is still legal.
Dang I need to repair that broken pipe with a new piece of PVC.
Dang isnt that a cool Estes Model Rocket.
Dang that is some fun play Dough...

Get the drift?

posted on Dec, 26 2006 @ 08:42 PM
the only problems with that plan is
A, they are probably homeless for a reason I.E. many home less people have mental problems and do we realy want to be arming people that talk to sewer rats.
B, many homless people may see that by stirring the pot may only make their situation worst.
C, it is one thing to have an army it is another to supply a army, hence frigging taxes.
u have a good Idea I just don't think the logistics are reasonable.

posted on Dec, 26 2006 @ 08:56 PM
Given the choice of going underground or staying legit i'd do both. I'd work within the system during the day and therefore being free as possible while being a part of the underground that is working to bring about said systems demise.

If enough people stay legit they can buy supplies and food for those that are actually forced to go underground.

It worked in France during WWII and would probably work in whatever country needed an underground movement to try and wins it's freedom back.

Just my thoughts on it,


posted on Dec, 27 2006 @ 01:22 AM
Alot of my thoughts on this matter veer off topic and into the political step.
I can outline the first step thou.
The first step you and your organization will have to take would be to find a way of removing the RFID device or ensuring that your location cant be easily tracked.

posted on Dec, 27 2006 @ 07:35 AM
Within any regime, no matter how repressive, there's usually a criminal element which in turn manipulates and/or compromises a percentage of the ruling faction. The criminal element is usually able to obtain weapons, supplies, information, favours, etc. Generally, they're tolerated because they return favours, information and deliver wanted-individuals.

For those with the motivation and nerve, insinuation into the fringes of the criminal element would be a preliminary step, whilst outwardly (at least at first) maintaining 'good behaviour'. It would gradually provide insight into rebel factions and would tutor in methods of evading 24/7 surveillance (false and multiple ID and other tricks of the trade). Head down, mouth mostly shut, ability to blend with the background. Observation.

In time, with luck, it should be possible to discern potential leaders and members within various resistance movements. Safe-houses would be revealed; critical contacts, etc.

That would be my way, anyway -- to hang around on the edges in a long learning curve, whilst appearing outwardly to be accepting of and submissive to the ruling-elite. See what works and what doesn't. See who is betrayed. etc.

posted on Dec, 28 2006 @ 04:54 AM
Well, here's my answer... I made the scenario kind of tough on myself, because I know all the stuff I'd try to do if I were a rebel and so I designed my police state to hedge against those things.

I'd be the most legit guy you ever met. You'd be able to set your watch by where my RFID was. Work 15 minutes before my shift starts, the bar 30 minutes after it ends, home by 10, church at 9:15 on sunday, etc etc.

Why? Because they've got a mass of data running through their hands so fast they don't know what to do with it. They have to filter for suspicious stuff.

Suppose that you came back to the construction site where you work after hours to steal some blasting caps, diesel fuel, and pipe...

Don't you think they are going to do background checks on the people who work at the site and question the ones whos RFIDs have NEVER been tracked in the city where they are supposed to be carrying them?

When they check my record, they'll find out that my RFID was last logged at the intersection near a movie theater 15 minutes before the last showing of a certain film, then again 10 minutes after the film would have ended. They'll have a record of me buying a ticket on my credit card too. Of course all I did was tape my wallet to the underside of the seat, then leave the theater and go steal some bomb making supplies from my jobsite, but their computers will never even flag me as a suspect.

Long story short, I'm going to bank on the fact that the surveillance state can only catch me if I'm either stupid or resisting. They won't have time to mess with people who look like they are complying.

As for resistance: the trickiest part is making the decision to trust somebody. Everyone has a few friends, but you'll need a large organization.

I'd shy away from using any organization that would be expected to cause problems, such as a labor union or a church, because informants will be cultivated in such places by the authorities. I'd probably take up more of a social life to whatever extent the new shape of society allowed it. Hit the bars, go to the gym, etc. Just be out in public and make it a point to engage people in conversation- try to make 2 or 3 contacts every day and maintain them at least weekly in order to screen them as possible allies.

Once you've got a network of people, you need to create a pretext for meetings. If a 10-20 people who have no affiliation through church, work, or school, or other movements suddenly start logged going to the same places at the same times at all hours, it's going to raise a flag. You'll need money to operate anyway, so the obvious answer to both problems for a resistance is to go into business. Once you've got a few people together, you consolidate the groups funds and use them to go into business. "25 guerillas and a truck moving company" or whatever. With your outfit all working together, and actuallly running a business, albeit inefficiently, you appear to have jobs when many of you are actually fighting the man full time, your group has a solid budget despite that, and you have an excuse for aquiring materials you may need.

Next you plan, and start creating excuses for carrying out your plan. One of you enrolls as a college student and declares a major in chemistry so it doesn't seem suspicious if he buys textbooks which can help you learn about making explosives. One of you applies for a job at the phone company so its no big deal if you're caught with the handset that you've been using to listen in on a suspected snitch. etc etc.

Your plan needs to involve surveillance- accounting for loyalists, informants, and police strength, watching for movement of higher authorities in the city, making special note of every day details you don't normally notice that would affect operations- traffic patterns, police response times, which streets are well lit and have bad concealment and which ones are easy to hide on, etc. It needs to involve logistics, what will you need to exercise control over the city, what do you need to acquire that, how long will it take you, etc. Also pay close consideration to where you fit into the big picture: Do you live in Quantico and if so what can you do to eff with the FBI? Does your town have a freeway interchange that a national guard convoy would have to use to get to a major city quickly, etc etc.

Of course you don't just want to act in your little down, you want to be part of an organized larger resistance. Your group is going to have to be large enough to divide certain round the clock responsibilities, and one of those is monitoring a police scanner. Find out where the police are having problems and meet the people who live there.

If widespread travel is still allowed, you'll obviously want to make excuses to go out of town and make contacts- buy tickets to sporting events or concerts from your group's funds as a pretext for it, whatever.

If not you'll want to have a few dedicated off-griders in your group and equip them to move offroad. Find them dirtbikes, horses, whatever, and break out the maps to plot a safe, out of sight course to wherever you want to make an outreach. Let him hang out on the outskirts of the town for a while monitoring the airwaves, get an idea of logical places that survivalists might be hiding in the area where he could look, etc.

That covers at least generally how I'd go about organizing a local resistance cell and trying to link up, but it leaves the one factor that really makes the whole thing interesting- how do you convince a submissive populace that the authorities are wrong.

I think in America, a huge part of resisting the NWO would probably be making them look like jerks, because the media will be working overtime making the resistance look like jerks, and Americans don't change their minds easily when the bully in power is from their party. You have to catch the bad guys doing things even their own political supporters wouldn't approve of... or just make it look like they did.

Work on surveillance techniques and put tails on cops/guardsmen/whoever is keeping order in the police state and local politicians until you get video of them doing the wrong thing, then copy the hell out of it and stuff it in every mail box in town over night along with still pics.

And if they don't do anything that offens their loyalists... you can always make it up. Can you imagine what the SS would do to a Nazi Party Member if there were pictures of a well made-up double for him kissing someone bearing that yellow star?

Well you can pretty much do that to the bad guys in the police state. Figure out what they hate and frame it. Take the corporate-power regime I used as an example.

You dress up a good body double for a business owner or low level politician who is well known in your area and have what looks like a news interview going on, then at the end of the interview, have him make on of those priceless "i thought the camera was off" slips...

"These are tough times but America will emerge smaller."

"OK, we're done sir."

"Great, that should keep the morons at bay for another month. I can't believe I had to cancel my weekend round of golf for this PR crap."

Ok, guess that's long enough. Not all of its solid gold, but they don't exactly teach insurgency in school- it's one of those guess your best and hope you live long enough to learn things.

posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 10:23 PM
I have a somthing to say, but first keep in Mind I am not trying to offend anyone, what makes u guys think any of you are going to be able to persuade anyone to fight with you. I mean you get a few but "you don't actualy have to answer this" when u ask to start a resistance whats going to make people stop and say I think this person can lead us to freedom and whats going to stop those people from running to The Man and turning ur but in.

posted on Dec, 30 2006 @ 01:14 AM
I think the situation sells itself. We're not talking about starting a war over a hanging chad- in that case you'd be totally right.

When the government blatantly begins making exceptions to the constitutional rights of the majority of Americans however, there will be a will to resist.

If people are looking at a government that will arrest them and put them in a forced labor camp if they lose their job, or one that throws your grandpa in jail because he wouldn't surrender that little revolver he keeps in the closet to ward off intruders, etc... when a large portion of Americans are conscious that a right they value is being violated, they will have a basic understanding that they ought to resist.

There will be two inhibiting factors. Number one, the feeling that you can't win, are just one person, etc. Number two, the feeling that you're being to rash, throwing away the promise of an otherwise great country over something that maybe you could learn to live without.

The key then to a political resistance is exactly that- to be political. Not to start hoarding weapons immediately, not to firebomb city hall the first day a curfew is in effect, but to get out their and establish a flow of information between the people, so that they can be assured that what is at stake is not just one issue but the democratic will of our society. By doing that, and offering them the possibility to act against it without immediately resorting to violence (ie, by first putting them to work at communication, political organization, intelligence gathering, etc) and holding out the hope that a popular demonstration of resistance will succeed before outright violence becomes necessary, there is a very real possibility that so long as you choose your friends wisely and keep yourself reasonable, you will infact find support.

The Orange Revolution is a great example. I don't think all of those people were ready to fight. But they were ready to march, and that gave a force that didn't have the will or ability to fight the credibility to avoid a fight. They got more done with grafiti, signs, and a large assembly than they could have gotten done with rifles and artillery.

Communicate, Organize, Demonstrate, Fight- in that order. By the time you get to fighting, chances are that you're choosing to die on your feet rather than live on your knees, or perhaps galvanizing greater political support, as opposed to actually having a chance at military victory, which is why you save it for last, and why you don't need to convince people to fight for you necessarily. Only a small core group is needed to be prepared for violence since a victory will almost certainly not be achieved militarily.

Also in the instances where it does go to an actual civil war and military victory, that too must begin with organization, and then galvanizing rather than strategic violence- the initial violence in a civil war is not intended to win, but to arouse the anger of a sufficient force to win later.

posted on Dec, 30 2006 @ 09:55 AM
sounds like you have it figured out, Sorry if i came off offencive i am canadian and not realy use to the notion of my government betraying me. To be completly honest my biggests fear is Manifest Destiny.

posted on Dec, 30 2006 @ 10:11 AM
RFID could be gotten around like you say, unless they put it in your body. Maybe that's why the Bible says anti-christ will do just that! If you don't take the mark in your hand or forehead, off with your head. Sounded outlandish till the last decade or so, and beheading being the fave of Islamic Radicals.....Who knows?

posted on Dec, 30 2006 @ 10:37 AM
Well in that case if someone planted somthing for tracking inside our bodies then we might not even know about it. you know what I mean, they could do it through our food or even when we went to the doctor or mabe we alread have them in preperation for the big day. they could have given it to us durring our hep vaccinations.

posted on Dec, 30 2006 @ 11:28 AM
All today the History Channel has been running "George Washington and his Generals." The very same tactics Washington used to win the Revolutionary War are being used against us in Iraq, Afghan and were used against us in Vietnam. When will we learn?

Q. How does an ill equipped and sometimes poorly led make-up army defeat the strongest miliary force in the world? Hit and run. Do the unexpected. Hide when you have to, come out when you choose. Do the unexpected.

Q. If the superior army cannot restore its overlordship over the country, what is its purpose in being there?

Q. As soon as you realize you are beaten, what do you gain by staying on?

Isn't that the definition of hubris? Maybe we better stick to Granada and Panama types? If our lap-dog can't whip Hezbollah, we better not bomb Iran. Does that mean the end to the Rumsfeld Doctrine? So now we have an old retired CIA man and ex-college president running our DoD? Good Gawd A'mighty! Has B43 gone certifiable?

[edit on 12/30/2006 by donwhite]

posted on Dec, 30 2006 @ 09:42 PM
I understand what you're saying Don, I'm just not sure I'm picking up a whole lot of application to the thread, aside from the first Q. Maybe I'm just misfiring; I think I might have lost a few IQ points wrangling with a car dealer today (got a decent deal though). Care to translate English to English for a tired man?
(sorry if I'm failing to read between the lines sufficiently, I'm just somehow getting the vibe that you took this thread in the context of Iraq rather than an American insurgency against a police state)

posted on Dec, 31 2006 @ 07:54 AM

posted by The Vagabond
“ . . sorry if I'm failing to read between the lines sufficiently, I'm just somehow getting the vibes that you took this thread in the context of Iraq rather than an American insurgency against a police state . . [Edited by Don W]

Oops! You have a good excuse - wrangling with a car dealer - whereas I have none. One more off-topic comment: I am of the opinion that car dealers must a gross of $3,500 per transaction to stay in business. And now, what about a homegrown insurgency?

One reason I never engaged in the illegal street drug scene is because it seemed to me that half the people buying or selling drugs were either undercover cops or turned informants. It would not take five minutes for the PIC - people in charge - to re-direct the DEA and all the local anti-drug joint task forces to domestic insurgency control.

If you and a couple of your buddies sit down to think out what you can do to inflict pain on the governing power, you better figure one or two of your cohorts are working for the Government. This is partly because the level of resistance will vary from person to person. What one guy is willing to tolerate, another guy may find sufficient to motivate him to resist. So your “background” of support will be spotty, it will be unpredictable across neighborhoods. I’m thinking especially of the contrasts so evident in the 1960s-1970s period in our cities.

The best example where a successful guerilla force - a/k/a insurgency - in the US of A would be sustainable is found is in the African American but not in the Hispanic population. The African Americans have a long history of suffering abuse by the police and crippling racist decisions inflicted by the legal system. It would not surprise me to find that 20% of the blacks behind bars are innocent. But more related to your inquiry, 100% of African Americans know that.

Strangely enough - maybe not to you Mr Vag - I regard myself the most likely to be resistant to the overreaching power of the central government run amuck. I oppose the Patriot Act. I denounce Guantanamo Bay and torture and the people who authorized it. Not so much the guys who do it. I reject preventative war, but I accept pre-emptive strikes. If real and provable. Almost alone on another board, I protested the sham appeals granted Tim McVeigh prior to his execution. Seven days before the scheduled execution the FBI revealed it had “overlooked” 4,000 pages of documents the laws of criminal procedure and evidence required to be turned over to the defense team before the trial. In a hurry-up mode after just 3 days for review, the trial judge claimed to have read and digested the material in those papers and arrogantly ruled the papers contained nothing of legal consequence. Hubris to much excess.

Then followed too rapidly for even the appearance of decency, the 3 judge Court of Appeals which in barely 24 hours - and not surprisingly - reached the same conclusion the trial court had reached, and made the same pronouncement, ”nothing in here that would have changed the outcome of the trial.” Stand clear of the steamroller! That oft used but always dubious judicial decision is called in legalese, “harmless error.” And so the execution was held “on time” and “as scheduled.” A triumph for the concept of a “speedy trial” if not of a “fair” trial!

The proper and only remedy for such a gross mishandling of evidence by the prosecution is a new trial.

OTOH, I do not support such extremists as Randy Weaver or David Keresh. because of the facts - which we all know - and especially because of the time delays in each case. I believe in government, in good government, and in the rule of law.

Back to Tim McVeigh, I oppose the death penally for the very excellent proof found by the Illinois Death Penalty Project run by Northwestern U Law School, in which 11 of 139 death row inmates were found to be innocent. Every one of those cases had passed the appeals process. Any system that produces that kind of shoddy result is a farce on justice. Governor Ryan suspended the DP in Illinois until it is fixed. Which was commendable but he should have done more. I remain perplexed how persons of good will can continue to support a system so demonstrably flawed.

Conclusion: Any insurgency in America would have to be based in the African America community. Numbering about 40 million people, they alone know how to deal with “the man” and can readily identity those who have been turned from those who are loyal to their cause. It may sound supremely ironic but the best chance for democracy to survive repression by a totalitarian regime in America lies with those who have suffered the most, suffered the longest and who get the least from the democracy they would then be called upon to save or salvage. I trust them to do right.

[edit on 12/31/2006 by donwhite]

posted on Dec, 31 2006 @ 01:06 PM
It did not occur to me at first, but the last 2-3 days, everyone is saying “surge” is Newspeak for “enlarge.” Sort of a half-gutted Westmoreland request for “100,000 more troops” to gain the victory n sight but just out of our reach. I actually believed the “surge” idea was to be a temporary increase on the man on the ground in Baghdad, to gain the upper hand.
Now I see it was a “dirty trick” to negative the voters November 7 choice.

Fortunately - as I see it - this idea of “surge” is not going to work after January 4. There will be hearings, which we have not had since 2001 - I mean genuine and not staged - and that will put the quedas on a “surge.”

LBJ lost the Vietnam War because he lied to the American people. Bush43 has lost the Iraq War because he lied to the American people.
Staying on is only hubris of which we already have too much.

[edit on 12/31/2006 by donwhite]

posted on Dec, 31 2006 @ 06:31 PM
Great comments Don. I definately agree that counter-intelligence is a serious issue for any political movement opposed to the government on any substantial level, be it the formative stages of a revolt or merely a voter's organization.

For this reason, I believe that compartmentalization is essential to an organization. You've got to form core groups of people who know eachother well and trust their common history, and contain within these groups any information not necessary for interaction with other cadres or the "rank and file" support.

I see this in practice by smart organizations. When the boys at the union hall need a vote to go through and don't want to tip their hand about what's up, they turn to a guy who's been with them for 30 years and done right for them many times, such as my father, they tell him what's up, and ask him to use that information and the "just trust me" rights that his experience gives him to make sure that the vote turns out right without risking too much to loose lips. Afterall, if the BAs tell the guys "this strike is a bluff, if they don't cave immediately to save their schedules, we'll cave", then there is no way in hell it would work, because some stupid apprentice would bump his gums.

The same principle applies in more fringe movements. You've got to create secure information channels that don't include every new guy.

posted on Dec, 31 2006 @ 07:55 PM

posted by The Vagabond

I agree that counter-intelligence is a serious issue for any political movement opposed to the government on any substantial level, be it the formative stages or merely a voter's organization.

For this reason, I believe that compartmentalization is essential to an organization. You've got to form core groups of people who know each other well and trust their common history, and contain within these groups any information not necessary for interaction with other cadres or the "rank and file" support.

I see this in practice by smart organizations. After all, if the BAS tell the guys "this strike is a bluff, if they don't cave immediately to save their schedules, we'll cave," then there is no way in hell it would work, because some stupid apprentice would bump his gums.

The same principle applies in fringe movements. You've got to create secure information channels that don't include every new guy. [Edited by Don W]

In the 1950s we saw the McCarthy era when good people were coerced to do bad things. We saw government at its worst when J Edgar Hoover had MLKJr under surveillance and then, false stories were planted to harm his reputation and to damage the Civil Rights movement. Nixon had his enemies list which was real. Not to lay all blame on post War 2, recall from history the Red Scare of the early 20s and the Sacko-Venzetti Case? I regret to say that with the rise of private armed forces inside America and the privatization of Special Ops Forces, I have no doubt the recent Hewlett-Packard fiasco is not more common than we’d ever dream.

We know the president ignores the statutory provisions on monitoring or eavesdropping and we know this president has “signed off” on over 800 laws passed by Congress. I never heard of this (sign-off) before B43 but critics say it was not invented by him just that he has done in more than all other predecessors combined. Which to me none of them should be allowed to get away with. Were are our judges?

The Constitution is clear about the veto. But who ever heard of signing a law into effect, but scribbling a note that "I am not going to obey section so and so." If I were a judge, I’d rule than any qualified acceptance is a veto of the whole. We don't have line item veto, yet.

Now here’s the down and dirty about secret organizations. How do you make as sure as you can that one insider will not betray the group? The only wayI know is this: Threaten to kill the family of the traitor. To the 3rd generation. (I think that is from the Bible.) Anything less than that is just a social club. As James Dobson would say, “That’s tough love.”

[edit on 12/31/2006 by donwhite]

posted on Jan, 1 2007 @ 07:16 AM
First, Mr Vag, you’d need a group of people you could trust. You’d have to go back to people you knew before the circumstances grew so bad that you are thinking of taking out-law actions the government would regard as treasonous at worst or criminal at best. In any case, you would be risking death when apprehended - remember the unarmed Jamaican in NYC - the unarmed Brazilian in London - Steve Biko in SA - Che Guevara in Bolivia - al Zarqawi in Iraq - etc - and the certain conviction in what would be more sophisticated versions of old time kangaroo courts. A court where the outcome is known in advance. Reminiscent of Baron George Geoffrey of the English Star Chamber Court. Known popularly as the “Hanging Judge.” All felonies were capital cases and there were over 200 felonies on the book.

So where to you find such a group? A lot of places. Masonic lodges. Knights of Columbus lodges. Other small local lodge-type groups. On campuses, in fraternity and sorority houses. In faculty clubs. In local book clubs, in labor unions. At golf clubs, boat clubs. Investment clubs. At any place where people have been associated for a long time, so that they know each other before the time to resist has come. You must of necessity be wary of people new to you, especially after the advent of bad times.

Then, as you suggested Mr Vag, you’d have to compartmentalize the group. You’d need to use a fundamental unit that is large enough to accomplish some important task, but no larger. Perhaps 3 or 4 men and women in the unitary group. No one person would know people outside his sub-group. So how do they communicate, coordinate and decide what and when to act?

Suppose you decide or by chance are assigned to a 4 man electric power sub-station “intervention” unit. You already know how vulnerable the country’s electric power grid really is. Brown outs and black outs can be caused by the failure of the smallest component. Certainly inconvenient and highly visible, but unlikely to be decisive in any political struggle.

But look how easy it would be to “irritate” the power elite. No pun intended. Highly accurate electronic kitchen timers are available at any notions store for $1 or less. White phosphoreus is the most destructive chemical I am aware of, but I don’t know where to go to get it nor how to handle it nor how to start it burring at a predetermined time. But a lot of people do.

You can imagine if 4 guys drove 100 miles in each of the 4 compass directions, one to the north, one south and so on, then located any active sub-station, and at a predetermined time, set a white phosphoreus device to destroy 2 or 3 transformers. They could begin their journey back to the starting point and be half way there when the 4 devices go off. You can assume there would be a large cascading effect to what is in reality a small endeavor. Looking at it from the other POV, how do you guard the over 20,000 power sub-stations around the country? It ain’t gonna be easy for either side, and a lot of people are going to be inconvenienced if not worse. Let’s hope conditions do not come to that point. We have survived a Civil War and the horrible counter-reconstruction in the South that followed until 1954. We survived the Great Depression and 2 world wars.

Even today, with the counter-productive power of ear-marks gone unchecked, we can see the effects of November 7. Sure, if that fails to begin turning the ship of state in a more salutary direction, then it may mean it is time to think of other alternatives.

[edit on 1/1/2007 by donwhite]

posted on Jan, 1 2007 @ 12:08 PM
Well, James Dobson, like most X-cons, does scare the hell out of me, so it might work. I don't think he'd call that plan "Tough Love" though. Dobson's franchise already has a name which fits that policy better than "tough love". It's called Focus On The Family.

Call me the kind of guy who watches his friends out of the corner of his eye if you like, but I'd be slow to do my survival-preparedness networking in a church or a lodge of any kind. I believe that in certain key places such organizations are more likely to already be watched on some level, if not even have plants in them in certain cases. Afterall the great thing about being in control of all mechanisms of law enforcement is that you can pretty much do whatever you want (which is exactly what signing statements are about), so why not use that power to scope out all those secret organizations?

I think you have to very specifically choose people you've known for years and been through things with regardless of where you met them. If I had to choose between trusting a guy who I saw at the Masonic Lodge and nowhere else for several years,(I'm not a mason, just hypothetical) or a guy who goes to the same bar as me, if my assessment of the two men was otherwise equal, I'd take the guy from the bar because I've got less to worry about in terms of the politics of a split in the group under extreme circumstances (like rebellion) and I've got a pretty good idea that the FBI isn't infiltrating Flaherty's Pub.

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