Is Torture ok?

Originally posted by mr conspiracy
Would you hold the same view if the torture victim was someone you really loved, like a close family member?

If a relative was a brutal terrorist and indiscriminately killed others (including women and children) and had knowledge of others like him??? Is that your question? My answer is ABSOLUTELY!!! In fact, I'd like to be the one doin' the beatin'!!

Originally posted by mr conspiracy
basically, i wanna know how would you react if your mother was held as a terror suspect and CIA allowed Libyans to pull her teeth and nails, and do all sorts of abuses which we all saw our own boys do to Iraqis in Abu Ghraib prison?

I would turn her in and place a full-page add in the local paper publically apologizing, on behalf of my family, for her acctions.

You would not mind those terrible things happening to your daughter or son, if they were held by CIA?

You would allow that kind of suffering on your loved ones?

I would turn them all in and place a full-page add in the local paper publically apologizing, on behalf of my family, for their brutal murderous acctions.

Regarding Abu Ghraib: Those prisoners were by and large POW's (Iraqi Soldiers) and therefore should have been afforded the full protection guaranteed by the Geneva Conventions. Those reservists were clearly wrong to do what they did; which is why they were punished.

Originally posted by aape
No one has planted any nukes except usa so stop referring to that. And tortute is not honorful act of perversed mind. It has been used throught human history but that is not an excuse to torture people. Only places that i know where torture is used today are middle east and usa. There 100% are more places, like uncivilized countrys prisons etc. So?If you wan´t to start torturing people for information (that could inculde civilians under your states, not just "insurgents" and "terrorists".) go ahead. It´s just wrong to persuade people thinking torture is acceptable.
-aape

We are giving you the grounds on which, we think it would be proper to Torture someone. American Mad Man, just happens to think the circumstances must be much more than devistational to perform any act that would be considered Torture.

I, on the other hand, would think 100, or even 50 lives are worth Are worth the compromising of one mans comfort for as long as it takes.

Even if he didn't commit the act, and he has information that is vital to those 50 people, he should spill the beans willingly, if he wishes to have a peaceful time in custody.

[edit on 22/12/05 by Kokasion]

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
[I would turn them all in and place a full-page add in the local paper publically apologizing, on behalf of my family, for their brutal murderous acctions.

Do you advocate this treatment for terror 'suspects' or only for confirmed terrorists? I only ask because this is a possible evolution of torture. These days all you have to do is mention the word terrorist and the whole world is up in arms, proclaiming the suspect guilty and screaming for the thumb screws.

What I mean is terrorist suspects are exactly that - suspects. You know, all that 'innocent until proven guilty' stuff you hear about. What if your mum turned out to be completely innocent, and she had been tortured to the extent where she was never the same again.

As for torture per se, I don't believe that it produces accurate enough information to warrant its' use. I'm not one for the more fluffy 'you-can't-do-that-because-it's-not-very-nice' argument against torture, I simply believe that it is not particularly effective.

Originally posted by aape
No one has planted any nukes except usa so stop referring to that. And tortute is not honorful act of perversed mind. It has been used throught human history but that is not an excuse to torture people.

Actually you're quite wrong about that and we did not discuss chemical or germ agents which I believe torture would also be justified to extract information or leads to find any individual who carried such to destroy a population. The Soviets during the cold war set up many caches throughout our country as did we. Devices were also carried successfully across the Mexican border by the soviets, but would have little damage as compared to a retalitory strike. Now that we are the enemy of Islam those who are persistent unto their deaths will seek weapons to use against the US and diligence is necessary to stop those who will never stop seeking a breach in security and securing agents for the purpose of mass destruction,

Originally posted by Zanzibar


But, I'm betting there are more humane ways.

like what? asking them nicely... or offering them candy? torture is not something that should be just used on any suspect, but if the information is important then why not allow it?...

Originally posted by Kokasion
I, on the other hand, would think 100, or even 50 lives are worth Are worth the compromising of one mans comfort for as long as it takes.

Even if he didn't commit the act, and he has information that is vital to those 50 people, he should spill the beans willingly, if he wishes to have a peaceful time in custody.

Actually I completely agree with you here. In fact, if the torture can save even 1 life I think it's worth it.

First of all, torture is useless. The information gained through torture is in most cases unreliable, because people will say anything to make the torturing stop.

Second, it's immoral and should not be practiced by anyone. And some people still say we westerners are civilized What a joke!

I mean, how would you feel if one day you were walking down the street and some men in black push you into a black van and knock you unconcious.
A few hours later you wake up in a small dark room with only one lamp hanging from the ceiling, then some people start accusing you of being a terrorist and demand you give them information of the whereabouts of your terrorist buddies. But you have no idea what they're talking about, what friggin terrorists?
Oops, wrong intel! But they don't believe you, and so they start torturing you for hours on end.
Would you like that? Didn't think so. Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you.

Torture is only practised by savage barbarians.

Some of you people really disgust me

Originally posted by SwearBear
First of all, torture is useless. The information gained through torture is in most cases unreliable, because people will say anything to make the torturing stop.

It's not like we're idiots, we would know when somone is telling us the truth.
Among the Interigators, there are people that are like Lie Detectors, only not sensing if someone is lying. When # doesn't add up, they let the Professionals know. We can piece things together too, but we're much better at blowing them apart.

mean, how would you feel if one day you were walking down the street and some men in black push you into a black van and knock you unconcious.
A few hours later you wake up in a small dark room with only one lamp hanging from the ceiling, then some people start accusing you of being a terrorist and demand you give them information of the whereabouts of your terrorist buddies. But you have no idea what they're talking about, what friggin terrorists?
Oops, wrong intel! But they don't believe you, and so they start torturing you for hours on end.
Would you like that? Didn't think so. Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you.

In the case that you so vividly descirbed from a past experience of yours, Whoops, tough luck. But it's hard to say, "I'm not a Terrorist, what are you talking about?" When we picked you up with a bomb strapped to your back, walking into some Wedding with the "Time to Die" look on your face.

Please stop coming up with the "Well, what if?" I would suspect you were kindergarteners with proper typing skills.

Torture is only practised by savage barbarians.

Who better to hire for the job, than the Uncivilized Savage Barbarians that practice the art? Egyptians! I tell ya'!

And, You tell those Savage Barbarians that, to their FACES! See what happens.

Some of you people really disgust me

You need to grow up, if you think that such comments are really going to hurt our feelings... Or savage barbarian feelings for that matter.

Get a grip, there will be people that do things you don't like, even things that don't necessarly involve you. But.. If you are becoming Nausiated to the point of puking, I think you should see a doctor.

If an insurgent or millitant is ready to blow himself up or die fighting till the last bullet,what the hell makes you people think some torture would make him give info.lol jokers, its like asking a person who cant talk for information!

Originally posted by Kokasion
It's not like we're idiots, we would know when somone is telling us the truth.
Among the Interigators, there are people that are like Lie Detectors, only not sensing if someone is lying. When # doesn't add up, they let the Professionals know. We can piece things together too, but we're much better at blowing them apart.

Maybe. But they are still people, and people make mistakes.

In the case that you so vividly descirbed from a past experience of yours, Whoops, tough luck. But it's hard to say, "I'm not a Terrorist, what are you talking about?" When we picked you up with a bomb strapped to your back, walking into some Wedding with the "Time to Die" look on your face.

You're seriously saying that's the only case when the CIA or US government tortures someone? You've been watching too much 24, herr Kokasion.

You need to grow up, if you think that such comments are really going to hurt our feelings... Or savage barbarian feelings for that matter.

Get a grip, there will be people that do things you don't like, even things that don't necessarly involve you. But.. If you are becoming Nausiated to the point of puking, I think you should see a doctor.

That comment wasn't intended to hurt the feelings that you don't have, it was merely to express my feelings. I still have the right to do that ... right, führer?

Sure there will be people that do things that I don't like. But torture is still wrong. It was wrong when the Nazis did it, it was wrong when Saddam did it and it's wrong when the Americans do it.

If you think it's OK, then maybe you should make an appointment with the CIA? Maybe Mr. Smith can show you how it feels to get tortured by real professionals

[edit on 26/12/2005 by SwearBear]

In the case that you so vividly descirbed from a past experience of yours, Whoops, tough luck. But it's hard to say, "I'm not a Terrorist, what are you talking about?" When we picked you up with a bomb strapped to your back, walking into some Wedding with the "Time to Die" look on your face.

Right like we're actually going to capture that person alive...
Honestly do you put any thought into your opinions or is it just about knee jerk instantaneous gratification? Oh and by the way the whole pro-torture argument is based on a "what if" scenario (and a very unrealistic one at that) so its a little late to complain when someone comes up with a more realistic "what if" scenario to counter your premise.

That whole human lie detector thing is pop culture BS. You really think anybody will be able to read your body language and get a read on whether or not your telling the truth when your writhing on the floor in agony eyes jerking randiomly in every direction pulse spiking throught the roof as you beg for mercy? Please.....

Seriously this isn't some dramatic TV where the gruff hero's "hunches" are always right. This is the real world where people die and never come back where peoples lives can be ruined forever all because some overly macho guy followed his "hunch" to it's grim conclusion.

Originally posted by SwearBear

Maybe. But they are still people, and people make mistakes.

You're seriously saying that's the only case when the CIA or US government tortures someone? You've been watching too much 24, herr Kokasion.

I wasn't seriously saying anything, what I was trying to get across, is that we aren't going to pick someone up without some type of valid evidence. It might be wrong, because yes, people do make mistakes. But if you think you might be suspected to be picked up, I would think you either look like someone they're after, or you're getting into a bad crowd. Maybe doing something you're not aware of, or any intents you might have look suspicious.

Bush bashers and Anti-american organizations usually draw undesired attention that leads to dark, moist cement basements.

Sure there will be people that do things that I don't like. But torture is still wrong. It was wrong when the Nazis did it, it was wrong when Saddam did it and it's wrong when the Americans do it.

Agreed, but people could atleast show some graditude for the 'Wrench Monkeys' and respect the ideals of those that protect the country. Someone has to do the Dirty Work, I'm sure that there are a few souls that have been damned. A sacrifice that has probably been made several times for "The People's" Best interest.

If you think it's OK, then maybe you should make an appointment with the CIA? Maybe Mr. Smith can show you how it feels to get tortured by real professionals

Surprisingly, I look forward to it. Incase you didn't know, All Special Forces trainees go through the exact same torture techniques, practicing them on our own people so they know what to expect. I DON'T expect it to be some type of Joyride, or intoxicating Adrenaline Rush. But even if you are mentally Traumatized afterward, I heard that some people say, "What doesn't kill you, will only make you stronger."

Originally posted by boogyman
That whole human lie detector thing is pop culture BS. You really think anybody will be able to read your body language and get a read on whether or not your telling the truth when your writhing on the floor in agony eyes jerking randiomly in every direction pulse spiking throught the roof as you beg for mercy? Please.....

Not that type of lie detector, but Well informed. They would be able to tell when somone is lying when it doesn't add up with a compiled, 'Al Quida protocol' or contradicts some of our more Accurate information that's gathered NOT through torture.


[edit on 27/12/05 by Kokasion]

Deleted Double Post

[edit on 27/12/05 by Kokasion]

Kokasion...

Maybe it's your doublethink that causes you to think this way. As boogyman explained, you say, "don't give me any 'what-if' crap," while the ENTIRE torture thing is based on "what if." I also noticed how you didn't respond to that...

Anyway, if torture is ok, why the HELL did those people go to jail? You know, for the Abu Ghraib thing? Remember how they were a few "bad apples" who were not ordered to do this? Remember how Bush and the White House threatened to veto the torture ban? REMEMBER??? I know, that's a whole nother can of worms...

My point is, that lady and that guy should be freed and hailed. The president himself should toast them for doing such a good job. They should be re-instated into the military and PROMOTED!

Saddam should also have any torture charges dropped (if he's being tried for torture). Those people convicted of torture in the Nuremberg trials should not have been charged. That couple who tortured their foster kids should not be charged. Oh, yes, torture is soooo good.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Those people convicted of torture in the Nuremberg trials should not have been charged. That couple who tortured their foster kids should not be charged. Oh, yes, torture is soooo good.

How do rationalize genocide with torturing a known criminal or agent working against your country with evidence of weapons of mass destruction? Very odd thinking on this thread.

I've already typed this so many times, and I keep pressing back by accident.
So I'll keep it short.

I didn't feel the need to, since he wasn't asking a question.
I can't see why it would be a 'What if' Scenario, but I can understand what he's talking about. Though I disagree that if it were done professionally, it would still be considered 'What if'.

But before I'd like to explain that I think if you would have understood what he was talking about even, you wouldn't have mentioned a similarity between America and the others. Parents torturing children, because of a 'What if' scenario? I think they might have just been sick. I'm sure Saddams ordering of Torture's led to a large percentage of deaths as a result. So you're right, we should drop those and bring in more charges for murder. I don't know about the Couple from Nurmberg.

But, it is possible that some soldiers in Abu Gurhab might say. "What if there's a Dirty Bomb Somewhere?" And grabbed a Detainee and tortured him for information that is probably non-existant. But I was thinking of Professionals, who are properly informed. I'm going to give our Boys and Girls the benefit of a doubt, and say that they would properly to independent research then one of them would say, "There IS a bomb somewhere!" Then pick up a knowledgeble, Higher profile Suspect and extract the needed information, with or without torture.

Hey! You haven't responded to any points that I brought up? Actually, I've brought up alot of points that I thought were good, and no one from an opposing opinion has responded to most of them. It doesn't bother me much, I only see the void of responses as silent blessings. I'm sure none of you would want to Admit to agreeing that in some Cases, torture might be necessary, and justifiable.

Sure...

Torture has and continues to be used, for whatever reason. My problem is that you can't pretend you're all high and mighty and moral when you use torture. I'm talking about the idea that Saddam is bad because he tortured, Josef Mengele was bad because he tortured, Saddam's sons were bad because they tortured, but the US govt is good despite using torture.

I thought we Westerners were "civilized." I thought we were fighting "savages" (just ask the neocons). But, hey, it's civilized to torture, I guess. Guess we should get rid of that cruel and unusual punishment thing, though.

The biggest problem is that torture is ineffective. The military even acknowledges this. You'd admit to sodomizing your mom if someone was pulling off your nails or shocking your nether regions. But, "what if" there's a bomb that might go off somewhere? "What if" we can save hundreds, thousands, even millions by torturing one or a few guys?

Well, "what if" these guys are NOT terrorists or have nothing to do with terrorists? Ah well, drop him off somewhere and torture someone else. We have to break a few eggs, right?

Recent interview from Delta member Eric Haney states the truth about torture:

www.prisonplanet.com...

[Eric Haney, a retired command sergeant major of the U.S. Army, was a founding member of Delta Force, the military's elite covert counter-terrorist unit.]

Q: What do you make of the torture debate? Cheney ...

A: (Interrupting) That's Cheney's pursuit. The only reason anyone tortures is because they like to do it. It's about vengeance, it's about revenge, or it's about cover-up. You don't gain intelligence that way. Everyone in the world knows that. It's worse than small-minded, and look what it does.

I've argued this on Bill O'Reilly and other Fox News shows. I ask, who would you want to pay to be a torturer? Do you want someone that the American public pays to torture? He's an employee of yours. It's worse than ridiculous. It's criminal; it's utterly criminal. This administration has been masters of diverting attention away from real issues and debating the silly. Debating what constitutes torture: Mistreatment of helpless people in your power is torture, period. And (I'm saying this as) a man who has been involved in the most pointed of our activities. I know it, and all of my mates know it. You don't do it. It's an act of cowardice. I hear apologists for torture say, "Well, they do it to us." Which is a ludicrous argument. ... The Saddam Husseins of the world are not our teachers. Christ almighty, we wrote a Constitution saying what's legal and what we believed in. Now we're going to throw it away.

I agree with Mr. Haney. We have lost credibility as a nation in the last few years. As is said in this interview, "Americans voted for Bush out of fear, and so fear is what they will get."

Torture is for cowards and people who want revenge.

Torture is obviously OK - the US says so.

By that logic it's now OK to torture US citizens anytime China, Syria or even Iraqis think it's justified by their ultimate aims.

It's not the torture I find distasteful - it's the double-standards.

NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!

Never in my name! Never in defense of my life! Never in defense of those I love and/or care for! And NEVER in "defense" of something as ephmeral as "my country"!

Never would I allow MY soul to be so irreversibly sullied by allowing another human being to be tortured in my behalf!

NEVER!!

"An Injustice to One is an Injustice to All."

By resorting to such barbarous means as torture, we prove only that We ourselves are the true savages; Cowardice in our hearts, we cannot face the fate of death that might await us. We inflict not righteous death upon our true enemies, but taunt and torment those in our domain.

We are too stupid to understand our enemy, so instead we prove our inferiority to him by the cruelest means possible.

Disgusting!