Let's see, Manhattan is going to be dealt a devastating blow, tens of thousands of people will die, we have a terrorist in custody that knows the details but he doesn't want to talk.

And some of you say that torture for any reason is not acceptable.

What if we strap your family, your loved ones, downtown, and then let you make the decision? Bet your tune might sound a bit different.

Me? You don't have to take my blood family there, my countrymen are there and that is good enough for me. I'd start at the creature's toe joints and work up until he had total recollection of all the information I required.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I'd start at the creature's toe joints and work up until he had total recollection of all the information I required.

But Thomas, the process can be extended if one starts with bamboo under the nails. Passing up such a proven technique...

Good call, its a bad thing to neglect the basics of anything!

"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Adolph Hitler
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Mao Tse Tung
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Joseph Stalin
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Saddam Hussien
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Pol Pot
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Richard S. Nixon
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Oliver North
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - School of the Americas
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Hermann Goering
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Chang Kai Shek
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Tom Ridge
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Siyad Barre
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - General Augusto Pinochet
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Alexander Lukaschenko
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Hamas
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Mussolini
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Mobutu Seso Seko
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Samosa
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Ariel Sharon
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - George W. Bush
"Yes, if it protects our way of life and our nations security" - Apparently some ATS Members


DO YOU GET IT YET!!!!! DO YOU GET IT YET??? DO YOU GET IT YET!!! DO YOU GET IT YET???

You are all absolutely free

Originally posted by JFetch

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
There are many ways to torture someone without it being lethal.

Isn't the point of torturing someone to make them think you will kill them if they don't talk. Sure, you can cut off a finger, but that would make them think you would eventually kill them. Seems like you wouldn't want everyone to know you aren't allowed to kill them, or nobody would talk.

No. It's the psychology of making them suffer. Feeling cold without end, feeling tired and never being allowed to sleep, being hungry for real food, jonesing for a cigerette or favorite poison, not being allowed to see or speak to representation or loved-ones, being terrified of feeling pain, FEELING PAIN, being dis-oriented with regard to the time of day or day of the week, of never knowing if you'll be released... Every human being has a threshold of tolerance for pain and suffering and fear. To pin-point what that is without leaving marks, is high art and sometimes needed. Every soldier that has gone through the military has endured that sort of treatment to one extent to the other. The bottom line is in the big, bad real world, men are evil and must be met equally by those representing the righteous.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

1) Let's see, Manhattan is going to be dealt a devastating blow, tens of thousands of people will die, we have a terrorist in custody that knows the details but he doesn't want to talk.

2) And some of you say that torture for any reason is not acceptable.

3) I'd start at the creature's toe joints and work up until he had total recollection of all the information I required.

1) Well, I follow you on that one and I know ( unfortunately ) what I'll have to do in such situation.
Anyway I remember a movie, with Bruce Willis. He's a US Army General who have to deal with a terrorist threat, in NYC. I can't remember the movie name. Did you see it ? A Pretty interesting movie, isn't it ?

2) I'm still thinking that torture is disgusting and horrible.

3) What do you think of the Hanoï Hilton ? Do you know what they did to the US POW/MIA ? these men were thinking as you think.

Once again, it's hard to find what's true and what's not.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
I want to get everyone's opinion on the use of torturing prisoners of war and suspects in terrorism investigations. There are many ways to torture someone without it being lethal.

Non-Lethal to your body, but what about your emotional self?

I totally disapprove torture of any kind. What if he is innocent? Or tortue was manipulated?

Only way to make that doesn't happen is to make sure that tortue is illegal.

Torture is evil but it will always be a reality. Of course non-lethal torture might be psychologically harmful. That depends on the person. I had a good friend who was a Korean war POW. He was a pilot who was shot down. He spent several years there. Everyday his Korean captors would march them out into the courtyard and make them kneel. They would put the barrel of their weapon to their heads and pull the trigger. He said they all would piss themselves. Every time. That was non-lethal. And scarring. Sleep deprivation can also be very effective. But not lethal.
The bottom line is you can fight against the reality of torture all you want. But one day you might find yourself being tortured or an entire city might be held hostage. In that case, you would MOST LIKELY see things differently.
I'm not saying torture isn't evil. It is at extreme times a necessary evil.

[Edited on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Let's see, Manhattan is going to be dealt a devastating blow, tens of thousands of people will die, we have a terrorist in custody that knows the details but he doesn't want to talk.

And some of you say that torture for any reason is not acceptable.

What if we strap your family, your loved ones, downtown, and then let you make the decision? Bet your tune might sound a bit different.

Me? You don't have to take my blood family there, my countrymen are there and that is good enough for me. I'd start at the creature's toe joints and work up until he had total recollection of all the information I required.

The problem is, if someone doesn't even know the answers to your questions, they're going to confess anything just to stop the torture. Therefore, the info you get out of them might be worthless anyway. Imagine if I tie you up in the basement, torture you, and ask you for the answer to a question you can't possibly answer. If I don't stop, you're either going to tell me a lie, die, or go completely insane eventually. Remember, I won't accept, "I don't know" for an answer. I'll bet I could make you say anything.

[Edited on 11-27-2003 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Satyr

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Let's see, Manhattan is going to be dealt a devastating blow, tens of thousands of people will die, we have a terrorist in custody that knows the details but he doesn't want to talk.

And some of you say that torture for any reason is not acceptable.

What if we strap your family, your loved ones, downtown, and then let you make the decision? Bet your tune might sound a bit different.

Me? You don't have to take my blood family there, my countrymen are there and that is good enough for me. I'd start at the creature's toe joints and work up until he had total recollection of all the information I required.

The problem is, if someone doesn't even know the answers to your questions, they're going to confess anything just to stop the torture. Therefore, the info you get out of them might be worthless anyway. Imagine if I tie you up in the basement, torture you, and ask you for the answer to a question you can't possibly answer. If I don't stop, you're either going to tell me a lie, die, or go completely insane eventually. Remember, I won't accept, "I don't know" for an answer. I'll bet I could make you say anything.

[Edited on 11-27-2003 by Satyr]

Satyr, that's not necessarily true. Many POW's have been tortured and never broke. We are trained in this.

Tortue isn't going to get you anywhere when used against smart enemies.

They are just going to say what you want to hear, if they are tortued beyond what they can take.

The only way to get the information out is to convince them to tell you the truth.

Someone here in ATS once said, you can convince people by using emotion or money.

[Edited on 27-11-2003 by surfup]

There are also ways of ascertaining and corroborating whether or not someone is telling the truth without the use of lethal torture.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Satyr, that's not necessarily true. Many POW's have been tortured and never broke. We are trained in this.

Not against drugs we have now. If exposed for certain amont of time, POW are going to break too.

Originally posted by surfup

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Satyr, that's not necessarily true. Many POW's have been tortured and never broke. We are trained in this.

Not against drugs we have now. If exposed for certain amont of time, POW are going to break too.

Those drugs aren't new. And they're most likely not going to be wasted on POW's. On criminals, yes. Suspected terrorists? Yes. Truth serum is much more humane than other means.

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
Anyway I remember a movie, with Bruce Willis. He's a US Army General who have to deal with a terrorist threat, in NYC. I can't remember the movie name. Did you see it ? A Pretty interesting movie, isn't it ?

It was called The Siege, where a terrorist promted martial law to be implemented in NYC. It was a very interesting move.

Bruce Willis would've made a better soldier than actor.

Because of the topic having come back up in recent weeks, felt this thread earned a current place for discussion.

Has anything changed since when we all exchanged thoughts and ideas last? And why not, or how so?

Well, my position on this is pretty clear, I guess. I'm happy to contribute to any ECK thread, even if I disagree with you here. You are drawing the context such that we must torture some sod (who we KNOW can give us the info regarding an imminent nuke) so yes, of course the many outweight the few. It would seem that torture would be the answer.

But what about when that guy ends up not being THE guy? You cut him up, joint by joint, until he's just a torso, but he tells you nothing? How long is the line out in the hall?

This is where the argument for torture breaks down: The process results in innocents being tortured. You'll have to "drill down" through all those nameless arabs, listening to many innocent men scream. Then what? Toss their body on the pile. How many is enough? If you torture an innocent, it is a horrible crime.

Your scenario, where we have some arab tied to a chair and we know he's the guy who knows where the nuke is... It's just not realistic and I think you know this. We are not in a real war here, but a manufactured, psuedo war. Islamo-fascists may want to use nukes, but you'll probably get better results by torturing certain rich and powerful Americans if you want to prevent that future.

I'd sum my position up like this: In a world where "terrorists" (torture-targets) can be created just by adding their names to a list, those very citizens will probably eventually be subject to torture. As an American, I abhor torture, and I do believe that if it becomes defacto process for detainees, then it will eventually be used on American citizens. What you endorse, you must endure.

As an aside, how come it's a problem when drug threads degrade into "how to use drugs" but nobody grumbles when torture threads become "how to torture" threads? People who laughingly mention bamboo shoots under the nails have probably never had this done to them. I do hope karma allows them the chance.

Torture like the death penalty will never be an acceptable thing. You've the possibility of innocent people being tortured, and permant traumas occuring. You've the fact the act is inhumane, no matter how much you try to justify it. Once you let open the door, it'll only allow more things to get through, as it'll be abused by those in power.

Simple answer, I don't aprove of it, no matter who the person is, what they've done, what information they may have or how important said information may be.