Torture is not good, no matter the reason. Doesn't matter if it would save one life, or thousands.

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
Torture is not good, no matter the reason. Doesn't matter if it would save one life, or thousands.

I dont get why you would say that, so if the only way to get information that could save thousands of lives was to use torture you wouldnt use it?

I disagree with what you said but think it should only be used as the last measures, or if information is needed urgently.


[edit on 18-12-2005 by MiniYoda]

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
Torture is not good, no matter the reason. Doesn't matter if it would save one life, or thousands.

So if roughing up some guy would save your whole family and every friend you have, you would be against it?

Let me just say I am glad people like you are not in charge of my nations security.

Torture has it's place in the intel world. The situation of a nuke going off is probably the best example of when I believe it would be "right" to use torture.

Okay, we have to get a clear definition of what torture is before we can decide one way or the other if it is okay.

Torture is any act by which severe torment, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation, deterrent, revenge or punishment, or as a method for the extraction of information or confessions.

So, as we can all see, there is no such thing as a clear definition. Therin lies part of the problem.

Signatories of the Third and Fourth Geneva Convention agree not to torture protected persons (enemy civilians and POWs) in armed conflicts, and signatories of the UN Convention Against Torture agree not to intentionally inflict severe pain or suffering on anyone, to obtain information or a confession, to punish them, or to coerce them or a third person. Since the War on Terror began, this has been played with a bit to exclude certain "enemy combatants".

It's a moral issue, as many of you have already stated.

Do I consider using psychological torture as a means to extract information wrong? No. Do I consider using physical torture as a means to extract information wrong? Yes. But the "wrong" part of it changes so much in regards to the situation. Like my example above...how are we so sure that the people being tortured are the ones who have the information?

It's like the early witch-hunts. If they crack, they are a witch. If they don't, they are a witch. If they die, we just grab another and start again.

It's a hell of a moral dilemma, any way you slice it. I think that it is a very dangerous path for the US to travel.

Torture is a word being thrown back and forth like a softball. If you're job is to hunt bad guys who play with nukes and you are well aware that the individual before you has planted a device in the midst of an urban setting with approximately 1.5 million people, you are going to do everything in the nations and the millions best interest to find out where that device or agent is. If this requires ripping someones balls off and feeding it to them for lunch then so be it. There is no time to think about what is good for the evil bastard in front of you, only of a ticking clock that spells doom for possibly your own children who live in the city. In my book it's a clear choice, regardless if you have carte blanche.

Now on the other hand is torture acceptable for a POW or an individual being held for war crimes, or for those who are already dead? Common sense here and if some of you have a hard time understanding the difference between the two then you are as lacking as the poor bastard in the picture giving the thumbs up.

sure if your at the heffener playboy mansion, Wink Wink.

Yes because torture worked so well for the Nazis, the Soviets, the South American dictators. Thats why all those regimes are still around to this very day...

Thats some proud company some of you are willing to join here in the name of "national security".

Hell why don't we start using torture in domestic cases as well?
Millions of American citizens lives are destroyed by Drugs. Isn't it worth the torture of some lower class citizens if we could save all those people by preventing the next drug shipment from coming in? Guns are a problem too maybe we should start torturing people to find out the next time a gunstores going to get robbed. Every year lots of people die because of the stolen firearms flooding the streets isn't it worth the lives of a few suspected scumbags to save those people? Millions of people suffer due to fraudulent business practices maybe we should torture business executives to find out the next time one of them is planning to raid the employee pension fund? Isn't worth the lives of a few greedy business execs if we can stem the tide of white collar corruption? I mean whats a few lives in the face of the greater good right?

Heck why even bother having due process in the first place? The police should be able to just round people up at random and shoot them odds are they'll be killing criminals and if a few innocents die so what. Compared to public security whats a few lives?

Nice job generalizing the people who don't give a clear cut No

I think the majority of people would say that as stated above physical torture is wrong but the psychological interrogation being used in the war on terror is not torture. Sleep deprivation is the least we could do to unearth information regarding where the next civilian population to be attacked is.

Just a comment to all the people who have said `hell yeah its fine`

if you accept that the `intel` or army or whoever can use torture , then you have to accept the video`s of americans being beheaded - its the same thing.

simple as that - iraqi`s have been tortured to death , by being eaten by animals for example , so having a head cut off is the same thing


think about it - if its ok to do it to them, then they will do it to you.

oh wait , both sides allready do.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Let's see, Manhattan is going to be dealt a devastating blow, tens of thousands of people will die, we have a terrorist in custody that knows the details but he doesn't want to talk.

And some of you say that torture for any reason is not acceptable.

What if we strap your family, your loved ones, downtown, and then let you make the decision? Bet your tune might sound a bit different.

Me? You don't have to take my blood family there, my countrymen are there and that is good enough for me. I'd start at the creature's toe joints and work up until he had total recollection of all the information I required.

Comment: Pain makes people forget, it also releases endorphins, so why torture people, other than as an egomaniacal self rationalization? Since the so called "terrorists," are trained in advance, it serves no other purposes than to make "authorities," appear themselves to be tough and that they are actually solving problems. If you want the truth from a "terrorist," who could be your son, your daughter or someone close to you, given the flow and direction of such tyrannies that have occurred historically, you give the person truth serum or some other such advanced methodology that does not create agony.

Once people lose their humanity with such propaganda placement scenarios as in the TV series 24, or in the case of inquisitions, it takes far too long a time to regain any notion of social progress. Continue torturing and rationalizing, and you will see a social structure within indefinite chaos for decades or even centuries. Use scientific method, and you will get the data you want and reject tyranny.

I am sad that people have been brainwashed and are so stupid they agree with this agenda driven nonsense, that is being done "because they can," referring to some elite faction that prints money for itself that it lends to you, then now dictates what human beings are mere cattle to be done with as property. I am even more sad people who call themselves by large titles, consider themselves better than other human beings. Such things used to be earned with an authentic education, not the idiocy that has taken place during the past century.

There are far more proofs scientifically, socially, and culturally in an advanced format, that evaluate torture as insanity. Try some truth serum, because you will not get the answers to prevent the scenario of some large destruction, through such means as painful demonstrations. You know in your heart of hearts that torture is evil, and not to be tolerated. I suggest that the United States itself is an eternal vendetta against torture.

[edit on 21-12-2005 by SkipShipman]

Originally posted by boogyman
Yes because torture worked so well for the Nazis, the Soviets, the South American dictators. Thats why all those regimes are still around to this very day...
Thats some proud company some of you are willing to join here in the name of "national security".
Hell why don't we start using torture in domestic cases as well?

Originally posted by harlequin
Just a comment to all the people who have said `hell yeah its fine`
if you accept that the `intel` or army or whoever can use torture , then you have to accept the video`s of americans being beheaded - its the same thing.
simple as that - iraqi`s have been tortured to death , by being eaten by animals for example , so having a head cut off is the same thing

Pure rhetoric - the US is not a dictatorship. Assumption is just the first three letters. It's interesting to note the mindset of individuals who cannot digress between torture and war. Torture is a choice to damage an individual whether for fun or for a purpose. I believe God will have the final say on the matter. Someone who dies in war is not torture.





[edit on 21-12-2005 by vincere7]

Originally posted by vincere7
Pure rhetoric - the US is not a dictatorship.

where have you been recently?

Assumption is just the first three letters. It's interesting to note the mindset of individuals who cannot digress between torture and war.

no , teh moment you take teh gloves off , then everyone will do it - same with WMD`s , as soon as they are used then gas bombs will fly to *solve* all teh problems.

Torture is a choice to damage an individual whether for fun or for a purpose. I believe God will have the final say on the matter. Someone who dies in war is not torture.

Yes God will have the final say - but which God - since in Iraq they arn`t christians.

Originally posted by Harlequin
where have you been recently?

running my AMERICAN business and enjoying the fruit of such, how bout you?

Originally posted by Harlequin
no , teh moment you take teh gloves off , then everyone will do it - same with WMD`s , as soon as they are used then gas bombs will fly to *solve* all teh problems.

you need to be a student of history and reality before making such bold statements

Originally posted by Harlequin
Yes God will have the final say - but which God - since in Iraq they arn`t christians.

Muslim's worship the God of Abraham as do Christians. Knowledge is power.

rofl you do make me laugh; the reason that no one has used wmd`s yet is they are waiting for one of teh `big boys` to make teh first move - and as soon as they do , then all hell will fly - i can see pakistan surprising india by dropping a few doezen all over the country AFTER israel drop a few on iran.

and thats following both history and recent events.

Originally posted by Harlequin
and thats following both history and recent events.

No just shows you know nothing about nuclear intervention and preemptive strike,

Originally posted by Harlequin
Just a comment to all the people who have said `hell yeah its fine`

if you accept that the `intel` or army or whoever can use torture , then you have to accept the video`s of americans being beheaded - its the same thing.

simple as that - iraqi`s have been tortured to death , by being eaten by animals for example , so having a head cut off is the same thing


think about it - if its ok to do it to them, then they will do it to you.

oh wait , both sides allready do.

What a crock of #...

Last time I checked, keeping someone awake for a few days doesn't kill them, nor cause them any physical pain. I know. I am a diagnosed insomniac.

Sawing someones head off does cause physical pain and death.

Frankly, if someone plants a nuke in their city, I could care less about how much sleep they get, or how many volts of electricity are sent through their body for that matter, as long as they aren't killed.

Originally posted by American Mad Man


What a crock of #...

and that is exactly the reply is expected from you - its ok as long as they do it to them , but nooooo they cannot do it to us , as thats just wrong.


the exuberance of your hypocrisy is most delapidating

Originally posted by Harlequin
and that is exactly the reply is expected from you - its ok as long as they do it to them , but nooooo they cannot do it to us , as thats just wrong.

If you can't see that there is a difference between depriving someone of SLEEP and depriving someone of their HEAD (and thus inflicting a little thing the world knows as death), you are more hopeless then I thought.

I won't even get into an argument over the differences in reason that both parties take the action they take, as they contain things like logic, reason, and common sense - all of which are unexcepted practices by you. So please continue to believe that sawing off someones head is equal to depriving them of sleep if it makes you feel better...The rest of the world sees a difference.

`the rest of the world see`s a difference`


yes , they also see the pictures of animals eating bound and gagged iraqi`s , and the iraqi`s tied up and being electrocuted for entertainment , of the rapes `for fun`