How long is it going to be before people start voting for the BNP party?

st3ve_o - sminkey explained all that above. Our country wouldn't be effective if employers were forced to only employ english employees.

Voting for the BNP won't get you a job, improving your CV and gaining some skills might.

Originally posted by st3ve_o
all i'm saying why should these immigrants non british (not born here) have more rights than the 'true' brits in finding employment?

and would these 'non' brits do their duty for this country (if need be)? afterall they are entitled to all the same benefits as british people, again i say the majority wouldn't.

So what do you suggest steve_o? make them second class citizens with less human rights than the white locals? That is blatantly racist!

You can't take away peoples right to free employment because they are not native. The fact is they are getting jobs over english people because they work harder and better and/or sell their labour at a lower price. Thats the capitalist way. Maybe if you want this to change you should vote communist or socialist, not fascist.

steve-o.........i would love to ask you a question, its not often i get a chance to ask a potential BNP supporter a question, so here goes.
I am a white british muslim.My children (all born in this country also) are half white, half pakistani.
Part of the BNP's manifesto is repatriation.....so my question is this:
Do you honestly not care that under the BNP, me and children would be seen as almost non-whites, and perhaps be forced to "repatriate" into some country where we have never been?
Does it honestly not bother you that under the BNP, we would suffer discrimination just for being muslim/mixed race?
I wonder sometimes at the mind set of people like you. You might like to spout off about immigration and all that, but did you ever stop to think what it would be like for people like me and my children SHOULD the BNP ever get in?
Let me tell you something about my children. They are all doing really well at school, and i expect them to get decent degrees and good jobs and contribute fully to the British society. Do you not have any emotion that these kids may be kicked out of their own country?

Just wondering

Originally posted by gfad

So what do you suggest steve_o? make them second class citizens with less human rights than the white locals? That is blatantly racist!

You can't take away peoples right to free employment because they are not native. The fact is they are getting jobs over english people because they work harder and better and/or sell their labour at a lower price. Thats the capitalist way. Maybe if you want this to change you should vote communist or socialist, not fascist.

again why do you keep bring 'race' into the issue

a black/white/chinese british born as the same rights as a white british born (they are just as much british as each other). what i don't like is our govenment importing workers from otherh countrys when theres citizens of this country are struggling to find employment.

and don't give me all that 'working harder' or 'labour at a lower price' theres a thing over here called ^minimum wage^ this still applys to immigration workers working in britain, they do not get payed less at all.

Originally posted by geek101
steve-o.........i would love to ask you a question, its not often i get a chance to ask a potential BNP supporter a question, so here goes.
I am a white british muslim.My children (all born in this country also) are half white, half pakistani.
Part of the BNP's manifesto is repatriation.....so my question is this:
Do you honestly not care that under the BNP, me and children would be seen as almost non-whites, and perhaps be forced to "repatriate" into some country where we have never been?
Does it honestly not bother you that under the BNP, we would suffer discrimination just for being muslim/mixed race?
I wonder sometimes at the mind set of people like you. You might like to spout off about immigration and all that, but did you ever stop to think what it would be like for people like me and my children SHOULD the BNP ever get in?
Let me tell you something about my children. They are all doing really well at school, and i expect them to get decent degrees and good jobs and contribute fully to the British society. Do you not have any emotion that these kids may be kicked out of their own country?

Just wondering

hi mate, i'm all for a multicultural britain - but the thing is, things are not a rosey and jolly as tony blair would like us to think in this country.

there is a divide with cultures here (mainly between white and muslim majoritys), i live in a massive multicultral place in britain with a high population of muslims (rotherham), so i know how things work....what my vision is of this country, is have a set 'british way of life' - to me reading your post above (your children go to british schools/mix with british society/culture) niceone thats how things should be.

but i remember this poll from a few months ago conducted by skynews and the question was asking 1000 BRITISH BORN muslims "do you class yourself as british?"

amazingly only 18% of british born muslims classed themselfs british (unconfirmed figures) but i will try to find the poll, ive also been working at a company recently and this firm set a high number of muslims and indians on, you try talk to them and basicly they want nothing to do with you...thats why i think we should have a set 'british way of life' because to me theres a HUGE divide in this country.

For decent people to vote BNP?

Years and years.

For morons?

Tomorrow.

Originally posted by st3ve_o
again why do you keep bring 'race' into the issue

a black/white/chinese british born as the same rights as a white british born (they are just as much british as each other). what i don't like is our govenment importing workers from otherh countrys when theres citizens of this country are struggling to find employment.

and don't give me all that 'working harder' or 'labour at a lower price' theres a thing over here called ^minimum wage^ this still applys to immigration workers working in britain, they do not get payed less at all.

Why do I bring race into it? I dont know what you think the BNP is but it is a selfadmittedly RACIST party. By saying you are willing to vote BNP you are labelling yourself a racist and I want to know why.

Our government aren't importing workers. They are giving them the right to be free and an opportunity to live in our country, to have a better way of life.

And if you dont think that immigrant workers work harder or sell their labour at a lower price then WHY do they get employed over british people in some cases (in your mind, all cases). They must be doing something better than native british workers or what you are suggesting happens wouldnt happen at all!

Originally posted by st3ve_o
what i don't like is our govenment importing workers from otherh countrys when theres citizens of this country are struggling to find employment.

- "The Government" is doing no such thing.

We are part of a free European collective where the free flow of labour is a part of that freedom.
Overall it benefits us all to have free movement of labour.

The alternative is to reverse all those gains and institute some kind of decaying and inefficient - not to say unworkable -system of privileges and permissions.
It's just a soft 'easy life' fantasy for those who aren't thinking too much about the issue.
No thanks.

The migrant workers go where the work is, where the employers want them and when and for as long their circumstances allow.

"The Government" isn't "importing" anyone; it is the host of private British businesses that are employing these people (often at minimum wage when indigenous workers expect much more than that).
Such are the economic realities of a capitalist economy.

It's also worth remembering that this does go in cycles, right now it is new entrant Eastern Europeans coming here, 10 - 20yrs ago it was British workers going off to Germany.

How many people can honestly say they don't know British people who have worked for significant periods abroad, hmmmmm?

The current EU is also partly what the British wanted it to be. We never bought into any of this 'united Europe' stuff, which the French championed. Instead we saw some great advantages in a free trade area, and indeed we are enjoying those advantages today. The French and Germans still try to do things to 'unite' Europe (you may have heard that they have a joint military division), but not many other European nations are up for it (the UK included - we've always been sceptical about Europe and its abilities. Hence why we've remained close to the United States).

And, hell, the immigrants who come to the UK because of higher wages are no different than British people who go to live in Australia or the United States - many of whom go for better rates of pay in their chosen professions. A friend of my father went to live out in Australia for that very reason - he believed he could have a better life out there with a better paid job et al. It's sort of double standards when we moan and complain about people coming here when we do it ourselves - how do you think the Aussies feel?

And yes, there are tensions between Muslim communities and others in the UK. But the way to solve that isn't to kick them out or persecute them - it's to talk to them, debate with them, show them that we'll listen but that so must they. The BNP would just make terrorist attacks more likely, and make Muslims feel more alienated and thus more likely to become extremists. Peaceful dialogue is the way forward, not ill-informed hate and vitriol.

Informed, sensible, peaceful debate and discussion is what democracy is all about. I assure you that you'll be much worse off with a BNP government than you will one of the three main parties in every respect.

@ gfad and sminkeypinkey (i'll try to answer both of your points in one post),

if you read above i said all parties are a joke, i don't suspect the BNP will ever get into power, but there’s a lot of people talking about them due to the fact they are saying they will put an halt to something that is TRUELLY getting out of control in this country and that’s 'immigration'.

the labour party don't seem to have a clue how to put a limit on immigration and don't say it's not a problem in britain, as it's been widely discussed in parliament and in the british press, but we need a good procedure in place - (doctors/dentists) should be first priority if they want to earn a living in Britain (specialist workers we need), but importing workers to do 'labouring' jobs like factory work is shocking, when we have many middle-class BRITISH citizens unemployed and looking for work.

sminkeypinkey, you make a point about us being in the european collective...well why do we import indians to work over here then? :/ because the previous company where i worked, set around 30 indians on (half of those could hardly speak a word of english) and then they go back to india and take the money back what they earned over here, again why do this when there's many 'unemployed' britons?

as for brits working in other countrys, well thats an issue for other country’s to deal/debate with (i know the spanish are getting sick of us) but right now i'm more concerned about the problem in our country, we have far too many problems of our own to worry about other countrys aswell.

[edit on 27-11-2006 by st3ve_o]

STOP saying that we are "importing workers". It is a complete fallacy that you seem to have invented in your own head. Yes, immigrants are coming to this country for work and for a better quality of life, yet the government isnt asking or even forcing them to come. They come because of our system of social equality and the benefits it exhibits.

If you want immgration to stop you will have to give up the privileged life that you and everyone else in this country lives. Give up your free education and healthcare. Give up your state pension and national insurance. These are the things that make Britain a great place for us to live and similarly they are the things which make tis country attractive to immigrants.

You still havn't answered my post asking why do these immigrant get jobs over native british workers if they aren't better at the job and they dont sell their labour for cheaper.

yes we are importing workers!

and i will answer your question, ive worked with these people and what happens is they get a work permit into the country for say (1/2/3 months), what happens then is they work as much as they can (most have 2 jobs).

so what they do is work 8/4 at one company and 5/11 at another, they are not good workers because most often or not these people are always falling to sleep/day dreaming (or not turning in) due to the fact they are working too much, actaully most people who get sacked are the people on work permits.

therefore i do not understand your point or what gives you that idea about how these people are 'better' workers, but yes they have more stoppages taken out of their wages than us and thats probably why our govenment 'imports' these workers as it's helping the economy.

i have no problems with that, but there should a 'limit' so it gives actual unemployed british people the opportunity to find employment too, because (as said) most often or not 'THESE PEOPLE COME FIRST'.

[edit on 27-11-2006 by st3ve_o]

Originally posted by Ste2652
The current EU is also partly what the British wanted it to be. We never bought into any of this 'united Europe' stuff, which the French championed.

- This is completely wrong (although it is entirely in keeping with the fairly recent - 20 or so yr old - gross distortion of actual British history and the truth of the events leading up to the creation of the EEC/EU).

It was Churchill (ex tory PM) actually that spoke of a 'United States of Europe'.

The French and Germans still try to do things to 'unite' Europe (you may have heard that they have a joint military division), but not many other European nations are up for it

- I think you'll find that whilst there is a small difference of emphasis or degree almost all of the rest of EU Europe is fully behind the ideals of an ever closer cooperating Europe.
So much so that people are begging to be let in, not the opposite.

The notion of a 'European superstate' is a fake argument that has never been possible and (in the light of the French and Dutch rejection of the so-called 'constitution') could never be possible.

Hence why we've remained close to the United States.

- No.
Britain & the USA have followed a (loosely) similar economic model since the late 1970's/early 1980's.
Playing one off against the other in furtherance of our own interests has long been a British tradition (going back through the whole of the 20th century).

It's sort of double standards when we moan and complain about people coming here when we do it ourselves

- I'm not moaning.
How could I moan about this?
I'm British and we Brits are one of the biggest bunches of immigrants the world has ever seen
(except 'we' usually did travel the globe and really did end up fighting, killing and completely taking places over).

Originally posted by st3ve_o
there’s a lot of people talking about them due to the fact they are saying they will put an halt to something that is TRUELLY getting out of control in this country and that’s 'immigration'.

- If you look at the history of our politics there's always been a rump of opinion that claims 'immigration is out of control'.

The truth is every British Gov since 1959 has imposed restrictions upon further restrictions.

the labour party don't seem to have a clue how to put a limit on immigration

- Well that kind of flies in the face of the fact that this lot are about to add even more immigration restrictions on top of those that they have already put in place to date.

In fact by imposing restrictions upon the movement of Bulgarians and Romanians when they join the EU next year they are going further than has been done before by any British Gov of any colour.

The idea that they 'have all done nothing' or 'have no control' is simply not true.

don't say it's not a problem in britain, as it's been widely discussed in parliament and in the british press

- That doesn't mean anything especially.

Elements of the British press have been moaning about immigration since the 1950's.

Inevitably they almost never talk about any positive benefits and concentrate almost exclusively on the (claimed) negative(s).

(doctors/dentists) should be first priority if they want to earn a living in Britain (specialist workers we need)

- I think you'll find that is largely what has been going on.

but importing workers to do 'labouring' jobs like factory work is shocking

- Who's doing this "importing" then?

The truth is that we have free movement of labour, the Gov is not "importing" anybody.

EU citizens don't need Gov approval to come here and work (excepting those from Romania and Bulgaria next year).

when we have many middle-class BRITISH citizens unemployed and looking for work.

-
The British middle classes to fill the labouring and menial jobs gaps now are they?!
Most amusing.

You'll perhaps explain where they have been to date then
because the whole reason why British employers are happy to take on these guys is because 'our people', generally speaking, will not do those jobs for the rates offered.

sminkeypinkey, you make a point about us being in the european collective...well why do we import indians to work over here then?

- Where is this "importing" fantasy coming from?

If you think about this you'd quickly realise that Britain is in a special position (in addition to the EU situation) thanks to the hang-overs of Empire and the effects of now our 'Commonwealth'.

People from the commonwealth have rights to be British citizens and come here.......and considering so many fought and died for this country in WW1 & 2 (and some still do, serving in the British armed forces) it is hardly asking too much IMO.

The real truth about the whole immigration debate (recognising the manner in which it is invariably conducted in the UK) is that it is a subject few will debate rationally.

It is almost always exploited by either those seeking to use people's worst instincts for their own narrow political gain or in support of those seeking to use..... etc etc.
(The siren-song is always the same infantile garbage,if it wasn't for 'them' you'd be living high on the hog and life would be a comfortable breeze.)

This is revealed almost without fail and every time because the 'debate' from those types almost always concentrates only on the negative aspects and is utterly loath to consider the positive.

when i say 'import' if anything comes from another country you are 'importing' it in.

'importing' cigs/booze from abroad.
'importing' a game from japan.
'importing' overseas workers.

and mate you say about the benefits of all this, what about negatives?...i think the negativity of allowing overseas workers to come into out country far outshines the positives, which the only positive is the 'economy'.

racial divide between people, lack of jobs for british citizens (list goes on)...

as said i'm not racist, a black born/muslim born are just as much british as white IMO, but the only reason britian is a multicultural society is because of this problem…after the war when the first of the muslim and indian population came to britain (to help re-build) a labour MP said "if we open our borders we are opening the gates to hell!"

now its not that bad, but an article in the daily mirror 3 weeks ago, said 2,000 people (per day) came to live in britain in 2005, with 1000 'british' people leaving the UK is on the verge of becoming like the US ^a complete immigration country^ I feel we are being slowly chucked out like the cowboys and indians.

the only way to solve racial differences in the UK is have a set 'british way of life' - if a christian child saw somebody like this walking down the street:-

www.itn.co.uk...

they'd be scared to death, we have no understanding of each other, therefore we don't mix.

[edit on 27-11-2006 by st3ve_o]

Originally posted by st3ve_o
yeah but i was born here and my family was born here before that and before that and before that....

yet this subject is changing slightly

i'm not racist - that's like saying all black people are not welcome in any country and that they should all go back to africa

all i'm saying why should these immigrants non british (not born here) have more rights than the 'true' brits in finding employment?

and would these 'non' brits do their duty for this country (if need be)? afterall they are entitled to all the same benefits as british people, again i say the majority wouldn't.

[edit on 26-11-2006 by st3ve_o]

Well, I am Cornish. My family are through and through Cornish with some Irish thrown in a couple of centuries ago. We can trace our family back to the Norman days, in Cornwall. When will you pesky English get out of Cornwall? When will you stop buying up Cornish homes as weekend getaways so locals can't afford to live there? We were on these islands before the Romans, but you immigrant "English" turned up in droves looking for a better life... Even now, you deny the Cornish the right to self-governance, even though there never was an Act of Union with Cornwall despite it being viewed as a seperate entity from England, historically.

The point of my statement above is that immigration happens. It always happens. In the end, you can see it has made our country what it is today. Look at the history of the UK can claim it is nothing short of amazing, yet it was all done on the back of immigration...

It is also a common misconception we're being overun. Maybe if you live in a large Urban setting, it may seem that way. Just remember this:

92% OF THE TOTAL POPULATION OF THE UK IS NATIVE WHITE

There is no risk of being overun. The only thing we need to get under control is wishy-washy Blairite politicians being more PC than a Lesbian Communist who works for Greenpeace. Once a modicum of common sense is restored to the public forum, I think you'll find all this nonsense is nothing more than that.

[edit on 27/11/06 by stumason]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- I'm not moaning.
How could I moan about this?
I'm British and we Brits are one of the biggest bunches of immigrants the world has ever seen
(except 'we' usually did travel the globe and really did end up fighting, killing and completely taking places over).

And that wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at st3ve_o

As for the EU stuff, well, I'll grant you the Churchill speech, but he was the Leader of the Opposition at the time (that particular speech was in 1946, I think - Attlee was the Prime Minister of the day). But you have to admit Britain was very sceptical in the beginning. Sure, the UK made some attempts to get involved in Europe again after the Second World War but the European Coal and Steel Community did not contain the UK (the British government rejected it). It wasn't until the 1960s that the UK became really interested when it became clear that it would be good for trading - and the Cold War was in full swing, so becoming closer to Europe wasn't a bad thing. And even then it took us until 1973 to join, but this was primarily due to the French vetoing the British application.

And as you say, it has been British policy for some time to skit between Europe and the United States (and still is to some degree, although arguably we have been closer to the US recently, especially post-9/11) - we couldn't become too involved with Europe for fear of alienating the US. This was one of the reasons the French vetoed the British application - they feared Britain would be a sort of trojan horse for American interests in the EU (you may recall that the French withdrew their forces from the NATO military command structure in late 1950s - they felt that NATO was too US dominated and were keen to stay out of the US sphere of influence).

However, I digress.

For the Europeans who come here, you'll find they integrate pretty well. There's no great segregated Polish community, whereas this is more applicable to Muslims. The facts you state (the 1500 in, 1000 out per day were the correct figures, I think) are in fact flawed. There was a clip on the BBC saying why this was so, and a BBC news story - I'll try to dig it up and post a link, and I apologise for the lack of a source.

news.bbc.co.uk... < That's quite an interesting site to look at.

IMO this is one of the best immigration debates we've had on this board for quite a while.

Credit to y'all.

Thank you guys.

You are still using the word import wrong. Yes cigs and booze from france and a game from japan are imported, they have been brought here by someone else, they havn't walked here of their own accord. Whereas no one is bringing in immigrants, they are coming here by themselves. By saying that the government are importing immigrants you sund as though you believe in some national conspiracy to eradicate native british people.

Im still not convinced about your answer to my wuestion either, you seem to be talking from personal experience. Why would a warehouse boss continue to employ polish workers if they just skipped work every day like you say? Why would a plumber take on a czech helper if hes just going to phone in sick all the time?

Your argument fails because of one major flaw. You talk about this sea of unemployed british workers but the fact that they exist shows that the immigrant workers must be doing something right, and as you pointed out there is a minimum wage so they must just be better at their jobs. If the immigrant workers were rubbish then warehouse bosses wouldn't employ them, they would pick someone from this sea of british unemployed. Your argument disproves itself.

I also found your point hilarious about middle class workers all being unemployed. I doubt that many middle class people would be happy to work rubbish hours in a warehouse. Most of these immigrants are doing jobs which most people think they are too good for.

mate, i'm not sure who sets them on the 'employer' or the 'government' but either way WE ARE importing workers into the country, now can we close this 'importing' issue?

yes i am talking from personal experience and i feel nothing beats ‘experience‘, who would you listen to about life in iraq a politician (saying everything is fine) or a solider (whos in the thick of the action)?

I’ve had no experience with polish workers, my previous company set a lot of indians on from india itself, ^why do they keep setting them on you ask?^ - ive just looked it up on the net (i won't tell you the company i worked for) but they have an agreement with an Indian firm that gives indians the opportunity to work at my previous company whilst studying in england.

well not all of them are lazy, some are actually hard workers but as said the majority who get sacked are the people on permits and you do get a lot of them not turning in/day dreaming and we've even had a few occasions were some have fallen to sleep.

you say employers wouldn't employ these people if they wasn't good workers, *above* i have stated a reason to back up my statements, i have had no experience with any others so i can't really comment, but i will say this - most company’s haveto employ a mixture of races/backgrounds due to a thing called 'equal opportunity’s' again niceone, we are all human (flesh and blood) but why bring them from overseas

you say i'm obsessed with the word 'import' but i feel your obsessed with the fact that you think 'overseas' workers are better workers than the british, i'll tell you why employers set them on though (it's all been said in the last few posts).

agreements with overseas agencies.
equal oppunitys
boosting the economy

^^
those are the positives

the negatives have all been said also and i feel it causes more of a problem to british society than the 'positives' - summary, it isn’t fair.

All this talk about 'importing' immigrants sounds dreadfully like the bile the BNP are spewing out at the moment.

BNP Website
The liberal-left commentators and hacks in the media have the audacity to call the BNP a “bunch of extremists” but there is nothing in our manifesto which comes close to the extreme action of importing millions of foreign workers over the past half century to radically change the complexion

Source: BNP Site

It appears that, aside from this perceived (and I use that word on purpose) image that immigration is taking British jobs, housing also has a role to play.

BBC News - Housing 'key to far-right rise'

Quite an interesting thought.

mod edit: just changing the quote tag to external
Quote Reference

[edit on 28-11-2006 by UK Wizard]