How long is it going to be before people start voting for the BNP party?

Originally posted by gfad
Your argument fails because of one major flaw. You talk about this sea of unemployed british workers but the fact that they exist shows that the immigrant workers must be doing something right, and as you pointed out there is a minimum wage so they must just be better at their jobs.If the immigrant workers were rubbish then warehouse bosses wouldn't employ them, they would pick someone from this sea of british unemployed.

Last year I left a job because all the workers spoke to each other in Czech, which left me feeling isolated. I think that a few immigrants could get their jobs because employees who were themselves immigrants prefer to employ immigrant workers. Many cultures in our country prefer to live together, in Coventry there are certain areas of the city that are almost completely inhabited by people from the same ethnic backgrounds. No-one who worked there was a harder worker than me, I like to earn my wages and cleaned the store when I wasn't busy, but the other workers told me not to because it wasn't needed (it was and that was the straw that broke my back).

Consequenlty, there are probably many good immigrant workers, but there are also not so good ones. It's absurd to suggest immigrant workers are better than british workers because it is a case of individuals. Furthermore, I think that the general population do probably follow stereotypes. Foriegn workers are generally seen to be making the most of the chances they are afforded in this country, which gives them a higher chance of being employed than a young british worker with a similar skill set.

Originally posted by st3vo_3
mate, i'm not sure who . sets them on the 'employer' or the 'government' but either way WE ARE importing workers into the country, now can we close this 'importing' issue?

GBP54.3 Billion Into UK Coffers From Migrant Workers
Monday November 27, 7:01 pm ET
New Research Shows That the UK Cannot Afford to Dispense With Inflow of Professional And Managerial Migrant Workers Migrants Create an Unprecedented 5% of UK GDP/GVA.
Source

This shows, beyond doubt, that people who come to work in this country have a positive effect to the economy. By improving the economy, this should create more jobs, and that will reduce our unemployment levels. Also, without immigrant labour our NHS and Army wouldn't be half as good as it is today. The imporvements to our economy are by far the biggest reason that we should keep immigrant workers and outweighs the negatives you've previously pointed out.

If you still think we are 'importing' foreign labour then please can you give us some links to show us that this is the case becuase your experience seems to suggest your company was headhunting foreign graduates rather than 'importing' people to do jobs that other people could do.I couldn't find any news stories about our country 'importing' foreign workers. Although I don't see the problem in them coming if they are helping our country out, as they are.



I was reminded of this thread today by a text printed in the free London Lite paper, it said that if we needed alot of immigrant workers then what are our taxes for the unemployed being spent on. Ultimately, this is a massive issue, having so many intricacies it could be likened to the arguments over climate change.

Currently I have sympathies with both sides of the arguments provided, yet I do not see how voting BNP would do anything other than take the country backwards rather than forwards. To lay out my hand, I think that we should get rid of 'countries' but I suppose thats probably best left for a different discussion.

you make some good points mate, but i think i've added as much as i can to this thread,

i know theres others who support my argument so would be great to hear views from those people - as so far it's been me against 5 but regardless the only real positive i keep hearing about is the economy, the negatives britain is Britain becoming more divided all the time due to the fact theres SOOOO many different cultures living and working here.

even america (country full of different cultures) have a set way of 'american life' -english speaking country and most people who migrate to america know that.

australia, to work/live over there you must be able to speak english and you must do a test on australian history and culture, thats how it should be....in britain we just say come over and do what you want (HAVE NO SET BRITISH WAY OF LIFE).

you said in your last job, there were czechs speaking in their own language, i can relate to that - the company i worked was all speaking arabic, and thats not right as most could speak english....i won't be working back at that company again because the divides their was unreal

. on one hand we had british muslims (could speak english) but didn't want anything to do with anyone.

. other side indians (credit to some they did try to make the effort) but again lots didn't want to mix with anyone and at times in the canteen they spoke in their own language and you could tell they were speaking you.

. then their were us - british christians.

so thats 3 divides, muslims and indians never liked each other muslims never spoke to us, nor did the indians - work shouldn't be like that, summary if you want to work/live in england you should speak ENGLISH.

anyway would be great to hear some more opinions backing up my side of the argument as i know there’s some who have probably looked at this thread

[edit on 29-11-2006 by st3ve_o]

Originally posted by st3ve_o
regardless the only real positive i keep hearing about is the economy

- Well ok, but the positive effects on the national economy is of huge concern and has a major impact on us all; doesn't it?

But in any case there's far more than that.

It's good for us.
It helps us understand the world we live in better because we meet and inter-act with more people from more of it.

It's good for our own culture....which is (and certainly ought to be) a highly dynamic and 'living' thing.
Our culture always has been one that is heavily influenced by regular influxes of immigration to the UK and many many centuries of contact with other cultures.
Us to them and they to us.

It's good for us personally to meet peoples from around the world, learn a huge range of new things and expand our own personal horizons.

An open (or, perhaps more accurately, a more open) world is far more preferable than a closed - or more closed - world.
That way lies a more ignorant and dangerous world.

the negatives britain is Britain becoming more divided all the time due to the fact theres SOOOO many different cultures living and working here.

- Actually you say you see so much difference but so what?
That doesn't actually mean 'division' anyway.
We're a mature nation full of different people, why should a little extra difference be a problem in itself?

Because, despite the periodic and few instances of problems,
(and I think they are usually over-stated in the narrow political interests of those seeking to exploit the issue)
I actually see a country largely at ease with it's variation and growing more and more so.

I see more and more mixed marriages; more and more people travelling and more and more people who really and genuinely do not have any 'truck' with the racist element and to cap it all we have some of the world's most cosmopolitan cities on the globe.

It's true that that does frighten some people
(so much so that they prefer to believe in a fake past where it is pretended that "London never was......." blah blah blah)
but nevertheless the truth is that our culture has a rich and diverse past......you'll find credible written records of Muslims in the UK back in medieval times.

You're seeing nothing other than the choice to know or experience more than you otherwise would, nothing is being taken from you by any of this.

......and anyway if you really do want to hold to this mentality and be frightened of these notions of 'cultural imperialism' then why not stop looking at the small minority of black or Muslim people here and/or inventing 'fears' about what you imagine 'they' might do some time in the future and open your eyes to what 'American culture' is doing here now.

If your concern really is worrying about what is changing 'our ways' and swamping 'our culture', right now, then look west, not east.
Cos the real changes being seen in the most British homes across the UK is coming from the USA not from a small minority who's roots are from the other direction.

But it seems to me fair to say that lately a ridiculous fake version of 'British culture' has taken root in some of our tabloids.
This pretends that 'we', as an island, have had little to do with anywhere or anybody else in previous centuries.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

European culture is heavily linked to British culture as indeed are cultures from several places around the globe (in particular the Middle East and Africa) and they (and we) have been 'linked' for centuries.

you said in your last job, there were czechs speaking in their own language, i can relate to that - the company i worked was all speaking arabic, and thats not right as most could speak english....i won't be working back at that company again because the divides their was unreal

- Have you ever wondered how it might be to be the only one (or one of a small handful) when things are the other way around.....out in the world and not just at work?

How about if you experienced that discomfort in all of your life here......cos you know your discomfort was just that, your own feeling, add in some abuse or nasty behaviour and you know it gets much much worse from some.

There are lots of times when you might feel 'uncomfortable' in all sorts of scenarios; it doesn't take foreign people.

Being the new kid at work surrounded by a group unfriendly uncommunicative adult (English) men who already know each other well might be another far more frequent scenario one might encounter.

This really doesn't sound like such a big deal to me, such is life.
Sorry.

on one hand we had british muslims (could speak english) but didn't want anything to do with anyone.

- I've worked in lots of places where certain people didn't speak to others; once at one place we even had a little gang of evangelical ultras who lived the 'keep ye separate' rule.
So what?
The rest of us just got on with it.
No real need for special dramas.

I've also worked in places where I was good friends with Muslim people, invited to their homes and celebrated their festivities with them (and a Sikh couple).
No fear no threat just people who appreciated each others' differences and liked each other getting along.
(cos this is the kicker for all intolerant racists......it's the differences between us that make us interesting to each other, they'll never defeat that one)

The issue is surely one of being able to overcome these artificial barriers or not.

'They' have a minority of their zealots who cannot or refuse to see past the barriers they erect just as 'we' have people who cannot or refuse to see past the division they insist they see there.

IMO it's really just so unnecessary, a great pity and such a pointless and potentially dangerous waste of time.

summary if you want to work/live in england you should speak ENGLISH.

- I don't see why we need to be so rigid about this.

I've met people all over the world who couldn't speak English, so what?
I have no-one else's language except appalling French and a couple of German wards.

In England the one thing you can be sure of is that most do speak English....... and the small handful who can't?
So what?
It doesn't mean the sky is falling in.

Relax.

The most fundamental fact in all of this is that we have far more in common with our fellow man, who ever they might be or where ever they might come from, than divides us.

Being aware of this and knowing it to be true is precisely what the loony dingbat element (on whatever side) can't abide.

Whether they be ultra left-wingers or ultra right-wingers, Evangelical fundamentalists or Muslim fundamentalists their message is basically the same; be afraid, know your place and stay in small easily controlled homogeneous groups.

I say to hell with that.



[edit on 29-11-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

Ok lets get this economy issue out of the way, how much is it boosting our economy millions or billions? (billions very doubtful).

But is millions (even billions) worth us losing our identity? Is it worth brits being unemployed? Is it worth racial divide? (and it is happening) everything from national debates about the veil, we know nothing about each other.

personally id rather just do without say 5/10 joint strike fighers less, that should cover the £millions what it's doing for the economy

You say it’s good because we meet people from all walks of life and backgrounds, don’t we do that already? We already have a number of british borns muslims/Asians/eastern Europeans why do we need to bring a foreigner in britain (a job that a british person could have) just to meet ‘new’ cultures, if I wanted to talk to a Jamaican id go to Jamaica (simple as).

You mention american culture, I agree with you there - just do a search on my posts and see my views about that - I’m 24 now and 10 years ago when I was at school (good I’m sounding like my dad now) - we never had people saying ‘you suck’ or ass instead of arse or ‘dork’ or ‘jerk’ - on faceparty if you look at ‘british’ profiles they all use these words , so yeah totally agree with you there.

But back to this point, I would never expect germany to lose it’s culture, I would never expect Russia to lose its culture and I would never expect china to lose its culture, yet ‘slowly’ I see our culture leaving us - silly things like drinking tea/Yorkshire puds for Sunday dinners (things that make us british) could all be gone in 100 years, why? - different cultures coming in - mixed marrages as you say (no problem with that though), You might feel I’m jumping the gun a bit with that , but I don’t think I am because I can see it happening all around us.

*off subject - but another point* I’m probably going to sound racist with this point now (I’m not) but okay Olympics 2012 is happening in London right?, well theres been huge complaints by muslims in the area, so to keep them happy the lottery-funds are building a multi-million pound mosque right next to the olympic stadium (can you see pakkistan building a church in pakkistan for us Christians)? - I certainly can’t.

Summary - I don’t know but I feel ‘whites’ are paying for our ‘past’ we are scared to put our foot down because different ethnic groups use one word against us ‘racism’ anything from:- (crime/employment/socialising/LIFE IN GENERAL).

I was thinking about this today actually (and this thread is a good place to post it in), I was watching mtv earlier and was watching these american rappers (not sure who it was) anyway all the way through it was a case of ’black this’ proud to be black (the n word) and I thought to myself ’hmmm’ what if I made a video and I said ’I’m proud to be white’ etc? racism would be brought into the acquision, another example is muslims - in the month of ramadam employers give them time off (leave early) so they can go to the mosque, yet at Christmas (99% are muslim taxi-drivers in rotherham) take advantage of a christain holiday (christmas) and wack the fair up double time to drive all the drunks home

As said I’m not racist, but those things made me wonder about this, like maybe britain are being made to pay for our past? and are we scared to put our foot down ^BECAUSE OF OUR PAST^ (immgration and more so 'immgration' of our past colonies comes in that issue)…this is another topic though, but I feel ive covered your other points above

[edit on 29-11-2006 by st3ve_o]

Personally I would rather live in a medieval hovel surrounded by my fellow countrymen than live in the multicultural hellhole that my country has become. I can walk the length of the high street in my home town and not hear a single bloody conversation in English. This state of affairs has been forced upon the indigenous population without any mandate and I believe people are starting to wise up and realise that the white race and traditional way of life in England is rapidly disappearing. The only people who seem to be in favour of this trend are business people with an interest in cheap desperate labour and the Westminster chattering classes who are all largely wealthy who don't have to put up with all the violence, crime and alien attitudes/cultures replacing our native ways of life and values. I will most certainly be voting for the BNP if given the opportunity at the next general election.

Originally posted by st3ve_o
Ok lets get this economy issue out of the way, how much is it boosting our economy millions or billions? (billions very doubtful).

- It's billions.

Didn't you see the report?

GBP £54.3 Billion Into UK Coffers From Migrant Workers
Monday November 27, 7:01 pm ET
New Research Shows That the UK Cannot Afford to Dispense With Inflow of Professional And Managerial Migrant Workers Migrants Create an Unprecedented 5% of UK GDP/GVA.
Source

But is millions (even billions) worth us losing our identity?

- What has anyone actually forced on you?
What is it that you think that have you personally "lost"?
This is an important point right here, what has anyone made you actually lose?

Cos life is all about change, that's perfectly normal but you're talking like someone (foreign) went and took something from you against your will......what?

Is it worth brits being unemployed?

- There's always certain degree of unemployment. It's an economic fact of life.
Our rate is now historically low; Thatcher & Major had it at around 10% of the available workforce during their recessions it's now around 5%.
Despite the 'problem' you say you see see with current immigration.

Half.

Unemployment fell from a peak of 3 million in 1993 (just under 11 per cent) to 1.5 million (around 5 per cent) in 2001. Since then there has been a further and more gradual decline, although unemployment rose slightly in the three months to September 2005 when the unemployment rate was 4.7 per cent.

British unemployment data

You are trying to connect one thing with another but it isn't that simple and it just doesn't follow.

We all benefit from immigration & we all would suffer without it.

Immigration has boosted Britain's economy, massively.
Removing the immigrants (even if it was possible) would result in less economic activity & this would spread out to effect the wider economy causing large growth in unemployment and probably a move back into recession.

A loss of 5% of GDP would be a massive catastrophe for the British economy.

Is it worth racial divide? (and it is happening) everything from national debates about the veil

- I hear debate, I hear POVs being discussed & I even see small outbreaks of trouble once in a while but to claim that means everything is on the verge of something awful is just wrong.

If by racial divide you mean difference then so what of it?
There's nothing wrong in difference, nothing wrong in a different POV or some disagreement either.

It's not a perfect world but we do pretty well, considering.

we know nothing about each other.

- Speak for yourself.

personally id rather just do without (say 5/10) joint strike fighers less, that should cover the millions what it's doing for the economy

- Well then you'd be plain wrong.
The economic effects are on-going (you might like to look up a few economic effects the multiplier and the accelerator and consider that if you reverse course then these have decelerator and divisive reverse effects too).

The overall effects are not at all like a matter of a simple saving in one year on a large military purchase (which even then comes nowhere remotely near the £53 billions mentioned).

why do we need to bring a foreigner in britain (a job that a british person could have) just to meet ‘new’ cultures

- But I never said it was 'just' a matter of meeting new cultures, I said it was that too.
.....& ultimately a more open and free world is a better world for us all.

I would never expect germany to lose it’s culture

- .....& yet the funny thing here is that since the end of WW2 Germany has taken more immigrants (& guest workers) than the rest of the EEC/EU Europe.

Germany has consistently received more refugees than other EU countries – more than 60% of all those who applied for asylum in western Europe in 1992. Austria, Holland, Sweden and Switzerland have, at times during the last decade, received high numbers of refugees per head of their populations, while some of the larger states, especially France, Italy and Spain, have received relatively fewer.
Britain is in the middle of the field.
It had 17,000 applications in 1989 and 71,000 a decade on – more than Germany. The largest annual tally was 73,000 in 1991, under a Conservative government.

www.oecdobserver.org...

In fact until the mid 1990's the UK was pretty low down the list for taking in people; it is now falling fast.

Claims for asylum in the UK fell 7% in the three months through September to their lowest since 1993, the government said.
Applications for asylum dropped to 5,850 from 6,320 in the same period a year earlier, the Home Office said yesterday in a statement.

www.bbj.hu...

yet ‘slowly’ I see our culture leaving us - silly things like drinking tea/Yorkshire puds for Sunday dinners (things that make us british)

- Have you chosen to stop doing these things?
Cos I haven't & I don't see anyone making me or my family or anyone I know not do those things either.....& certainly not cos an immigrant 'made' us!

okay Olympics 2012 is happening in London right?, well theres been huge complaints by muslims in the area, so to keep them happy the lottery-funds are building a multi-million pound mosque right next to the olympic stadium

- What has this to do with anything?

......don't Muslim people pay taxes and pay for their lottery tickets too?

Why shouldn't they get consideration for some projects?

Out of the total lottery spending to date how much do you say has gone to Muslim projects & how much to the 'Christian' projects.

(can you see pakkistan building a church in pakkistan for us Christians)? - I certainly can’t.

- If you think Pakistan is comparable and the standard by which you wish to operate or be judged that's your look out.
I don't.

I feel ‘whites’ are paying for our ‘past’ we are scared to put our foot down because different ethnic groups use one word against us ‘racism’ anything from:- (crime/employment/socialising/LIFE IN GENERAL).

- I really don't know what you are talking about.

Personally speaking I want to live in a free country with equal rights for all & where differences are respected & not just tolerated but valued.

I was watching mtv earlier and was watching these american rappers (not sure who it was) anyway all the way through it was a case of ’black this’ proud to be black (the n word) and I thought to myself ’hmmm’ what if I made a video and I said ’I’m proud to be white’ etc? racism would be brought into the acquision

- The point isn't to say that you are not entitled to feel proud to be *whatever* , that would be ridiculous.
It is to say it is wrong to move on from that to discriminate against others.

The problem with many people in this debate is that they seem to want some kind of return to a privileged status because they think 'being British' entitles them;
what a grotesque pity that the host of privileges they already have over most in the world seem to pass them by so entirely.

The real truth at the heart of many of the complaints about a 'loss of culture' - though rarely admited - is really about feeling a loss of privilege.....even if it does just come down to little more than being made to feel bad (by even 'ones own' people) for using racist language & few agreeing with them when they claim that 'there are too many of them' etc etc.

Even the shifting target for this dislike & fear seems to show little more than obvious confusion; are people born here OK?
Is it brown people that is the 'problem'?
What if they act & dress just like 'us' (whatever that means) and their English is impeccable?

another example is muslims - in the month of ramadam employers give them time off (leave early) so they can go to the mosque, yet at Christmas (99% are muslim taxi-drivers in rotherham) take advantage of a christain holiday (christmas) and wack the fair up double time to drive all the drunks home

- ....& so what?
Lots of Muslims respect Ramadan & so it is perfectly legitimate that their religious views are therefore respected, where possible (but it is equally true that not all employers do this anyway).
The fact that x-mas isn't a Muslim holiday but it is for the wider society they live in means what, exactly?
Are you saying that they shouldn't work, or they shouldn't expect extra for all the drunk ferrying?
I just don't see what you are complaining about here.

As said I’m not racist, but those things made me wonder about this, like maybe britain are being made to pay for our past? and are we scared to put our foot down ^BECAUSE OF OUR PAST^

- I think you're looking for an angle that just isn't there.

The people I know aren't into prejudice or privilege, they just want to live their lives & be given a fair shake, same as everyone else & to be left alone to get on with them in safety and peace.
It's not about anybodies' past.

[edit on 30-11-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

I thought this relevant and that it might amuse -



[edit on 30-11-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

This thread is really interesting and it involves alot of different perspectives, I keep coming to write only to find it difficult to focus my thoughts into something constructive. Something I want to point out is that people often don't want to become the nationality of the country they move too. In Spain they have a problem with British expats who don't assimilate themselves to the Spanish way of life.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
.....& yet the funny thing here is that since the end of WW2 Germany has taken more immigrants (& guest workers) than the rest of the EEC/EU Europe.

You state this and then give us information relating to asylum. This is a 'tactic' imployed by the Home Office. Anyway, here's what I could find on immigration:

According to official UK government estimates, approximately 1,500 migrants arrived to live in the UK every day during 2005. The same figures suggest that 185,000 more people immigrated into the UK than emigrated to another country, yielding a net population gain of 500 per day.
Source

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I thought this relevant and that it might amuse -

I don't get it...

Originally posted by byhiniur
Something I want to point out is that people often don't want to become the nationality of the country they move too. In Spain they have a problem with British expats who don't assimilate themselves to the Spanish way of life.

- .....and why should they?

Surely getting along and living decently and peaceably with others does not amount to 'becoming them'?

Why shouldn't ex-pat Asians (or whoever) retain as much of their identity when abroad and living in the UK?
It's exactly what people from the UK do when they're living abroad.

You state this and then give us information relating to asylum. This is a 'tactic' imployed by the Home Office.

- It wasn't a "tactic".

It was merely covering both angles, immigration and asylum, which I agree are often confused, deliberately, by some.
It was said because st3ve_o made a comment about Germans not changing like 'we' are supposed to be changing (due to our supposed high immigration levels).

The truth still stands that since the end of WW2 Germany is the EEC/EU country that has taken the most immigrants whether they be seeking asylum or completely legal immigrants coming to work.

I don't get it...

- It's a joke on the Daily Hitler, er I mean Mail and all that xenophobic anti-foreigners coming here hysteria.
Hmmmm, doesn't seem to want to work for me when I click on it.
Oh well.
Right click, copy the properties and paste on your address bar and press enter for the image.

[edit on 30-11-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Surely getting along and lving decently and peaceably with others does not amount to 'becoming them'? Why shouldn't ex-pat Asians (or whoever) retain as much of their identity when abroad and living in the UK? It's exactly what people from the UK do when they're living abroad.

Exactly, I couldn't agree more. When I'm in power () I intend to remove borders and create one country caled 'World'. But I suppose that should be discussed in another thread. This is at the heart of the issue, we can't expect people to move here, help us bolster our economy and then demand that they lose their identity in the process.

St3vo, I think it is absurd to make people become more 'English' because what is English is constantly changing.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
It wasn't a "tactic". It was merely covering both angles, immigration and asylum, which I agree are often confused, deliberately, by some.

I knew it could be construed to imply that I thought you had done it on purpose, that's why I put the word in quote marks. We all make honest mistakes .

I think that you made a very astute point before about a loss of priviledges creating social tensions. This links to most peoples fear of change, which is why I presented the Spain example.

So, St3vo, do you still think that you will vote for the BNP?

Originally posted by byhiniur
So, St3vo, do you still think that you will vote for the BNP?

defiantly, as said i don't expect them to get into power - but if my vote can make the government in power (whether it be labour or conservative) take notice and make them see people in britain are getting pee-ed off about immigration in this country the better

ive just found out today, that when my pregnant sister finished work last week these 2 lad muslims come upto her and said "white bitch" and threw a fake punch, i swear to god if they touched her i would have served time for it, but yeah that was last week and ive only found out about it today, all i can say is people defending all this is your don't live in a highly multi-cultural place.

see what the government tends to do is house them in certain areas so everything is altogether, that being (rotherham, bradford, birmingham, leeds, oldham, certain parts of london) but i suspect none will be housed around downing street

i'm just fed up with it.

oh and sminkey please don't mis-quote me, i said i wouldn't expect germany to lose it's culture nor would i expect any nation to lose it's culture for that matter (from jamaica to mexico to italy), culture is an important thing - yet if you get thousands of people coming in every day, you get to a point in a few generations where your country loses its 'culture'.

[edit on 30-11-2006 by st3ve_o]

Originally posted by st3ve_o
all i can say is people defending all this is your don't live in a highly multi-cultural place.

- Not true.

I personally have lived for many years in the E. London & S.W.Essex area.
Forest Gate, Ilford, Romford and Dagenham - everyone of them areas with a high number of people from various ethnic backgrounds.

I used to work in Aldgate and near to the Elephant and Castle; again areas of a very high ethnic mix.

I had very happy times there and never once had any kind of racist or unusual or serious trouble.

My dad lives not far from Halifax, again an area of high ethnic mix and very close to one you've previously mentioned.

In fact the really weird thing about racists is that they tend to be more pronounced in areas where there are few or no people of an ethnic backgriund.

Here in Northern Ireland there are few people of an ethnic background and the casual level of racism is quite shocking and rather sad.
But their major and more general thing here is still usually a crazy sectarian division.
The things people pick on to quarrel over.

what the government tends to do is house them in certain areas so everything is altogether, that being (rotherham, bradford, birmingham, leeds, oldham, certain parts of london)

- Actually it's usually got very little to do with 'the Gov' (although this Gov has made efforts and tried to encourage immigrants to spread around the country more than has been usual in the past......precisely to avoid the prospect of adding to existing 'ghettos').

The history (and it goes back centuries in places like London, Bristol, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester etc etc) is that immigrants always end up in the worst and poorest areas of towns or in the major cities
(because they usually are at the very bottom to begin with and are the poorest).

but i suspect none will be housed around downing street

- Just as none ever ended up next door to Buckingham Palace, or in Mayfair or in the flash parts of Cheshire or Leeds or Bristol or...... etc etc.

That's a silly and facile point to try and make.

oh and sminkey please don't mis-quote me, i said i wouldn't expect germany to lose it's culture

- I didn't.
You said you wouldn't expect Germany to lose it's culture yet you claimed we were because of our immigration levels (something you keep mentioning but failing to be specific about).

I just pointed out that post WW2 Germany has taken in many more immigrants (and asylum seekers) that 'we' have.......and yet your impression is still that they have not and wouldn't lose their cultural identity.

yet if you get thousands of people coming in every day, you get to a point in a few generations where your country loses its 'culture'.

- ....and like I said Germany has taken more people in than us and yet they are still German.
Just as 'we' are still British.

In any case culture is supposed to be an evolving thing, by our very nature as generations come and go it must be......and thank God it's not some inflexible dead suffocating thing.

.....and as I said if you want to point at where British culture has changed since WW2 it is overwhelmingly from US influences, not African or Asian.

You're still not doing anything but making vague claims that 'we' and you have 'lost' something or had something taken away.
I'd just love to hear exactly what and how this is the fault of immigrants coming here.

I'm sorry to hear about your sister but anecdotal 'evidence' like that is hardly conclusive of anything.

I've faced white guys threatening me before in my life - what is that meant to prove about all white people?
I've faced black guys threateneing me before in my life etc etc

.......am I really supposed to damn all black and white people cos I've encountered a few aggressive idiots in my time from each of those ethnic groups?
That's just an absurd conclusion to reach and I won't 'buy it', no, sorry.


[edit on 30-11-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

The trouble with reaching any intelligent conclusions with these type of debates is they almost instantly polarise at inception with the 'keep jonny foriegner out' and 'isn't all diversity fluffly bunny lovely'. The door is either barred or flung open without question.

It's all vey well to call on history to ease fears about immigration ( and I don't fundamentally disagree with the idea of immigration proving a good and neccessary thing for the UK) but much of the immigration that has occured in these islands was pretty much kept under control by the powers that be, those that weren't such as the anglo saxon and Norman incursions proved to be very destructive to the native populations. It's a fallacy to use history as a template rather than a guide. The concerns the BNP exploit include the perception that immigration is out of control and the (perfectly understandable) national self interest that this may have an impact on our existing culture.

In all fairness to steve o, while I don't agree with all he says, his basic argument is not racially motivated as he acknowledges the fact of ethnic and British being mutually inclusive, his stance is proving more open minded than many others on this thread. Criticising intolerance and racism by using the canard that the immigrants come over because th British are too lazy to do the work, smacks of equal bigotry to me.

I AM concerned by the level of support the BNP are gaining now, call me a chicken little if you like but based on meeting quiet a few who are now active supporters, they are not all thick, foaming at the mouth bigots but range across all classes, IQ's and even ethnicities, sure crisis point may still be a ways off but lets try and address the problem while it is still a trickle rather than a flood.

[edit on 1-12-2006 by ubermunche]

Originally posted by ubermunche
The door is either barred or flung open without question.

- I find that a wholly inaccurate representation of the facts of this debate.

It's true some want the door barred, bolted and shut but to say the alternative position is one where the doors are wide open is totally untrue.

It's pretty difficult to up sticks and try to move into the UK permanently as it is right now.

much of the immigration that has occured in these islands was pretty much kept under control by the powers that be

- Like I said, every Gov of ever colour since 1959 has been adding layer upon layer to British immigration law.

those that weren't such as the anglo saxon and Norman incursions proved to be very destructive to the native populations.

- I'm not sure what 'use' an actual ancient military invasion is to this debate?

It's a fallacy to use history as a template rather than a guide.

- I agree.

But I think it is wholly legitimate to point to the truth of the history to explode some of the myths some prefer to believe (or outright lies).

The concerns the BNP exploit include the perception that immigration is out of control

- Well that's partly true, but let's not kid ourselves some of it is a deliberate exploitation of some of 'our' worst instincts.

and the (perfectly understandable) national self interest that this may have an impact on our existing culture.

- Well as I keep saying, I keep hearing it claimed that we have lost something but no-one ever seems to want to be specific.

TBH the only things I can find in the record are instances where British culture has been added to (and often not by immigrants themselves but by returning British people - the 'explosion' in 'our' interest in Indian cuisine is a prime example of this in the Victorian era).

Criticising intolerance and racism by using the canard that the immigrants come over because th British are too lazy to do the work, smacks of equal bigotry to me.

- It's not about the "British are too lazy", that would be a "canard".

It is a documented fact that many British employers have long complained that the available British workers that there are have (a) either have not got the skills needed or (b) are unwilling to take jobs on on the terms offered.

That's quite different and it is, sadly, a hugely relevant fact in this.

but based on meeting quiet a few who are now active supporters, they are not all thick, foaming at the mouth bigots but range across all classes, IQ's and even ethnicities

- That really isn't going to be news to anyone that has looked at the history of British fascism or more lately the NF & BNP.
The image of the skinhead as their only support is woefully wide of the mark; sadly they attract all sorts - as with almost anything in life.
Even educated people who really ought to know better.

sure crisis point may still be a ways off but lets try and address the problem while it is still a trickle rather than a flood.

- What possible "flood"?

The UK has umteen immigration laws, it is not easy to come here.

It's true it is easier if you are from the EU (but equally that applies both ways).
It's also true that since the last EU enlargement many Poles and Czechs have come here......and what?
They contribute, they are here to work and many of them are here temporarily.
It's also frankly laughable to say they have taken anything away from us or made the UK more like Poland or the Czech republic.

Here in Northern Ireland 'we' Have had small numbers of Portuguese coming here to work (to fill vacancies local employers can't fill at the terms offered).
Good luck to them, I say.
If there's one thing 'we' here in NI need it's more of the outside world to come in and dilute the narrow-minded insular bigotry that exists here.

But the truth still is what it is.
It isn't easy to come here, there isn't going to be a 'flood' of anyone coming.

The new entrant Bulgarians and Romanians are just about to find a new layer of British immigration control when they join the EU in 2007, the idea that the door to the UK is wide open is a myth......

.....just as the idea that those opposing the 'keep em all out' brigade are all for no control at all is another myth.

a nice article that's all over the headlines today

news.bbc.co.uk...

[edit on 1-12-2006 by st3ve_o]

Originally posted by st3ve_o
well they want to put a stop to immigration into britain and to be honest i think it's something all people want in this country.

classic example, theres this massive warehouse opened up where i live creating loads of new jobs, yet no 'british' people can get these jobs (my dad for one) because they are setting all these kosovens on :/

put it this way ive never voted in my life, but will do in the next election.

Have you asked your dad why he couldn't get the job that immigrants got?

If you're going to vote for the BNP just because a warehouse wouldn't employ your dad, perhaps it's a good thing you've never voted before!

Originally posted by st3ve_o
a nice article that's all over the headlines today

news.bbc.co.uk...

- What's your point st3ve_o?
(please don't link to articles without expressing a view)

Are you making a point about the possibility that some of the people who have come here are travelling on faked & false documents (which is hardly new or earth-shattering news, I'm afraid).

.....or maybe you're using this article as a roundabout way of saying you support the movement in a large number of countries (including the UK) to more secure biometric passports........ and the proposed biometric ID cards for us here in the UK?

my point is, we don't know who we are letting in/boarders not secure (same as i said a few days ago) - labour as no clue how to prevent it.

take it in mind this is just one 'undercover' occasion, how many times as it been done by 'real' illegal immigrants? how many 'thousands' are living in the country already?

also you like all the figures about how immigration is 'benefiting' our economy, here’s a link to back up my argument showing how 'not so good' it is:-

www.migrationwatchuk.org...

www.migrationwatchuk.org...

it's not that beneficial to britain as you think is it?

[edit on 1-12-2006 by st3ve_o]

- What possible "flood"?

The UK has umteen immigration laws, it is not easy to come here.

It's true it is easier if you are from the EU (but equally that applies both ways).
It's also true that since the last EU enlargement many Poles and Czechs have come here......and what?
They contribute, they are here to work and many of them are here temporarily.
It's also frankly laughable to say they have taken anything away from us or made the UK more like Poland or the Czech republic.

Whislt I tend to agree with you in principle, with regards to this whole immigration debate, I do have reservations about the level of immigrants coming and not intergrating.

Your above comment made my hairs stand up on my neck. Do you live in an area with a high Polish or Czech community? No (I know you don't...) , well I do.

Let me just say that , Yes, they have made Reading into a little Warsaw. Even our weekly newspaper, the Reading Chronicle, now has a Polish edition. Shop signs are in Polish, I can't even pronounce them! Even the local superstore is stocking Polish food at the expense of "normal" food. Even our Pubs are having "Polish Only nights"!!!!

I mean, WTF???!! Polish Only??

Now, I think my main bug-bear and alot of others to boot, is not the amount of immigrants, but the fact that they come here, don't speak the langauge, don't bother to learn it and carry on as if they did in their home country. I couldn't give a monkeys if 5 million Poles came here, but I damn well expect they speak English and at least attempt to make some provisions for living in the UK, which most do not.

That's the problem. Nothing economic, nothing racist, just plain simple fact. They DO NOT integrate, making the natives feeling uneasy and causing problems further down the line when it come to infrastructure requirements, education etc.

I have already before complained at the Asians getting leaflets in 17 different languages from our council, as well as special services only for them, which adds onto the council tax bill. They also provide special classes for immigrant children teaching in their own langauge!

In effect, I am paying extra money so some dude can get his benefits explained to him in Urdu. Why? He can bloody well speak English or not at all. It may sound harsh, but I resent paying for services being provided in a language that is spoken only by immigrants.

Does this factor into the "economic boost" equation?

Because the year on year rises in housing (as a result of pressure from immigrants), council tax (again, rising due to rising cost's) and other costs certainly don't feel like an economic boost to me!

Originally posted by st3ve_o
my point is, we don't know who we are letting in/boarders not secure

- There's no such thing as a 'totally secure border', it's a fantasy designed to exploit those who believe in such nonsense.
Even the Berlin wall wasn't "totally secure".

labour as no clue how to prevent it.

- Actually that's simply not true.
You might not agree with their actions to date and their recent proposals but to say they have done nothing or have no idea on this is completely false.

They have been spending more on the Police, Home Office, airport, port and tunnel security (staff and machinery).

They also want to introduce biometric passports (and have agreed with many other countries to do so) and a biometric ID card to bring further security and control to this area.

take it in mind this is just one 'undercover' occasion, how many times as it been done by 'real' illegal immigrants? how many 'thousands' are living in the country already?

- Probably several thousand.

and what?

It has always been that way. You can't make a hermetically sealed border.

you like all the figures about how immigration is 'benefiting' our economy, here’s a link to back up my argument showing how 'not so good' it is:-

www.migrationwatchuk.org...

www.migrationwatchuk.org...

- 'Migration Watch' aren't exactly an unbiased and reputable group in this debate.

it's not that beneficial to britain as you think is it?

- If you think the singular 'Migration Watch' are the kind of unbiased people to listen to (as opposed to several various independent news groups etc) then work away.

I can point to a host of serious respected news groups and you have Migration Watch and the local nazi party.
What do you honestly find credible?

Maybe you'd like to link to the BNP site to 'prove' something - they're really not far off of that level.

Originally posted by stumason

I do have reservations about the level of immigrants coming and not intergrating.

- I really don't see it as very much different to any ex-pat group anywhere stu, especially Brits living abroad.

You should see the various ex-pat groups abroad, Britons in the middle east and the far east, for instance, seriously, talk about 'time-warp' enclaves of old Empire days gone by.

Even in the USA, the ex-pats group together to keep a little of 'home' alive for them.

Even our weekly newspaper, the Reading Chronicle, now has a Polish edition.

- ....and?
That just sounds to me like someone there has a good business brain.

It's still true that nothing has been taken from you by them doing this
(in fact the additional sales & profitability they bring has possibly made your local provincial paper more secure than otherwise would be in these difficult times).

Shop signs are in Polish, I can't even pronounce them!

- This is no different to any area with a large ethnic population.
In east London there are many Asian shops, with Asian signs and products catering to a large Asian market, for instance.

They don't exclude anyone, I used to choose to shop in them because for certain products that I wanted anyway (like rices and spices) they were much better quality and far lower prices.

Again they took nothing away from 'my area' but they did add to it IMO.

There were still several hundred 'English shops' (and at least 8 enormous all-in-one hypermarkets within easy travelling distance. ......and if you really want to talk about destroying 'local character and trade I'd say start with them, and their national effects making every town look identical to the next; not a little group of Poles somewhere).

Even the local superstore is stocking Polish food at the expense of "normal" food.

- I'm sorry stu, I find that hard to believe.

OK, so they might be making a little shelf space available to Polish foods but to say you can no longer get your English foods and you've honestly lost out is stretching this beyond breaking point.

One or two might have done this but I'd bet the house that your town still has pretty much everything it ever used to have in this respect; even if one or two outlets have made a little space for thenew 'tastes'.

Even our Pubs are having "Polish Only nights"!!!!

I mean, WTF???!! Polish Only??

- Again, just because a pub (or a club) has a Polish night is hardly indicative of the place turning Polish.
Pubs and clubs are private establishments afterall and if the management thinks there's profit in it and chooses to have any kind of provate specific night it's hardly the end of the world, right?
Don't you have any places with 'gay nights' perhaps?
You wouldn't say Reading has 'gone gay' would you?

It's just a nod to the reality of having some Poles in the area but once again I just don't see that as 'them taking something from you'......there's a majority of other pubs not doing Polish nights, right?

I couldn't give a monkeys if 5 million Poles came here, but I damn well expect they speak English and at least attempt to make some provisions for living in the UK, which most do not.

- I think that's a sweeping generalisation stu.

......and like I said how is that different to how British ex-pats are abroad?

I knew people who went to India with the BAe Jaguar project, I can promise you that beyond the obligatory 'do you speak speak English' there's not one of them took up Indian customs or language.
It's perfectly natural and usual and I just don't see it as in any way threatening.

They DO NOT integrate, making the natives feeling uneasy

- That's the real problem stu.

It's local people unused to something different and feeling uneasy about it (and possibly letting imaginations run riot).

Like everywhere else it'll probably be that way for a while until people do get more used to it.....and in 10yrs time most folks will wonder what the fuss was all about.

and causing problems further down the line when it come to infrastructure requirements, education etc.

- I think the record is proving they are contributing and helping economically (especially with things like keeping schools and facilities open as 'our' birth rates tumble).

I have already before complained at the Asians getting leaflets in 17 different languages from our council, as well as special services only for them, which adds onto the council tax bill. They also provide special classes for immigrant children teaching in their own langauge!

- Aren't they tax-payers too?

Don't they have a right to have some funding spent on projects they wish to see?

Why shouldn't they have assistance towards helping their kids retain at least some of their 'identity'?

the year on year rises in housing (as a result of pressure from immigrants), council tax (again, rising due to rising cost's) and other costs certainly don't feel like an economic boost to me!

- Well the fact is that compared to most people who have ever lived and the majority alive in the world today you are a very wealthy man (unless you are living the most reduced circumstances here).

We can all bitch about our responsibilities and out-goings but there's the truth stu, whether you see it or care to accept it or not.

You're a comparatively rich man living in a very rich country.

......and it's true, there's not a country on the globe that didn't benefit from the kind of peaceable immigration 'we' have now.

It's not uncontrolled and it's not a total free-for-all.......and compared to the kind of neo-fascist alternative that would be (pointlessly) required to try and clamp down on it completely (and yet still fail) it's a hell of a lot better.

[edit on 2-12-2006 by sminkeypinkey]