How long is it going to be before people start voting for the BNP party?

Rather than address point for point, because as I said, we are largely in aggreement about most things, I shall keep it short.

I do not oppose immigration, all i ask is that as well as inputting their culture, they also take them time to integrate into the existing one. We're expected to help them integrate and be all friendly, but what, aprt from bloated treasury coffers, do we actually get back?

Point in hand: I was waiting for a bus the other day and a sheepish looking Pole came up to me asking for directions. All he could muster was " sorry..chester street?". I pointed him the way, as it was only the next street along, yet he couldn't understand me. He did apologise for not having good english, which I accepted.

I then did something which most others would not choose or be able too: I asked him "Sprechen Sie Deutsche?". "He did "spreche", so I told him in German. I also then walked him down to where the street was and physically showed him. Turns out, he was going to work at the Polish owned car wash, who I am quite friendly with the owners.

Now, whilst I was more than happy to help, I was a little miffed that to be understood I had to speak German.

All I ask of them is to speak the langauge and learn a bit how we do things here. Right now, we are asked to accept other cultures whilst not asking the same of the immigrants. This causes a divide and in some cases, resentment. This cannot be denied.

It's not the immigrants fault, it's the PC wishy-washy Government who don't mind offending a white man, but quake in fear should a black man get angry. In the US, they get citizenship training and coaching. It may seem a little fascist, but to learn a little about the country which your moving too is not that much to ask, surely? I'd hazard a guess and say I know more about Polish history than the Poles know about English and I have never been there! (It has to be said I am a complete geek and know too much about many trivial subjects, mind you)

As for you comment about the pubs. yes, there are other pubs that don't have a Polish night, but when it's my regular haunt forsaking English Beer for sub-standard continental lager, I get a little hot under the collar.

Come one and come all, I say, but DO NOT mess with my beer!!

[edit on 2/12/06 by stumason]

Originally posted by stumason
as I said, we are largely in aggreement about most things

- Tis true.

We're expected to help them integrate and be all friendly, but what, aprt from bloated treasury coffers, do we actually get back?

- Well be fair, they haven't been here too long.

We had a news report about the immigrant Portuguese here in NI; their parents found it a struggle but their kids were amazing, learning extremely passable conversational English in a space of 2yrs (but I have to say the Norther Ireland accent mixed with a Portuguese twang is pretty jarring).

Now, whilst I was more than happy to help, I was a little miffed that to be understood I had to speak German.

- Do you know stu the same thing happened to me (but in reverse) when I was on holiday in Greece once.
I hope the Greeks that helped me out weren't offended at having to use a little German to assist me.
But it's hardly the end of the earth, huh?

it's the PC wishy-washy Government who don't mind offending a white man, but quake in fear should a black man get angry.

- Now come on stu, how come "black men" suddenly came into this?

In the US, they get citizenship training and coaching. It may seem a little fascist, but to learn a little about the country which your moving too is not that much to ask, surely?

- Well matey thanks to this "PC wishy-washey Gov" that is exactly what has been introduced here.
citizenship ceremonies and life in the UK test

As for you comment about the pubs. yes, there are other pubs that don't have a Polish night, but when it's my regular haunt forsaking English Beer for sub-standard continental lager, I get a little hot under the collar.

Come one and come all, I say, but DO NOT mess with my beer!!

-
Fair enough stu.......I just reckon you should be complaining to your pub management or their 'chain parent company'; it's hardly the Poles' fault, no?

We had a news report about the immigrant Portuguese here in NI; their parents found it a struggle but their kids were amazing, learning extremely passable conversational English in a space of 2yrs (but I have to say the Norther Ireland accent mixed with a Portuguese twang is pretty jarring).

I'd be surprised if anyone could understand anything! Crikey...

Do you know stu the same thing happened to me (but in reverse) when I was on holiday in Greece once.
I hope the Greeks that helped me out weren't offended at having to use a little German to assist me.
But it's hardly the end of the earth, huh?

There is a difference between going on holiday and living somewhere though. If I moved to another country, I wouldn't go unless I had a sound grasp of the langauge there. I respect other cultures, when in Rome, that sort of thing. That's just me though...

- Now come on stu, how come "black men" suddenly came into this?

Figure of speech, Smink. I could have used Green as my colour of choice, but I think that would have confused the issue. Bottom line is, the Government is terrified of offending minorities, be they blue, black, green or Octarine (read any Pratchett and ye shall know) ....

- Well matey thanks to this "PC wishy-washey Gov" that is exactly what has been introduced here.

About time too! Nice to see they have added it to the curriculum as well, although I haven't yet studied the fine print, so what it entails exactly is still unknown to me.

Fair enough stu.......I just reckon you should be complaining to your pub management or their 'chain parent company'; it's hardly the Poles' fault, no?

Grumble...over here...grumble......taking our women..grumble...

decided to bring this topic back up since its been highly discussed this week regarding the new entries into the EU:-

Source Link

Immigration numbers benefit UK 4p a week
--------

GOVERNMENT and business leaders last night moved swiftly to play down claims that the benefits to the UK economy from immigration amounted to just 4p a week for everyone in Britain.

Migrationwatch, which campaigns against mass immigration, said the gain to the native population would allow each person to buy just a third of a Mars bar a month.

It said the biggest beneficiaries were immigrants' families who stayed behind, with £10m being sent home per day.

But both the Home Office and employers organisation the CBI said immigration had made a huge contribution to the economy and there was no evidence that it was creating rising indigenous unemployment.

This week has seen Bulgaria and Romania join the EU, and since the last expansion in 2004 more than 12,000 east Europeans - mainly Poles - have moved to live in Wales. There are large Polish communities in all three major Welsh cities but also in Carmarthenshire and Wrexham.

^^^
*above* good recent news link for what immigration REALLY does for the people of britain.

[edit on 7-1-2007 by st3ve_o]

mod edit: cut down length of link to correct page width, changed quote tags to external quote tags, reduced size of external quote

Quote Reference (review link)

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[edit on 8-1-2007 by UK Wizard]

But, even if this were the most reliable figure around (and it's not), it blows the whole "They just take our money" theory out of the water.

Going by this figure (4p per week per person in the UK) and assuming that the UK has 60,000,000 inhabitants (I believe it's slightly more now, but it'll do), this means that immigration brings the UK £2,400,000 per week or £124,800,000 per year.

That could pay for 5,000 or so new teachers' wages, about the same number of police officers or maybe a couple of thousand GPs, maybe a new hospital or two...

wow, 1/2 new hospitals!

nice conpensation for the whole of britain talking different languages to each other *sarcasm*

edit:- and with the british justice system mate its a waste of time having police, a lad where i live punched the pub landlord (father of 2) about a year ago.

that kid then went off to another club bragging how he just knocked somebody out, it turns round that man died as he hit his head on something the way he landed, that kid served 1 year for manslaughter and hes out now still drinking in the same club where it happened

in america he'd get 20/25 years for manslaughter, they don't mess about there.

[edit on 8-1-2007 by st3ve_o]

Originally posted by st3ve_o
in america he'd get 20/25 years for manslaughter, they don't mess about there.
[edit on 8-1-2007 by st3ve_o]

It's not really the police's fault, since they must've arrested him if he was charged. The jury would decide if the person in question is guilty and the court would decide on the sentencing. I have to admit I sometimes find the very lenient sentences which are dished out by our courts very surprising, but the only body capable of getting judges to be tougher is Parliament - hence, you could write to your MP with the example in question and they would have to make some sort of response as to why they can't toughen up the law or they may even put up a bill trying to draw attention to the lenient sentencing which could have a snowball effect. Might be worth a try, no?

We're off-topic, anyway. It might pay for the construction of one or two hospitals or perhaps keep a dozen or more open. The fact is that, when you add it up, it's a considerable sum of money. I have to hand it to MigrationWatch - they certainly made immigration sound not at all worthwhile economically unless you do the sums yourself, but this is why I keep saying you have to be very careful about the figures you read in the press

The site you posted actually says that immigrants bring in £4,000,000,000 per year, so it could buy a number of very significant things. It may only give you 0.1% of the UK's GDP, but what do you expect? These people are very much in the minority and they generally have low-paid jobs (some of the minimum-wage jobs which native Britons don't want). They don't have all that much tax to put into the system to start with, hence they don't make up 5% or 10% of our GDP.

[edit on 8-1-2007 by Ste2652]

Originally posted by st3ve_o
wow, 1/2 new hospitals!

...

in america he'd get 20/25 years for manslaughter, they don't mess about there.

Well why don't you go and live there? Besides the irony of becoming an immigrant yourself

I think everyone that reads this thread is sick of your closed minded and bigoted approach. I personally think 1 or 2 new hospitals is a good thing, why dont you? I personally think more teachers is a good thing, why don't you?

Originally posted by gfad
Well why don't you go and live there? Besides the irony of becoming an immigrant yourself

I think everyone that reads this thread is sick of your closed minded and bigoted approach. I personally think 1 or 2 new hospitals is a good thing, why dont you? I personally think more teachers is a good thing, why don't you?

because i don't want t to live in america, i am just stating our justice system is weak.

of course 1 or 2 hospitals is a good thing, but if it causes a nation to loose its identity, causes a nation to be divided, causes 'true' british citizens the chance of employment because foreginers are front of the list for jobs (more so than we ourselfs) then i think its a bad thing.

of course immgration is good for people will specialist skills that we need (dentists/nurses/doctors), but at the moment we are letting people in whos only skill is working in warehouses or claiming benefits and cuing up at the dole every 2 weeks (ie:- Omar Bakri)

www.jihadwatch.org...

www.interet-general.info...

[edit on 8-1-2007 by st3ve_o]

Even your own source says that there is no evidence that immigration is causing unemployment in the British population. Already in this thread I and other posters have challenged you about this claim and you couldn't support it. You don't have any evidence that its true because there isn't any. Find another cover for your racism.

call me what you will, if racist males me not wanting my country to be invaded by a bunch of foreigners and not want 'england' to have a bunch of road signs in another language - then niceone label me as that.

but even if you dismiss my previous point and even though its not been proven it prevents employment for native brits, IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T HELP (thats one thing for sure), i can relate to that if you read back pages1/2, but what about the other points in the links?

ie:- it does nothing really for the people of britain except boost our population and all we native (brits) get from this is the equivalent of a 3rd of a mars bar per month

and i quote another point:-

the biggest beneficiaries were immigrants' families who stayed behind, with £10m being sent home per day.

i for one don't like mars bars and even if i did i would want a full one.

[edit on 8-1-2007 by st3ve_o]

Originally posted by st3ve_o
ie:- it does nothing really for the people of britain except boost our population and all we native (brits) get from this is the equivalent of a 3rd of a mars bar per month

Are you really that blinkered into your racist attitude that you can't see past what you get to see what society gets? Cant you see the bigger picture which has been laid out for you?

1/3 mars bar each every month = new hospitals and teachers for children

yeah alrite man, i like the way you go "hospital and doctors for everyone"

who says it goes on that? it might pay for prescotts golfing trips & his luxury house, i also like the way you shout 'RACIST' when someone comes along with some good points, ive already explained on the previous page i'm not racist (a muslim, black, asian) born in this country are just as much british as i am, what i don't like is MORE 'foreigners' (not born here) coming from overseas with little benefit to british society.

all you keep saying is the handful of 'good' points that immigration brings and there really only is an HANDFULL…the downside of immigration for exceeds the positives for me, i could turn round and say roman abramovich is a good for english football.

bringing in top quality footballers to the premiership/making neutrals watch good entertaining football (those are the positives).

yet when you look at the negatives its $hite (destroying football, clubs can't compete, salaries too high, taping-ups) list goes on, your not looking at the BIG picture and just keep repeating the same thing over and over again (hospital/police and doctors)

Some people are working very hard to ignore the fact that even a group with a well known and very anti-immigration stance couldn't actually write immigration off as being a negative effect on the UK economy and had to admit it has a positive effect.

I'd also advise folks watch their language.

We don't care if you try to be clever and hide it, foul language is not acceptable at any time around here.

This week has seen Bulgaria and Romania join the EU, and since the last expansion in 2004 more than 12,000 east Europeans - mainly Poles - have moved to live in Wales. There are large Polish communities in all three major Welsh cities but also in Carmarthenshire and Wrexham.

...Migrationwatch said immigration brings £4bn a year to Britain's gross domestic product (GDP), using Government figures. This amounted to 0.01% of overall GDP, or £2.10 a year for each of Britain's 60 million inhabitants, or 4p a week, the report suggested.

£4bn/12,000 = £333,333.333 contribution to GDP per immigrant since 2004!

This doesn't seem right, there's only so much you can earn from the low level jobs they are reportedly taking up. Is this saying the countires cleaners, whatever nationality provide over 20 times their income?

So I've searched for how many immigrants there are in the country. Map of people born abroad in UK.

This shows that 4.3 million people in england between 1971 - 2001 were born abroad. Are these also to be added into the above calculation?

£4bn/4,312,000 = £927 contribution to GDP per immigrant.

Or can we say each one of these people provide £333,333.333 to the GDP, providing us with £1.437 trillion.

Basically I'm trying to point out that stats are used to prove anything and I think the ones in this article prove nothing. It'd be nice to know the truth on the contribution immigration makes to our country.

"The main beneficiaries are the immigrants themselves who are able to send home about £10m a day, not the host nation."

£10mil x 52 = £520,000,000 sent to immigrants families per year. An 1/8 of proposed GDP. Say each of these 12,000 immigrants earn £15,000 per annum for their low level job (that 'our people don't want' (that really grates, but anyway)). That means they earn a net £180,000,000, less than half the proposed money they send abroad.

The CBI's Susan Anderson said, "Migrationwatch is seeking to score a few cheap political points with these figures but the benefits of migration need to be looked at more deeply.

"Migrants to the UK bring valuable skills and ideas with them and help to fill job vacancies where Britons are unable or unwilling to do so. Their taxes help pay for our public services and our pensions, long after many migrants have returned home.

CBI claims immigrants bring £54.3bn in added value to the economy. This wooly approach smacks of spin. What is added value but some management speak. Anyway, how can one report say they provide £50bn more than another.

Did anybody else read about the lack of freedom of information since the freedom of information act. It's because nobodies got any.

Sminkey has been a strong advocate in this thread that you can't put an economic vale on some of the immigrants contributions, such as us being able to mix with other cultures and learn from them. The problem is that many peopel don't want to mix and therefore this isn't really a reason for promoting uncontrolled immigration.Uncontrolled immigration promotes racism. During my christmas holiday back in Coventry I was appalled at the amount of people I met who had such negative things to say about the polish. Also I heard many 'muslim jokes' in very bad taste. But anyway, in the beggining of the provided article from icWales it says that the government knows there is a feeling of discontent about immigration from the general population, but instead of quashing this report they should do something about it.

I just remembered another story to recount. I was on my way home and a polish man saw me having a cigarette outside the bus station. I gave him one and then he started crying (he was drunk and was drinking from a bottle). He was saying, through a mixture of sign language and very broken english, that he had been a soldier, had come here in search of a job and then couldn't find one and had nowhere to go. My advice was to go to the job centre, I didn't know what else to say. But then he started asking for money, I said I'd give him £2 for some food and he started saying give me £3... the cheek. Ha, ah well. I gave him the £2 and watched him go get some chips. It's just an experience I had, draw from it what you will.

I think the £4bn/12,000 sum doesn't seem right because the article says this is the number of immigrants who have moved to Wales, not taking into account those who've gone to the rest of the United Kingdom.

I think it's worth bearing in mind that tales of a free-for-all with little else but 'low income work' being performed are not quite the whole truth with the recent immigration to Britain.

The immigration of those who are working as well paid but scarce professionals for instance (of whom there have been many in the NHS for instance) can hardly be dismissed in this manner.

Sadly we're probably always going to have the Alf Garnet element (and he's been around since the mid 1960's).

Thankfully despite the minority most just get on with their life and have no desire to live life in a dreary, thoroughly boring, dead, fossilised and decaying mono-culture.

[edit on 9-1-2007 by sminkeypinkey]

All I was trying to do by synthysising the data in the report was show that it doesn't really make sense when trying to understand the value of allowing anybody from the EU come to this country to work.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Thankfully despite the minority most just get on with their life and have no desire to live life in a dreary, thoroughly boring, dead, fossilised and decaying mono-culture.

What I was saying is that the majority of the people I met during the three weeks at home would rather live in a mono-culture. They percieve immigrants getting rights before them. For example one person I met was trying to get a council house, and the person talking him through his application said there was a three month waiting list. She supposedly said that if he was from an ethnic minority it would be a 3 week waiting list.

Another example. I was working with my dad for a few days, and we drove past a temple, and the religious people in the area had put up flags over the street. I thought it brightened up an otherwise dreary area, but my dad only saw that they were doing something he percieved he couldn't do.

I think it is only right that people in this country come first before immigrants. It is the way the current system should work, and putting minority groups before native english people causes racism.

Just another account of my experience with an asylum seeker. I was walking home from sixth form having a cigarette. This bloke came up to me and said "Cigarette... cigarette". I said "No, you should say please and then I might have". He looked at me in disgust and then reached into his jacket as if to pull out a knife... This wasn't an immigrant but an asylum seeker, but I think it shows the problems caused when proper intergration isn't enforced.

As I've said before, this is a very complicated topic with nuances that are hard to see but could make alot of difference. What we need is an authoritative account of the implications of immigration.

I think making imigration the villain of the piece is a red herring, the BNP are exploiting far more than that in their bid to recruit more people, there's a whole panopoly of issues that are causing anger and discontent amongst disenfranchised working and middle class people. Until mainstream parties start looking at these issues honestly and with some kind of political will they'll continue to do so. You can blame people for being misguided but not for feeling desperate.

I get kind of exasperated by how these types of discussions always seem to pan out though, the Alf Garnetts as Smikey calls them frothing at the mouth and seeing fuzzy wuzzies stealing his jobs/women/country at every turn, the poncho wearing 70's prototype social worker crying racist at any hint that all non white English/ethnic minorities are incapable of being anything but good or misunderstood or just victims of 'the man' and riding around on their knackered out high horses and feeling superior.

The reality is that immigration is generally a good thing for a country, unlimited/uncontrolled immigration is almost certainly not. Most reasonable people don't HATE someone for their skin colour or ethnicity, they may resent it though if they percieve it as a passport for an easier ride than they get Stop confusing self interest with racism and racial bigotry with patriotism, start listening to the fears of both sides, try to understand where they're coming from and reach an understanding.

[edit on 9-1-2007 by ubermunche]

[edit on 9-1-2007 by ubermunche]

i agree with the above member.

i'm for immigration if its controlled (doctors/nurses/dentist/people will specialist skills) should be first priority.

what is not expectable (2005) 1,500 immigrants came to live in britain everyday with 1000 'brits' leaving per day….2007 with the new entries into the EU its going to get worse and the government is not/and don't seem interested in controlling it.

as said in previous pages i don't expect the BP party to get into power, but if people vote for them and their popularity builds, then the government in power (labour/conservative) will take notice and see british people are getting sick of immigration into this country.

as said my in earlier pages my dad couldn't get a job in this warehouse because this company were setting kosovoans on and quite frankly they have more priority than native brits he’s now got a job working on the track (railway) and its full of polish.

he told me a story yesterday and my dad was joking with this pole saying "yeah, your taking over this country now" the pole smiled and said "yes" and then the pole was rattling on how british women are $lags.

end of the day people are getting sick of immigration into this country and there’s many people talking about the BP party as they are the only ones interested in stopping it and that’s my honest opinion, if its not ‘controlled’ stop it altogether, vote BP.