92 Year Old Woman Goes Out Shooting When Cops Kick Down the Door(Update)

The police appear to have acted lawfully, I would say "properly" is stretching it.

I don't think anyone is disputing that they opened fire in self defence after being fired upon, that seems pretty clear. My point is that some scouting of the location, and perhaps a more agressive attempt to identify themselves, would have probably prevented this tragedy.

This policy of going in and breaking down the door before trying anything else is as apt to result in cops and innocent civilains ending up dead as it is to result in any arrests.

Another tragic chapter in the permanent state of madness and gang warfare that is the "War on Drugs". You'd think we'd have learned our lesson after we tried Prohibition and failed once, but unfortunately people seem to think you can repeat the same mistakes without getting the same results.



[edit on 11/22/06 by xmotex]

So far it seems that the male in question is here say that the purchase was done at that address and not show for the male seller but a death elderly woman.

Guess what, I smell a rat, look like a rat and I think is a rat.

Is all about here say, my word against the death woman word, I am the law you are death.

i think the prob with scoutin is the time window, say you got 3 guys inside with coke, an then a cop goes around an looks for his scouting targets, he gives himself away an they just kill the cop without him knowing.

i mean just alot of things can happen during that scouting that would of been neturalized if people were just sent in.

i think they do it the way they do now is becuz it makes the best use of the time given.

Originally posted by xmotex
The police appear to have acted lawfully, I would say "properly" is stretching it.

I don't think anyone is disputing that they opened fire in self defence after being fired upon, that seems pretty clear. My point is that some scouting of the location, and perhaps a more agressive attempt to identify themselves, would have probably prevented this tragedy.

This policy of going in and breaking down the door before trying anything else is as apt to result in cops and innocent civilains ending up dead as it is to result in any arrests.

Another tragic chapter in the permanent state of madness and gang warfare that is the "War on Drugs". You'd think we'd have learned our lesson after we tried Prohibition and failed once, but unfortunately people seem to think you can repeat the same mistakes without getting the same results.



[edit on 11/22/06 by xmotex]

definition: insane.


repeating the same experiment over and over, expecting differing results.



by way of logic;

insane is to expect varied outcome from stable input.
our leaders believe a varied outcome will occur by way of historically failed procedures.
our leaders are insane.

well, i'll blame the police....for blatant stupidity in not doing their homework. it's the worst neighborhood in atlanta (i can vouch for that). it may have been a "john doe" warrant, but the certainly knew who the primary resident was, and she had a pistol permit.

lets see here.....little old lady in a badass neighborhood who has a pistol permit on file. naw, i wouldnt have been expecting her to defend herself. whatever. these guys were too lazy to do their homework before the raid and paid for it with their wounds....unfortunately, a citizen paid for it with her life. i dont care who you are, there is no justifying these officers's blatant laziness in insuring the safety of all involved. i hope her family collects millions from the city of atlanta.

Originally posted by xmotex
This policy of going in and breaking down the door before trying anything else is as apt to result in cops and innocent civilains ending up dead as it is to result in any arrests.

Perhaps, but they did announce themselves and I'm sure their intentions, they also waited several minutes before breaking down the door, I don't know what you would recommend. They don't have an infinite amount of time and in a real serious situation the more they wait the more time the people have to get rid of evidence, prepare for them (think guns) and escape.

Snafu, they're suppose to automatically know that a 92 year old resident will shoot at police, who have announced themselves BTW, five time? Being a bit unreasonable aren't we?


[edit on 22-11-2006 by WestPoint23]

but doesnt that info go out the window when the house is being used by other people?

like her son or whoever SAM is that sold drugs to the narc,

i mean yeah old women in a bad town with a gun is gonna shoot, but at the same time was she just buying time for her son to get away?

wheres SAM? why was he there an where was the women when SAM sold drugs?

i mean just alot of things can happen during that scouting that would of been neturalized if people were just sent in.

Irrelevant.

The purpose of having a police force and a justice system at all is to protect the innocent. Catching criminals is simply a means of accomplishing that goal. Being a cop inevitably involves risk, if you're not wiling to accept some risk in order to protect innocent citizens, you need to find a new line of work.

When the police become as much a danger to ordinary citizens as the criminals, something has gone very, very wrong with the system.

Originally posted by Tranceopticalinclined
but doesnt that info go out the window when the house is being used by other people?

like her son or whoever SAM is that sold drugs to the narc,

i mean yeah old women in a bad town with a gun is gonna shoot, but at the same time was she just buying time for her son to get away?

wheres SAM? why was he there an where was the women when SAM sold drugs?

the article clearly states that her closest relative was her 75 year old niece. she didnt have a son. maybe they should have done a little more investigating before they decided to scare the crap out of a little old woman.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer
...no where did i see mention of ANY drugs being found...

Was it the right address? Police said yes.

The woman's niece, Sarah Dozier, said that she bought her elderly aunt a gun to protect herself and that her aunt had a permit for the gun.

Atlanta Police Asst. Chief Alan Dreher said at a news conference Wednesday that an undercover officer made a drug purchase at Johnston's address late Tuesday afternoon from a male suspect. Officers were able to obtain a search warrant after that.

Dreher said as the officers were executing the search warrant, the officers announced themselves and then forced open the door. Officials said the warrant was a "No Knock" warrant -- meaning that the officers did not knock before forcing open the door, but they did announce themselves.

Dreher said the officers had a legal warrant before they forced open the door. He said they were justified in returning fire when they were fired upon.

Dreher said as soon as the officers forced open the door, Johnston shot at the officers and the officers returned fire to protect themselves. One officer was shot 3 times -- once in the leg, on the side of the face and once in his bulletproof vest. One officer was hit in the leg and another hit in their arm.

Officials said they have not made any arrests in the case and they have not located the male suspect. Dreher said suspected narcotics were recovered from the home but police are awaiting lab results to confirm that.

Dreher said a marked patrol vehicle was parked in front of the residence and the word "Police" was written across the front and back of the narcotics team's vests. He also said only a matter of minutes passed between when officers arrived at the scene and when they forced open the door.

Link

Now, shall we dispense with the bull?

The Police in ever single facet of this case acted lawfully and proper. Even if the old lady was not a criminal or responsible for nay crime prior to the shooting the police respond back in self defense, they acted lawfully, again, notice that they were shot five times before returning fire. At worst this is just a tragic accident which cannot be blamed on the police.

[edit on 22-11-2006 by WestPoint23]

So you are telling me that since this NINETY-TWO year old woman couldn't read there vests or hear the police NOT KNOCK that they are justified? Or do you really mean, "Hey, maybe we should taket this womans age, hearing, and eyesight into consideration and possibly scope who is coming and going for a few minutes before we bust in yelling and screaming at a woman who was obviously scared enough for her life to obtain a gun and permit." don't you think the police had access to who has a gun permit and at what address? Are they not required to think before acting? Or at the very least find out if anyone at that address has a REGISTERED firearm? A little "detective" work (pun intended) on their part could have prevented this. And most importantly SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE TO PREVENT THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!! INCOMPETENCE!! feel free to argue.

Originally posted by snafu7700
well, i'll blame the police....for blatant stupidity in not doing their homework. it's the worst neighborhood in atlanta (i can vouch for that). it may have been a "john doe" warrant, but the certainly knew who the primary resident was, and she had a pistol permit.

lets see here.....little old lady in a badass neighborhood who has a pistol permit on file. naw, i wouldnt have been expecting her to defend herself. whatever. these guys were too lazy to do their homework before the raid and paid for it with their wounds....unfortunately, a citizen paid for it with her life. i dont care who you are, there is no justifying these officers's blatant laziness in insuring the safety of all involved. i hope her family collects millions from the city of atlanta.

Exactly! End of disscusion, unless anyone out there wants to keep this going. I have all night!

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Snafu, they're suppose to automatically know that a 92 year old resident will shoot at police, who have announced themselves BTW, five time? Being a bit unreasonable aren't we?

yeah, they are supposed to know that. it's atlanta for crying out loud. she isnt the first little old lady to carry a gun around, and they damned well should have known that she had one....the permit was on file for crying out loud.

seems to me that if i were going to bust somebody's door down, the first thing i would do is check and see if they were firearm owners.

and by the way, you dont need a permit to own a pistol in georgia, just to carry it concealed. and unless youre ex-military, you've got to pass a test proving that you are proficient in it's use. therefore, having a permit shouldve made these idiots go "wait a second, maybe we oughta be a mite careful on this one."

Originally posted by Tranceopticalinclined
but doesnt that info go out the window when the house is being used by other people?

like her son or whoever SAM is that sold drugs to the narc,

i mean yeah old women in a bad town with a gun is gonna shoot, but at the same time was she just buying time for her son to get away?

wheres SAM? why was he there an where was the women when SAM sold drugs?

Doh, we forgot about the back window!!! What on earth were we thinking? Oh thats right we weren't thinking, we shot dead a 92 year old woman in her own home because she was exersizing her right to bear legal arms!!!

[edit on 22-11-2006 by kleverone]

So you are telling me that since this NINETY-TWO year old woman couldn't read there vests or hear the police NOT KNOCK that they are justified?

Umm... they did not know who was in the house, they announced themselves, waited several minutes, knocked down the door, were shot at five times, returned fire and killed the shooter. They were justified in everything they did.

yeah, they are supposed to know that. it's atlanta for crying out loud.

And that means what exactly? That you are entitled to shoot at the police who have identified themselves and have waited minutes for you to open the door? Sorry but like I said they had no way of knowing exactly who was in the house and how they would respond, nor does the old lady have a right to shoot at the police.

Oh thats right we weren't thinking, we shot dead a 92 year old woman in her own home because she was exersizing her right to bear legal arms!!!

Dude WTF are you talking about? She shot at the police five times, police who had announced themselves and who has acted in a lawful manner, come on man, deny freaking ignorance, bear arms?

[edit on 22-11-2006 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23

yeah, they are supposed to know that. it's atlanta for crying out loud.

And that means what exactly?

it means you didnt read the whole post....go back, read again the explanation of what a permit means in georgia, and try again. these guys didnt do their homework, plain and simple.

Originally posted by kleverone

Originally posted by Tranceopticalinclined
but doesnt that info go out the window when the house is being used by other people?

like her son or whoever SAM is that sold drugs to the narc,

i mean yeah old women in a bad town with a gun is gonna shoot, but at the same time was she just buying time for her son to get away?

wheres SAM? why was he there an where was the women when SAM sold drugs?

Doh, we forgot about the back window!!!

What on earth were we thinking? Oh thats right we weren't thinking, we shot dead a 92 year old woman in her own home because she was exersizing her right to bear legal arms!!!

[edit on 22-11-2006 by kleverone]

she shot the police. her rights were officially null and void due to this. this is not the idea we are debating, but the competency of the police. please dont try to derail.

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer
she shot the police. her rights were officially null and void due to this. this is not the idea we are debating, but the competency of the police. please dont try to derail.

so by shooting at armed intruders in her home, her rights are null and void? please show me that law, because i certainly dont ever remember reading it as a georgia resident when i lived there and held a concealed carry permit. nor do i remember the constitution reading that way.

Hey Quicksilver, I am still wating for a reply from you. Why do feel the need to assume she shot at the officers out in the yard? The article clearly states she was sitting in her home. Why do you base the meat of your posts off assumption? I would love to hear what you have to say about this. Funny but I can't help but equate you arrogance as a moderator to those of the police who shot the woman. "Yeah but would if this.... and would if that....." Do you base all of your posting knowlege off of assumption or are we just lucky? Yes I am a smartass but only when provoked. Choose your arguments wisely or look silly. Don't shoot

Originally posted by snafu7700

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer
she shot the police. her rights were officially null and void due to this. this is not the idea we are debating, but the competency of the police. please dont try to derail.

so by shooting at armed intruders in her home, her rights are null and void? please show me that law, because i certainly dont ever remember reading it as a georgia resident when i lived there and held a concealed carry permit. nor do i remember the constitution reading that way.

youre arguing a useless point. she might not have known they were police but that doesnt matter worth a damn thing. if i run over a person in my car and dont stop, i should not be taken to jail because i ASSUMED it was a deer? thats the basis of your logic.


edit: please dont get me wrong i agree fully that this is bull# of the ninth degree and the police should be prosecuted. however, flawed logic and knee-jerk reactions will not save us.

[edit on 11-22-2006 by forsakenwayfarer]

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer

Originally posted by kleverone

Originally posted by Tranceopticalinclined
but doesnt that info go out the window when the house is being used by other people?

like her son or whoever SAM is that sold drugs to the narc,

i mean yeah old women in a bad town with a gun is gonna shoot, but at the same time was she just buying time for her son to get away?

wheres SAM? why was he there an where was the women when SAM sold drugs?

Doh, we forgot about the back window!!!

What on earth were we thinking? Oh thats right we weren't thinking, we shot dead a 92 year old woman in her own home because she was exersizing her right to bear legal arms!!!

[edit on 22-11-2006 by kleverone]

she shot the police. her rights were officially null and void due to this. this is not the idea we are debating, but the competency of the police. please dont try to derail.

What part of 92 don't you relize? And I am sure you didn't take her neighborhood into account either. I sure hope you never have to live in the ghetto and really be able to form an opinion without experience. Did it ever cross your mind for one solitary second that she was so old that she couldn't see much other thatn outlines of figures, she was sitting in her home with a gun on her lap. Does that tell you anything?????? Maybe she lived in a rough part of town that you will be fortunate enough to never know. How sad that she had to sit with a gun on her lap. You have Zero compassion and I'm sure Karma will educate you soon enough. We do not live in a black and white world, there is a grey area that does exist, even if you don't agree or believe.