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posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 12:24 PM
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Why is it so wrong. We didn't want to pay the British Tariffs anymore, we started a war.

There were other reasons yes, but It boils down to economics.




posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 12:27 PM
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www.idf.il...


Printed here so you lazy Big mouth Fools can read
because I know you wont bother to read it
you might learn something.....

Human Rights Violations in Iraq


U.N. Security Council Resolution 688 (April 5, 1991) condemned Saddam Hussein’s repression of the Iraqi civilian population. The resolution also requires Saddam Hussein to end his repression of the Iraqi people and to allow immediate access to international humanitarian organizations to help those in need of assistance.

Saddam Hussein has repeatedly violated these provisions and has expanded his violence against women and children, continued his horrific torture and execution of innocent Iraqis.

Saddam has continued to violate the basic human rights of the Iraqi people and has continued to control all sources of information (including the killing of over 500 journalists in the past decade).

Saddam has also harassed humanitarian aid workers, expanded his crimes against Muslims, has withheld food from families that refuse to offer their children to his regime and has continued to subject Iraqis to unfair imprisonment.

The government of Iraq uses military force to repress civilian populations throughout the county, resulting in the deaths of thousands and the destruction of entire villages.

Iraq has refused to allow the U.N.’s special Rapporteur for Human Rights to return to Iraq since his first visit in 1992. It has also refused to allow the stationing of human rights monitors as required by the U.N. resolution.

In September 2001, the Iraqi government, without explanation, expelled six U.N. humanitarian relief workers, who until 1992 ensured the delivery of humanitarian relief services.

Iraqi authorities routinely practice extrajudicial or arbitrary executions throughout the country. The total number of prisoners that have been executed in the past five years runs into thousands, including hundreds of arbitrary executions in the last months of 1998 at the Abu Gharib and Radwaniyah prisons near Baghdad.

In the 1970’s and 1980’s, the Iraqi regime destroyed over 300 Kurdish villages. The destruction of Kurdish and Turkomen homes continues today in Iraqi-controlled areas of northern Iraq.

In northern Iraq the government is continuing its campaign of forcibly deporting Kurdish and Turkomen families to southern governments. As a result, approximately 900,000 citizens are internally displaced throughout Iraq.

Human rights organizations and opposition groups continue to receive reports of women who suffered from severe psychological trauma after being raped by Iraqi personnel while in custody. These personnel also videotape the rape of female relatives of suspected oppositionists and use the videotapes for blackmail purposes to ensure their future cooperation.

Iraqi security agents reportedly decapitated numerous women and men in front of their family members. According to Amnesty International, the victims’ heads were displayed in front of their homes for several days.

Iraq’s 1988-1989 Anfal campaign subjected the Kurdish people in northern Iraq to the most widespread attack of chemical weapons ever used against a civilian population. In the town of Halabja alone, an estimated 5,000 civilians were killed and over 10,000 were injured.

In March 1999, the regime shot and killed grand Ayatollah al Sayid Muhammad SADIG AL Sadr, the most senior Shi’a religious leader in Iraq. Since 1991, dozens of senior Shi’a clerics and hundreds of their followers have been murdered or arrested, and their whereabouts remain unknown.

In 2000, the Iraqi authorities reportedly introduced tongue amputations as a form of punishment for persons who criticize Saddam Hussein or his family.

The Iraqi security services routinely torture detainees. According to former detainees, torture techniques include branding, electric shocks to the genitals, beating, burning with hot irons, suspension from rotating ceiling fans, dripping acid on the skin, rape, breaking of limbs, denial of food and water, and threats to rape or otherwise harm relatives.

There are widespread reports that food and medicine that could have been made available to the general public, including children, have been stockpiled in warehouses or diverted for the personal use of government officials.

Amnesty International reported that Iraq has the world’s worst record for numbers of persons who have disappeared or remain unaccounted for.

Saddam Hussein does not permit freedom of speech or freedom of the press and does not tolerate political dissent in areas under his control. In November 2000, the U.N. General Assembly criticized Saddam Hussein’s “suppression of freedom of thought, expression, information, association, and assembly”.

The Special Rapporteur stated in October 1999, that citizens lived “in a climate of fear”, risking arrest and interrogation by the police or military intelligence. He noted that “the mere suggestion that someone is not a supporter of the president carries the prospect of the death penalty”.



Iraqi Involvement in Palestinian Terrorism


There is no doubt that the Iraqi regime, led by Saddam Hussein, supports Palestinian terrorism. The Iraqis are so bold that they do not even attempt to deny their involvement in supporting and encouraging terrorist attacks, especially suicide bombings, against Israeli civilians.

Iraqi assistance comes in various forms, including the passage of funds to families of terrorists, training and directing terrorists and using propaganda to ensure that Palestinian society continues to support the armed conflict.

Iraq is vehemently opposed to any Palestinian, Arab or international political initiative aimed at ending the confrontation between Israelis and Palestinians. The Iraqi regime has a keen interest in the perpetuation and even escalation in the violence between the two sides.

First, Iraq’s blatant support for the continued armed conflict, i.e. terrorism, strengthens Hussein’s status in both Palestinian society and in the entire Arab world. In addition, when the world focuses on the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, it has less time to pay attention to Iraq. This allows the Iraqi regime to temporarily avoid the spotlight that has been placed upon them over the past few months.

Iraqi Prize Money
One of the central ways in which Saddam Hussein has supported Palestinian terrorism has been through providing financial rewards to families of terrorists who have been killed while perpetrating their attacks. The different amounts of prize money offered for different attacks illustrates the Iraqi regime’s preference to see more and more suicide bombings.

The Iraqis have mechanisms in place, that work in conjunction with the Palestinian Authority, to pay the families of suicide attackers US$25,000. Families of terrorists who are killed while carrying out their attacks receive US$10,000. These funds serve as an incentive for families to sacrifice their loved ones, as well as provide them with financial stability which they fail to enjoy during this time of conflict.

It has been estimated in the media that Iraq has thus far transferred more than US$20 million to families of Palestinian terrorists. This is done with the full cooperation of the Palestinian Authority.

The “Arab Liberation Front,” as well as the Iraqi Ba’ath party operating in PA areas serve as the “payment contractors” within the framework of this terrorism encouragement policy.

Terrorist operations
Another terrorist organization, the “Palestinian Liberation Front,” headed by Muhammad Zaydan (Abu al-Abbas), serves as an operational body for carrying out terrorist attacks against Israel. This is the same organization that carried out the terrorist attack aboard the Achile Lauro ship in 1986, in which Leon Klinghoffer, a wheelchair stricken U.S. citizen, was murdered.

Arrested PLF activists have confessed to having received military training in Iraq. They have been instructed to carry out attacks against both Israeli civilian and military targets. The PLF is responsible for the kidnapping and murder of 19-year old student Yuri Gushchin as well as the planting of an explosive device at the “Checkpoint” junction in Haifa.

Endless Incitement
Finally, the Iraqi regime incessantly uses propaganda to incite the Palestinians, and the rest of the Arab world, to eliminate the State of Israel. Stories and messages to the Palestinian public are literally “bought” in the Palestinian press. The propaganda isn’t limited to Israel, but is also directed at the United States and the rest of the Western democratic world.

Summary
Hussein stated on Iraqi television on March 4, 2002, “We are glad for the Istishhadiyyah [suicide bombers] and heroic spirit of the Palestinian people. By Allah, what the Palestinian people do is beyond my expectations…”

Combining comments like this with the infrastructure Iraq has built to give out prize money to families of terrorists, there is no doubt that Iraq is a prime player in the terrorist attacks against Israel.



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 12:29 PM
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Joshua
War profittering, that;s probably why your free, we didn't want to pay taxes... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you dont seem to know what war profiteering is...it has nothing to do with us paying taxes and are you implying that the reason we started the revolutionary war was because of war profiteering?



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 12:29 PM
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posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by Joshua

Originally posted by AchesonGroup



So I suppose Saddam hanging people by their pinking toes for 48 hours and then disemboweling them in front of their families is no moral reason? Having fathers kill their sons who MIGHT have been traitors to the state and then making them kiss Saddams hand and smile and swear to Saddam is no moral reason?

It might have been justifiable if this were the reason given to go to war. The stated reason was because Saddam posessed weapons of mass destruction. Many world leaders are guilty of many of the same atrocities. Fortunately for them, they do not posess the world's second largest oil reserve. Controlling OPEC and re-shaping the mid-east are the reasons Bush took us to war. This was planned long before 9-11. Read PNAC (Project for the New American Century.
newamericancentury.org...

Gas chambers, mass graves, secret police, and genocide against the Kurdish people is no moral reason?

Did you know that the revered Winston Churchill ordered Iraqis gassed between WW1 & WW2? Read about the My Lai massacre in Vietnam, also. And.. the Iraqis have good reason not to trust the U.S. Consider George H.W. Bush urging them to rise up after the Gulf war. They did, thinking we would be there to protect them. Instead - to the horror of many, this former soldier included - under order, we stood by while Saddam's goons murdered those who rose up. I'm not justifying what Saddam did, but only trying to show that the U.S. and Britain have done wicked things, too. Ah yes, and then there's the fact that we supplied Saddam with all sorts of nasty weapons - including bio-weapons - throughout the 80's.

Or how about this one hombre... Saddam was a physco path that had no business running that country.

But he was OUR psycho when Iran was our big nemesis. (After the Iranian hostage crisis.)

I'll guaran-damn-tee that any solider who has to uncover any one of these things, is going to want to stay in that country.

I'd say we made those places better. People can now go to the center of the streets and yell "# SADDAM" or "# THE TALIBAN".

Iraq is now a much more hellish place, thanks to the idiotic non-planning of Don "Bechtel" Rumsfeld and his band of loony, never-served a day in the military, chickenhawks. He is an enemy of any soldier currently serving or past. In the words of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson (about another idiot), I think Rumsfeld should be "frog-marched out of the Pentagon in hand cuffs.



[Edited on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 12:56 PM
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We all know what Saddam did, but if anyone thinks the reason we invaded Iraq was to get rid of Saddam for the Iraqis then they are extremely naive. That's was even a minor point in the US's reasons for invasion in the first place. It was terrorism, WMD's, and an immediate threat to the U.S. remember?
Now those reasons have been exposed as flimsy at best some are grasping at things to justify the invasion that were hardly used as reason to invade in the first place. When the reasons they give are obviously exaggerated, it should make you wonder what the real reason for it was rather than trying to find ways to defend them.

Neither can you say the ends justify the means.

The ends cannot justify the means for the simple and obvious reason that the means employed determine the nature of the ends produced.

- Aldous Huxley


And of course his evil regime didn't seem to be a problem when we sold him weapons and bolstered him as a deterrent to Iran, or when he was considered the west's friend in the Middle East, or when America still had a stable relationship with Saudi Arabia...



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 12:59 PM
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the Iraqis have good reason not to trust the U.S. Consider George H.W. Bush urging them to rise up after the Gulf war. They did, thinking we would be there to protect them. Instead - to the horror of many, this former soldier included - under order, we stood by while Saddam's goons murdered those who rose up. quote eastcoastkid

great point!



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by Joshua
Are you saying that life in Saddams Iraq was puppy dogs and humming birds?

And about the draft hombre, I am enlisting after I graduate anyway
.

[Edited on 14-11-2003 by Joshua]


Joshua,
As a war vet, I urge you to do some serious research before you raise your hand and take that oath. Start with the history of Mesopotamia - beginning at the end of the 19th-century. Watch the movies "Lawrence of Arabia" and "The four feathers" - the latter is about the Sudan, but certainly and sickeningly applies. Study the Sikes-Picot Agreement that stupidly divided the country into what is now Iraq. Study the machinations that went into it. History proves Iraq is not a country that tolerates an occupation. Also, study the history of the Federal Reserve, the Kennedy Assassination, the Oklahoma City Bombing, Ruby Ridge, WACO and 9-11 - and do YOURSELF a favor - question everything - especially official versions.

I support the troops. That's why I tell it like it is. I don't want to see anyone else suffer the way so many are right now. The administration has taken us to war based on fabricated evidence and a multitude of lies.
Would you still support the Iraq war if you came home with your arms and legs blown off?

YOU ARE WORTH MORE THAN THAT!



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 01:20 PM
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Thanks, SirCyco. Unless we know the history, apart from propaganda, we cannot begin to understand the truth.



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 01:39 PM
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Joshua and Straterx,
Trying to argue either side about how Happy and Safe the people of Iraq feel toward the current situation they are living in is pointless. There is an equal amount of News and Documents to support both sides, niether of which can be Validated by anyone here at ATS since they are neither the Soldiers nor the people of Iraq.

Saddam was a # excuse for a Leader and a Killer. While it may be a good thing that we have taken him out of power, you still have the small problem in that we are "Liberating Iraq" by bringing all out WAR to their country! The body count of civilians alone is in the tens of thousands. Then you have the body count of the U.S. soldiers and Allies which is raised higher each day even though the WAR was supposed to be over already according to the liars who started it under false claims in the first place. So if you think that such actions are to be seen as Heroic or Productive you should learn the phrase: "Starting a War to achieve Peace, is like Fvcking for Virginity!" But of course if that kind of logic does not compute with either of you then by all means, JOIN UP! Go be part of the invading American Armed Forces in Iraq if you think it's such a wonderful thing to do. They will take you!! Don't waste time on here, better sign up quick or you might miss all WARGAMES!!

One last thing....

By Joshua: AchesonGroup is yet another non thinker
Who loves to repeat what hes told
By Idiots An Manipulators of Truth



By Straterx: I have one thing to yell "# YOU!"

...This # needs to stop. It's not making you look any smarter or mature in any way. Plus it's rotting away any of the Credibility and Progress that ATS has and is trying to achieve. If you haven't learned how to have a discussion without personally attacking others you don't belong on this site or any other forum site for that matter. Another phrase you may want to remember is "Don't # Where You Live!". By being an A$$ and making comments like that toward people that differ in opinion, you are SH!TTING in the Community Living Space that all ATS Members Live, including yourselves. So either be respectful toward others, or be on your way! After all, don't you have a WAR to go sign up for?



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by sirCyco
we sure didnt help out cambodia during the infamous POL POT regime !


no, 'we' helped indonesia create the killing feilds of east timor, at the time. one was reported widely, the other swept under the media rug.
there is no justification for killing TENS OF THOUSANDS of innocent children in third world countries. especially not a 'moral' one, unless human sacrifice to your lord satan can be considered moral.
it makes me sick to hear the daft justifications people give to support the evil bush regime. the weapons of mass deception seem to be very well designed.



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by Joshua

I'd say we made those places better. People can now go to the center of the streets and yell "# SADDAM" or "# THE TALIBAN".

I have one thing to yell "# YOU!"


it seems these #-yelling people are saying it with bullets and it's # the U.S.
you live in a fantasy world. the masses do not conform to your sheltered view of the world. read a book.
and how about some #ing manners while your at it.



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by billybob

Originally posted by sirCyco
the weapons of mass deception seem to be very well designed.


I say we seek out and destroy all WEAPONS OF MASS DECEPTION!



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by straterx
Thank you Joshua
Well said

AchesonGroup is yet another non thinker
Who loves to repeat what hes told
By Idiots An Manipulators of Truth



Read this Straterx and THINK about it:

The Fallacies Of American
Democracy For Iraq
By Terrell E. Arnold
11-14-3


This week US civil administrator for Iraq, L. Paul (Jerry) Bremer, was called suddenly back to Washington for consultations on the obviously worsening security situation in Iraq. Bremer's return was accompanied by grumblings from the Bush core team (Powell, Rumsfeld, Rice, and the President) about the apparent ineffectiveness of the Iraqi Governing Council. Since the beginning of November more than forty American combat deaths have occurred; U.S. forces have lost three helicopters: American forces have gone to a warlike footing in the Sunni Triangle, and at least two direct attacks have been made on Bremer's headquarters. Meanwhile, the CIA predicts that the situation will get worse, an appraisal that Bremer is reported to share.. It appears indeed time to review the bidding.

One hopes that in this hastily called review, the situation and outlook for Iraq would be looked at squarely. Up to this point, the chances for that occurring, however, have appeared slim, because the administration, and by extension Bremer's team in country, has appeared fixated on carrying out the Bush scheme for transforming Iraq into an American style democracy. The habit up to now has been to look right by what US civil and military forces are doing in Iraq and to focus merely on how the Iraqis are reacting to the occupation and specifically on their growing resistance to the occupation. The answers to those questions are, of course, terribly important, but they will be useful only if they cause the US to review and modify its Iraq agenda.

On the face of things, the US agenda has changed several times already, from protecting the United States from a monster with weapons of mass destruction, to ridding Iraq of a brutal tyrant, to "liberating" the Iraqi people, and finally to creating a democracy in Iraq as the first stage in democratizing the entire region. This transition, perhaps better called a policy retreat,, has convinced many governments and people that the US does not know what it is doing. The notion of quickly or ever transforming Middle Eastern countries into western democracies bespeaks at best a superficial appreciation of the peoples and the problems involved, but even worse, it reveals a severe lack of understanding of how our system actually is working these days.
the rest: www.rense.com...



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 03:33 PM
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"This shyte needs to stop. It's not making you look any smarter or mature in any way. Plus it's rotting away any of the Credibility and Progress that ATS has and is trying to achieve. If you haven't learned how to have a discussion without personally attacking others you don't belong on this site or any other forum site for that matter. Another phrase you may want to remember is "Don't shyte Where You Live!". By being an A$$ and making comments like that toward people that differ in opinion, you are SH!TTING in the Community Living Space that all ATS Members Live, including yourselves. So either be respectful toward others, or be on your way! After all, don't you have a WAR to go sign up for? "





Mojom
your quotes are incorrect
now I will attack somone

Your a #ing Idiot ...

If you Assholes think by acting as I f you know what your talking about makes you some kind of authority your wrong ..

If you think a pussy like you can intimidate me Your Really Stupid .....

Credibility to you is Kissing the ASS of everyone who has the same Warped view of reality you do...

This is an OPEN FORUM ..at least This is my understanding And Ill Say What Ever the # I Feel
you you Asshole...

"Starting a War to achieve Peace, is like frockin for Virginity!"

Where did you get that At DumbAss University?

Thats one of the Stupidest things ive heard in forever

Nothing on this planet changes Except By War
People in and of their own volition never do the Right thing
Wake up Asshole ...but of course you dont understand
that...

Dont you have a Protest Rally to go too

You and you Friends Can change the World with your
Cowardice

But thats a #ing World I dont Want to Live in

Piss OFF !!



Kegs

"It was terrorism, WMD's, and an immediate threat to the U.S. remember? "

I Agree and there was and is enough evidence to justify
Action Aginst Iraq


Iraqi Involvement in Palestinian Terrorism


There is no doubt that the Iraqi regime, led by Saddam Hussein, supports Palestinian terrorism. The Iraqis are so bold that they do not even attempt to deny their involvement in supporting and encouraging terrorist attacks, especially suicide bombings, against Israeli civilians.

Iraqi assistance comes in various forms, including the passage of funds to families of terrorists, training and directing terrorists and using propaganda to ensure that Palestinian society continues to support the armed conflict.

Iraq is vehemently opposed to any Palestinian, Arab or international political initiative aimed at ending the confrontation between Israelis and Palestinians. The Iraqi regime has a keen interest in the perpetuation and even escalation in the violence between the two sides.

First, Iraq’s blatant support for the continued armed conflict, i.e. terrorism, strengthens Hussein’s status in both Palestinian society and in the entire Arab world. In addition, when the world focuses on the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, it has less time to pay attention to Iraq. This allows the Iraqi regime to temporarily avoid the spotlight that has been placed upon them over the past few months.

Iraqi Prize Money
One of the central ways in which Saddam Hussein has supported Palestinian terrorism has been through providing financial rewards to families of terrorists who have been killed while perpetrating their attacks. The different amounts of prize money offered for different attacks illustrates the Iraqi regime’s preference to see more and more suicide bombings.

The Iraqis have mechanisms in place, that work in conjunction with the Palestinian Authority, to pay the families of suicide attackers US$25,000. Families of terrorists who are killed while carrying out their attacks receive US$10,000. These funds serve as an incentive for families to sacrifice their loved ones, as well as provide them with financial stability which they fail to enjoy during this time of conflict.

It has been estimated in the media that Iraq has thus far transferred more than US$20 million to families of Palestinian terrorists. This is done with the full cooperation of the Palestinian Authority.

The “Arab Liberation Front,” as well as the Iraqi Ba’ath party operating in PA areas serve as the “payment contractors” within the framework of this terrorism encouragement policy.

Terrorist operations
Another terrorist organization, the “Palestinian Liberation Front,” headed by Muhammad Zaydan (Abu al-Abbas), serves as an operational body for carrying out terrorist attacks against Israel. This is the same organization that carried out the terrorist attack aboard the Achile Lauro ship in 1986, in which Leon Klinghoffer, a wheelchair stricken U.S. citizen, was murdered.

Arrested PLF activists have confessed to having received military training in Iraq. They have been instructed to carry out attacks against both Israeli civilian and military targets. The PLF is responsible for the kidnapping and murder of 19-year old student Yuri Gushchin as well as the planting of an explosive device at the “Checkpoint” junction in Haifa.

Endless Incitement
Finally, the Iraqi regime incessantly uses propaganda to incite the Palestinians, and the rest of the Arab world, to eliminate the State of Israel. Stories and messages to the Palestinian public are literally “bought” in the Palestinian press. The propaganda isn’t limited to Israel, but is also directed at the United States and the rest of the Western democratic world.

Summary
Hussein stated on Iraqi television on March 4, 2002, “We are glad for the Istishhadiyyah [suicide bombers] and heroic spirit of the Palestinian people. By Allah, what the Palestinian people do is beyond my expectations…”

Combining comments like this with the infrastructure Iraq has built to give out prize money to families of terrorists, there is no doubt that Iraq is a prime player in the terrorist attacks against Israel.



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 03:41 PM
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Straterx, you do nothing to promote your cause/views by swearing at fellow members. It makes you sound like a child. Elevate yourself and articulate your ideas intelligently, rather than foolishly. Just a suggestion.

I know you'll probably attack me, too. But that's ok. I like the abuse.



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 03:52 PM
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To EastCoastKid

Thats good advice about joining the military
Combat will turn the bravest man into a coward
Many here prove this ..It makes you lose your conviction
Why ? because you place your life ahead of the Good of mankind..Dont Join A Military Group of any kind
Unless you can place the Future of ths World ahead of your own and you Believe in your Leaders


As far as the language goes thats deliberate
First he miss quoted me
Then he presumed to tell how to think
A Mistake he wouldnt make in person



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by straterx
To EastCoastKid

Thats good advice about joining the military
Combat will turn the bravest man into a coward Combat also makes the man wise beyond his liking.

Many here prove this ..It makes you lose your conviction It has strengthened my love for my country and resolve to tell the truth to anyone willing to listen.

Why ? because you place your life ahead of the Good of mankind..Dont Join A Military Group of any kind
Unless you can place the Future of ths World ahead of your own and you Believe in your LeadersThe purpose for the United States military is to protect our nation from enemies both foreign and domestic.


As far as the language goes thats deliberateIn some cases the foul language is funny, but in debate it is seen as a sign of intellectual weakness.

First he miss quoted me
Then he presumed to tell how to think
A Mistake he wouldnt make in personWhy are you so angry, Strat? No offense, just curious.



[Edited on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 04:08 PM
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Why Do you Fail To Understand

The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.



posted on Nov, 14 2003 @ 04:08 PM
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This abusive member is being dealt with. Sorry for the delay in reaction... thanks to a member that used the complaint feature we are now aware.





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