Why Is The Vatican Asking for a Reprieve Of Saddam Hussein?

Vatican, Catholic officials say "don't hang Saddam"
05 Nov 2006 18:27:29 GMT
Source: Reuters - /ya3jgv

By Philip Pullella

VATICAN CITY, Nov 5 (Reuters) - Vatican and Roman Catholic officials said on Sunday that former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein should not be put to death even if he has committed crimes against humanity because every life is sacred.

Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the Vatican's Council for Justice and Peace, said that carrying out the death sentence by hanging would be an unjustifiably vindictive action.

"For me, punishing a crime with another crime -- which is what killing for vindication is -- would mean that we are still at the point of demanding an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth," he was quoted as saying by Italian news agency Ansa.

Why?

I mean really? I know it is customary for the Pope and such to be forgiving and stuff,but really... For this guy? I don't think the people of Iraq owe him that respect.

We are talking about a man who not only held his people under a dictatorship,which is bad enough, but literally murdered untold numbers of them. Is this a man worthy of taking another breath? I mean really?

Not only that,is Islam still based on the whole "tooth for a tooth.Eye for an eye" doctrine? Should it surprise us that they are vindictive. Let them have their justice.

[edit on 6-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 6-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

All part of the coming one world religion.

Islam is not base on an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth. It is based on convert to Islam or they will take your eyes and teeth.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
All part of the coming one world religion.

Islam is not base on an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth. It is based on convert to Islam or they will take your eyes and teeth.

I have to say, that is the one post that you have made that I don't have an issue with. You are probably right, Matrix.

[edit on 6-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

the catholic church is supposedly 100% against the death penalty

tony blaire spoke out against giving him death

just because they don't want him dead, doesn't mean they're giving him a reprieve

also, who hangs people these days?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
All part of the coming one world religion.

Islam is not base on an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth. It is based on convert to Islam or they will take your eyes and teeth.

also, islam isn't like that
some people that follow islam are like that, but that's more of a socioeconomic issue than anything else

remember, when "christendom" was in an impoverished and ignorant state, it was very violent in conversion and supression of heretics

[edit on 11/6/06 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Vatican, Catholic officials say "don't hang Saddam"
05 Nov 2006 18:27:29 GMT
Source: Reuters - /ya3jgv

By Philip Pullella

VATICAN CITY, Nov 5 (Reuters) - Vatican and Roman Catholic officials said on Sunday that former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein should not be put to death even if he has committed crimes against humanity because every life is sacred.

Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the Vatican's Council for Justice and Peace, said that carrying out the death sentence by hanging would be an unjustifiably vindictive action.

"For me, punishing a crime with another crime -- which is what killing for vindication is -- would mean that we are still at the point of demanding an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth," he was quoted as saying by Italian news agency Ansa.

Why?

I mean really? I know it is customary for the Pope and such to be forgiving and stuff,but really... For this guy? I don't think the people of Iraq owe him that respect.

We are talking about a man who not only held his people under a dictatorship,which is bad enough, but literally murdered untold numbers of them. Is this a man worthy of taking another breath? I mean really?

Not only that,is Islam still based on the whole "tooth for a tooth.Eye for an eye" doctrine? Should it surprise us that they are vindictive. Let them have their justice.

I would like to ask you a question..

The people that are accusing him... have they not commited the same types of acts?

I would like to draw your attention to a television show on TLC.. Called the Monastery... There is a fellow named ALEX that was on the show...
He served in Iraq, ... he lost his leg.. sure... its HIS fault..
besides the blame game.. he went to the monastery to 'see' what its like..
He admits early in the program that he has a problem with authority or anyone telling him what to think ..
They ask him to participate in shaving his head, (all the visitors do it, except him)..
all in all he ended up stealing beer, drinking and smoking, listening to no rules...
his birthday comes up and he goes fishing with one of the monks..
and explains to the monk ...
"God made everyone for a reason, and I think he made me to do his dirty work"...
obviously meaning what he HAD to do in Iraq...
Its amazing Mr. Bush is giving all the 'children' a reason, to do what he wants.. and atributing it all to GOD...
But thats just a tangible example of the effects of war on people... people killing people, killing people.
He claimed that since he was no longer in the military, that it was no longer necessary for him to listen to anyone else... (perhaps he's been hurt? by lies?)

Saddam Hussein is just a human.

Do we really need a pope or church to teach us that?..

Sin is Sin period.. it perpuates more sin

Will/Has God forgiven Saddam?

If not - then will He forgive anyone else?

If so - then who are we to condemn another human being? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Matthew 18:21-35

Paul murdered many - his plea is for us to have mercy upon one another - just as God had mercy upon us.

Ephesians 4:31-32

Personally, I prayed that Saddam would find mercy, somehow - I applaud the Vatican for this example after Christ!

I kind of figured I'd be outnumbered on this one.

Let me ask you all something. If your whole family was wiped out by this man, save yourself, could you ever forgive this man? Answer honestly,please.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I kind of figured I'd be outnumbered on this one.

Let me ask you all something. If your whole family was wiped out by this man, save yourself, could you ever forgive this man? Answer honestly,please.

and yes, I am being completely honest...

I would forgive him... providing he understood why I was forgiving him.

I'd have to. Otherwise I would be a doomed hypocrite. I have forgive some pretty harsh things done directly to me, purely out of malice (as far as I could tell) - and I forgave. My friends and family thought me a fool - but I know it was right to forgive.

I know how much has been forgiven me; and my gratitude is unspeakable. I would not deny that to another soul - we are all fallible and blind human beings. ALL of us.

I don't think he should be given the death sentence.

Apart from my personal views on the death sentence,
those being that it's wrong.

If he's given the death sentence, after he gave his little
speech, he may becom a Martyr for those who follow
Extremeist Islam.

Better to have him live the rest of his days in a jail cell.

You know,I seem to hear this "give him life" a lot when it comes to criminals. Who do you suppose is going to support,not only Saddam, but thousands of other convicted murderers,here in this country and abroad, for the next 40-50 years? The innocent citizens do!!

I am not a big fan of the death penalty, not because I think it is wrong, but because I don't think it deters anything. A person that will take another's life is not likely to think much of his/her own. However,I also don't think it is feasible to "give them life" and the citizens continue to support them.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
You know,I seem to hear this "give him life" a lot when it comes to criminals. Who do you suppose is going to support,not only Saddam, but thousands of other convicted murderers,here in this country and abroad, for the next 40-50 years? The innocent citizens do!!

I am not a big fan of the death penalty, not because I think it is wrong, but because I don't think it deters anything. A person that will take another's life is not likely to think much of his/her own. However,I also don't think it is feasible to "give them life" and the citizens continue to support them.

The idea of life in jail is a horrible end to a problem we truly don't understand..
You really hit the nail on the head though...
If they didn't value another persons life, why would they value their own?

wow, very surprising of the Vatican to make such a decision.

I know its hard to believe in this day and age when alleged Christians are openly out for blood as of late. but the Pope should be the one asking for a reprieve as he is supposed to be an exmple for millions of Catholics. If he didn't say something he wouldn't be setting a very good example. We are supposed to follow the Commandments , not the code of Hammurabi.

Who are we to speak out and say they can't? Iraqi laws sentanced him to death and this should be final- if we butted our noses in yet again and said they couldn't what kind of example would that set the Iraqis who have faith in their new Government?

In my eyes we are there to assist the new Government, not butt into their policies and laws- if we did i'm sure an even greater resentment would build in the eyes of ordinary Iraqis.

[edit on 6-11-2006 by Knights]

I don't think he should be killed, simply because life is a very precious thing. But at the same time I also believe that our bodies are just a means for transportation in the physical world, so it's not like they are taking his soul. It is their decision, and we must respect that, if it were up to me, I'd hand him over to the people who he wronged and let them do as they wish with him. I wouldn't kill him, but it's not my decision.

Yes I would forgive him, probably not the moment it happened, but soon enough.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
remember, when "christendom" was in an impoverished and ignorant state, it was very violent in conversion and supression of heretics

No I don't remember that. I do remember the Roman Empire under Constantine the high priest of pagan sun worship taking control of the Christian movement and operating the Roman empire in the name of Christians. In the name of Christians they have killed the Jews, Gods chose people.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
remember, when "christendom" was in an impoverished and ignorant state, it was very violent in conversion and supression of heretics

No I don't remember that. I do remember the Roman Empire under Constantine the high priest of pagan sun worship taking control of the Christian movement and operating the Roman empire in the name of Christians. In the name of Christians they have killed the Jews, Gods chose people.

so you're going to use the "they weren't christians" argument....

regular muslims view extremists in the same light

and people, don't worry about saddam being seen as a martyr by extremist muslims, they hated his rule because he was a secularist

Following the shooting, Pope John Paul II asked people to "pray for my brother (Ağca), whom I have sincerely forgiven." In 1983, he and Ağca met and spoke privately at the prison where Ağca was being held. The Pope was also in touch with Ağca's family over the years, meeting his mother in 1987 and his brother a decade later.

Ağca was quoted as saying "To me [the Pope] was the incarnation of all that is capitalism."

In early February 2005, during the Pope's illness, Ağca sent a letter to the Pope wishing him well and also warning him that the world would end soon. When the Pope died on April 2, 2005, Ağca's brother Adnan gave an interview in which he said that Mehmet Ali and his entire family were grieving, and that the Pope had been a great friend to them. On April 5, 2005 CNN stated that Ağca would want to visit the Pope's funeral on April 8, 2005. However, Turkish authorities rejected his request to leave prison to attend

en.wikipedia.org...

Pope John Paul II certainly set an example of "turn the other cheek" when he forgave the man who attempted to assassinate him, Mehmet Ali Ağca. Forgiveness is, perhaps, one of the most intriguing and poignant aspects of Christianity as a philosophy. The power of forgiveness can be, as demonstrated in Mehmet Ali Ağca's case, almost miraculously disarming and transforming.

When Pope Benedict XVI made his comments about Islam, quoting Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos in asking what new has Islam brought about other "things inhuman and evil", the Pontiff caused a cry of outrage amongst Islamic clerics who considered the Pope's comments as being 'anti-Islamic'.

The lecture on "faith and reason", with references ranging from ancient Jewish and Greek thinking to Protestant theology and modern Secularity, focused mainly on Christianity and what Pope Benedict called the tendency to "exclude the question of God" from reason. Islam features in a part of the lecture: the Pope quoted strong criticism of Islam, which he described as being of a "startling brusqueness, a brusqueness which leaves us astounded".

In three paragraphs at the beginning of the speech, Pope Benedict quoted from and discussed an argument made by the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos in a 1391 dialogue with an "educated Persian" (who remained unnamed in the Pope's lecture), as well as observations on this argument made by Theodore Khoury, the scholar whose edition of Manuel II's dialogues the Pontiff was referencing. Pope Benedict used Manuel II's argument in order to draw a distinction between the Christian view, as expressed by Manuel II, that "not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature", and an Islamic view, as explained by Khoury, that God transcends concepts such as rationality, and his will, as Ibn Hazm stated, is not constrained by any principle, including rationality.

In part of his explication of this distinction, Pope Benedict referred to a specific aspect of Islam that Manuel II considered irrational, namely the practice of forced conversion. Specifically, the Pope (making clear that they were the Emperor's words, not his own) quoted Manuel II Palaiologos as saying: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only bad and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." The Pontiff was comparing the Quranic passage that "There is no compulsion in religion" with an allegedly later one that, according to Manuel II, allowed "spreading the faith through violence"; the latter teaching being offered by Pope Benedict as an unreasonable one, on the belief that religious conversion should take place through the use of reason. His larger point here was that, generally speaking, in Christianity, God is understood to act in accordance with reason, while in Islam, God's absolute transcendence means that "God is not bound even by his own word", and can act in ways contrary to reason, including self-contradiction. At the end of his lecture, the Pope said, "It is to the great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures." en.wikipedia.org...

By seeking to forgive Saddam Hussein and by calling for Saddam's death penalty to be overturned, Pope Benedict XVI is clearly demonstrating Christian virtues. It is certainly Christian to offer forgiveness and, furthermore, it is certainly most Christian to value the sanctity of life. But what the Pope is also expressing is the rationality of the teachings of Christ. That there can be no disparity between God's actions and of God's word. So it should be in the policies, teachings and actions of His Church, of Christianity.

Yes, this has not always been the case with Christianity. The history of Christianity is filled with blood and violence but these events are now viewed as being in "error". The rejection of the philosophical errors of Christianity's past is certainly to be applauded. The Pope is being exemplary in acting as Christ Himself would act. Would not Christ, if He were here today, not ask for clemency for Saddam?

The Pope is simply acting in accordance to the teachings of Christ...."Forgive them Father for they know not what they do"......after all, as they say; "to error is human, to forgive...divine".

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
remember, when "christendom" was in an impoverished and ignorant state, it was very violent in conversion and supression of heretics

No I don't remember that. I do remember the Roman Empire under Constantine the high priest of pagan sun worship taking control of the Christian movement and operating the Roman empire in the name of Christians. In the name of Christians they have killed the Jews, Gods chose people.

so you're going to use the "they weren't christians" argument....

regular muslims view extremists in the same light

No, I'm going to use the truth. The pagan Roman Empire that tried in vain to kill all the Christians and when failing simply took over by backing the Bishops of Rome and forming the Catholic Church. You should be able to see that. The Vatican has yet to recognize the Nation of Israel. That should tell you something.

There is a huge difference in your Christian and Muslim comparison. A Christian would not do what the Roman Empire did in the name of Christianity. That is why the Roman Church is Mystery Babylon in the Bible.

A so called extremeist muslim would be doing exactly what the Koran says to do by attempting to take over the world for Allah. An fundamentalist Christian is who I want living next door.