Anyone Know of a Good Antidote for Chemtrails?

Originally posted by PisTonZOR
Yes they did. Look at pictures of World war B-17s in giant formations over germany.

Well feel free to bring me pictures where the entire sky as far as the eye can see is covered with contrails hours after the planes have left the scene...

Yes they did. Look at pictures of World war B-17s in giant formations over germany.
That KLM 777 that was accused of chemspraying was delivered in March this year. That is a brand new 777-200ER, with no major checks or maintainence.

So basically your now suggesting that you know exactly how the new planes are man ufactured and what they might have installed or not installed? Do you know how long it would take to install whatever is required to release the materials in question? I have no idea and i would obviously like to know if you have some kind of inside information....

So, that plane cannot have been modified for chemspraying.

Based on your knowledge of what?

And two, no unmodified Boeing 777 has holes in them in order to spray chemicals.

Why do there need to be holes in the Boeing 777 to do what we can observe at least some of them doing? Where did this 'hole' idea come from and who told you about it?

If they did:
The 65000 people at Boeing are lying,

So does that mean that Boeing employs 65 000 aircraft engineers and designers? Well i had no idea but feel free to tell me how many of those 65 000 would actually be in a position to understand what modifications might enable the plane to do. I will be as bold as to suggest that the number would not be more than a few dozen who actually needs to change to design specifications as all the rest on the production and modification cycle can simply be lied to. That all being said what gives you the idea that what we see would require major modification of civil aircraft or that civil aircraft are as a norm involved? You are , interestingly, presuming far more than i am.

General Electric are lying,

General electric is very much involved in the defense industry and filled with a number ex military people or those who worked in the defense industry so if they wanted to keep a secret i will presume they can. That is not even considering how much of America's press and media they have stakes in.

Boeing partners are lying,

Boeing would go bankrupt ( some say it is) in mere months without government contracts and swearing them to secrecy ( as much as that would be required considering the ex establishment and military people involved) should be easy to do considering their complete dependence on arms contracts.

the FAA is lying,

Only need to look at what happened on 9-11 if you have trouble understanding how this agency can be made to lie or cover up certain things. Why does the FAA need to be involved anyways as their flight plans can just be used to make sure the unmanned military drones wont get in the way....

maintainence at all major airports are lying, and if it were so,

Why presume they are landing at major airports or maintained by regular people not knowingly involved in the cover up. Remember that i said i do not believe this is aimed at hurting Americans in general but to prevent and or keep track of weather modification by foreign governments as Cohen said? The average grunts involved in these secret plots normally believe they are doing it for the greater good anyways so why do you have such a hard time with this? Compared to the scale of other cover up's that we know are in effect and fooling 99.9% of the worlds population this is a small issue.

I'd be lying as I know just about every thing about the 777, and have done a personal walk around.

And once again 'personal experience' trumps observed reality when the reality does not fit with the assumed experience. Those pictures were interesting but you must have noticed the question mark i included as i was not entirely sure that those colours can not be explained in more mundane ways. For you to think that my belief in 'chem trial's' rest on those first two pics says far more about your deluded disrespectful approach to discussion than it does about my mental state or convictions. If you can not or will not attempt to 'explain' the vast majority of the pictures i linked to don't for one moment believe that your general denial, based on extremely small subset of the data, will even slow down my investigation.

All you have made obvious so far is what you want to believe while it should be obvious to everyone that i do not want to believe anything specific and will go where observed reality leads me. The chem trail issue is of no great consequence to my world view but i wont stand for the vapid denial of reality that goes on here either.

Stellar


[edit on 11-11-2006 by StellarX]

I may not be able to predict what days these streams will appear, but being right next to Dulles International Airport in Dulles, VA, I see flights at all altitudes coming and going ALL DAY LONG. They use the same flight paths - every single time.

I see the flight paths for the larger commercial airliners and I see the separate flight path for the smaller, private craft. And these craft leave short lived contrails if anything at all. I rarely, rarely see a contrail persisting more than a few minutes. And that is completely natural and is consistent with what I have seen my entire life.

NOW, on particular days, which acutally is about every other day, sometimes with two or three days in between, I see "different" aircraft (and don't ask me to identify markings - I mean aircraft I don't identify with regular airport traffic), several of them, frequently travelling on a low flight path outside the airport regular traffic paths, and these craft leave persistent trails (30 minutes to an hour or more) every time, without fail, that spread out across the sky AND BLOCK THE SUN.

This very simple observation does not take a scientist to form a conclusion. My simple conclusion is that these craft are not regular commercial airtraffic, because these aircraft use a flight path that is not used by any other craft. My assumption is that an aircraft using a flight path other than that reserved for commercial aircraft must be government or military. A flight controller can clarify that for me, but until then that is my assumption.

Beyond that, it is plain to see that these "different" aircraft are leaving the only really persistent trails in the sky. A child could recognize this. Now, I can photograph these streams, but without being a real-time eyewitness, anyone looking at a still photograph of these streams would ask me what the concern is. I don't blame them, but from my perspective on the ground witnessing these things, it's quite clear what I'm looking at. And it's something I haven't seen before in my life.

This may or may not be related, but I caught a cold this past Wednesday afternoon, Nov. 8. At about 2:15pm I had a sore throat. By 4:30 I was congested and very fatigued. I was falling asleep behind the wheel on the way home.

By Thursday I was really sick. I called in sick to work. I've been on a regiment of fruit and vegetable juices, vitamins, full meals and plenty of sleep. I've been really hungry - starving for food. For the most part, this has felt like a head cold, but there are a couple of differences.

First, I'm not sleeping. Second, since Friday, I've been walking around in a state of nausea. This has never happened before. Ever. As I type this I am nauseated. When I woke up Friday I decided to go to work. Friday afternoon I was sitting at my desk and felt dizzy, lightheaded and sick to my stomach. Very naseated. This is the first time I can recall every feeling like this - with a head cold OR the flu. I have had a very clean health record, and rarely get sick. That was until about 1998 onward. This was an observation I made before I'd even considered aircraft emissions as an oddity - and mind you, I am not making a connection here.

What I'm experiencing is dehydration. Serious dehydration, accompanied by dizziness and nausea that will not go away. You know when you've been drinking all night and the next day you feel hot and thirsty and can't sweat (too detailed?)? yeah. I've also had a strange taste in my mouth, like metal, or something almost acidic. Hospitals in this area (Northern VA/DC) are reporting an influx of patients with "Flu-like" symptoms. A friend said there is some bacterial thing going around, maybe a stomach flu, but nothing's been identified. More and more of these bizarre illnesses are being reported every year. It seems the trend is getting worse. If you do some research, I'm sure you'll see the numbers growing around the world (where statistics can be found: U.S.? UK?) . My concern is that just recently, around the world, clinics are reporting patients with flu-like symptoms, but are not isolating the source, and they are not able to determine what it is. This is frightening.

So, I've been walking around feeling very sick. I read that people experience similar, if not the exact, same symptoms as a result of radio wave sickness, or being too close to cell phone towers, or similar equipment (I've posted some of this information in a previous post). I can imagine that what I'm feeling may feel the exact same way. It's been suggested that this ELF, or Infrasonic, or microwave technology can induce symptoms in people that almost mirror symptoms of known illnesses, like these.

Because of how rotten I feel, I have to wonder if this originated from something unusual - and I mean that to mean, is this a new strain of something, or did this originate from a technological source, either as a byproduct, or by intention? The sensation is that this is focused on my head - just a general dizziness, lightheadedness, and nausea, although my thinking is still clear (well, I'll let you be the judge of that). It's also strange to note that for the first day or so I was starving. But now that the nausea has set in, I'm not so interested in eating...(well, strange may not be the word as they are mutually exclusive sensations...hehe)

I don't know. And I'm not saying chemtrails. But this is the first time in my life I've felt like this, and it is a horrible feeling. I have friends at Exxon Mobile who have been prompted by the CDC, or the World Health Organization, or similar organization to prepare for an epidemic that could cost them half of their work force. They're talking about an unknown virus or disease that would debilitate, or even kill an individual. And this company is taking it dead serious.

If you are feeling similar symptoms, or a friend or loved one is, my thoughts are with you. I've already had two friends stricken with this same illness, and it takes a toll mentally and physically. I have been driven to consume large amounts of water, which I'm hoping is still clean. If not, I'm done. If there's something in tap water that is exacerbating this, I'm done. I would advise drinking water, however, and fruit juice, vegetable juice, and gatorade. Good luck!

If my symptoms become more severe, and there are some sadists out there I'd be happy to share them. If I die of course, I can't promise I'll be able to post right away.



[edit on 11-11-2006 by OnTheDeck]

Have you ever considering looking at the traffic around you with flightaware.com? You would be surprised as the massive amount of traffic on the east coast. You would also be surprised how much traffic there is going from the east coast to Europe, that is going to be flying in that same area up the coast.

flightaware.com...

You can click on a larger version of the map too. You cant expect that every day, that every airport is going to be using the same arrival procedures. Large airports like that often have dozens of arrival procedures for IFR traffic, that depends what direction the planes are coming from, and also for what runways are being used that day.

You are going to see variance in where you see aircraft from day to day, nothing sinister about it.

Originally posted by Imperium Americana
Steller X
I would first start by asking: “You are kidding right?” But given the scope of your post, I would, sadly, conclude that you are serious.

I scanned your post and this seems to be just about the only conclusion based on something worth calling 'serious'.

First I would challenge you to take your argument to a forum that caters to pilots of all kinds. (Avweb, Flightinfo, etc).

The pilots view from a commercial aircraft is very limited indeed and according to what i have read few pilots spend any percentage of the time looking outside anyways. I do not think this has much or anything to do with commercial planes so it would not help me if i spent more time on such forums than i already do. That being said this is a physics matter and thus not something that can be changed by having a pilots license or flight experience.

I would not suggest you dive in with a post such as yours, the flaming would be merciless.

Thanks for the warning but my experience on public message boards is quite extensive and i know how to deal with ignorance and personal attacks...

You will see that there are no threads dedicated to “Chem-Trails”. Ask yourself, “Why are there no threads dedicated to this subject?”

Why are there so few threads about much much bigger scams that costs millions of lives every year? Dont appeal to consensus or scale to try shoot down things you do not want to consider.

A project of the size and scale you advocate would not escape the attention of a group who’s very lives depend on their ability to notice any abnormalities.

Till not very long ago maritime science refused to consider the tales of seamen about freak waves to be true at all till we started picking them up on radar. Never let official pronouncements by officials with vested interests convince you of something you have not seriously investigated on your own. Why would pilots be interested in chem trails anyways; what threat is it to them when it's a independent probably military group doing it?

Remember that many of the pilots on these sites have been flying since they were teens. If the “conspiracy” was as large as you advocate, they would have noticed by now.

Once again there are far larger conspiracies in evidence today affecting many more than the chem trail issue does and those seem to be suppressed rather well. Stop appealing to higher authorities because you lack a rigorous defense of your own.

Pay attention to the hiring boards. If a project was afoot to spray every single day massive portions of the US, then the crew requirements would mean that there would be a dip in the size of pilots that are looking for jobs. Look at it this way: Say on any given day 100 “sprayers” are over the US, what would be the crew requirements. Well assuming that they only spray during the day you would have 8-12 hours per aircraft. With 100 aircraft you could have 200 pilots (Capt. and F.O.) for a combined daily total of 1,600-2,400 flight hours.

It would obviously be a military operation in my opinion ( as careful study of the chem trails 'flights' reveals that they do not appear to show up on flight explorer ) and thus subject to military secrecy laws if the planes/drones are manned at all. Why assume those are manned airplanes anyways and why assume the people, if any, involved do not keep it a secret because they think it's a national security matter or generally ' in the countries best interest'? There are so many ways to explain it and yet you ramble on trying to attack a straw man structure i never erected.

Now for any given month that would mean 48,000-72,000 flight hours. Again I remind you that we are only talking about 100 aircraft flying during daylight hours only! For a given year the operational flight hours would be 576,000-864,000. WOW!!! If we assume that there are operations at night, we could be talking about over ONE MILLION HOURS!
Now let us look at

Once again your assuming whatever helps your mind to dismiss what everyone can observe in their skies. It probably involves many more aircraft than you suggest her so feel free to include a few more thousand pilots just for kicks.

So the “secret air force sprayers” would need at least 576-864 pilots on staff. But wait there is more!!!
Since FAR limits you to 100 hours per month, you would have to figure in additional pilots as a reserve (say 1,000-1,200 total pilots).

As i said you can make it 10 000 pilots if you like as that would hardly change what we see happening. Appealing to a scale you can not comprehend hardly invalidates observation and reality. If your mind can not deal with what you see stop looking but don't dismiss what you do see.

The website you primarily referred to, mentions hundreds of flights per day and night time operations. To do this would increase the pilot roster into the thousands. Think about that….how the heck could you keep that quiet.

The same way they managed to drop more tonnage of bombs on Laos during the Vietnam era than one Germany during the second world war. Each pilot had to falsify his logs and the fact that it led to maybe a half a million deaths certainly did not bring it to light any sooner. If you are ready to invoke certain laws and restrictions on your personal and threaten them with court action or 'accidental death' it's surprising what you can manage on men already selected for their state of mind. By selectively picking men it's surprising what kind of crimes you can have them commit in almost complete secrecy and if you can convince them that they are in fact doing it for the good of their country they enforce the secrecy themselves. That being said the Pentagon is not sure where 2 odd trillion dollars ( 2000 billion; they say the pc's can not properly communicate with each other ) went and for that kinda money you could probably hole out 10 mountains all over America , build thousand of four engine drones and automate the whole launching/recovery/maintenance/refueling cycle so that you may need mere dozens of people involved at each location. What i proposed here is in fact nothing all that weird if one considers the almost complete control of the American media and all the distractions offered to American citizens to keep their minds off reality.

When these pilots leave the “secret chem.-trail air force”, how do they log their time? If these guys were going civil, they are going to want that time (time=exp.=money). You don’t think that would attract attention? Or is that part of the conspiracy as well?

Your problem is that you have not investigated history and have no inkling of the massive conspiracies of the past with which to compare this small almost insignificant one. If your understanding of reality is so limited by your ignorance of history ( and your not at all alone ) it's no surprise that you have such trouble dealing with what you see happening. Why do you presume any pilots involved? Remote control of commercial aircraft have been possible since the late 60's or early 70's.

And what about the ATC. You don’t think the controllers would not notice the hundreds of planes flying in and out of their airspace.

They would but they regularly see planes flying somewhere with a military 'tag' on it's empty flight plan.. They have no business questioning what is happening as it's simply not their job to.

How would you keep them quite. We are not talking about a random UFO event here but an everyday occurrence.

If they want to keep their jobs they will not talk about military( which happens every day) flights whatever they may want to think about it.

And yet there no stories from pilots, no stories from ATC, and not to mention there are no stories from MX and A/P personnel. Why is that?

There are stories from pilots and there are stories from ATC and from all the rest. The fact that it seems to be so few should tell you that this system is not dependent on commercial or civilian infrastructure at all and may or may not be visible on ATC radar screens. It's not hard to imagine how it happens but if you do not want to consider it it's easy to find excuses that will make it seem almost impossible.

Wanna guess why? Because “Chem-Trails” are BS. I know…I know…don’t listen to me. Go ask an ALPA member what they think.

You have every right to your opinion but i think i have made it clear that i do not think your opinion is based on a understanding of history or the people involved. 'Secrets' that dwarf this one have been kept for centuries from far larger numbers of people.

BTW I hope you do not interpret my post as a flame, because I do not mean it that way. I just think most “Chems” have no understanding of commercial aviation…or they have a chemical imbalance. LOL (I keed…I keed).

As i said i realise that what you know simply does not allow for something of the this magnitude to happen without your knowledge. It is this type of self assumed arrogance( "The limits of my knowledge is the limits of reality" ) that is the bane of humanity and why i have come to realise that we may very well deserve much of what we get.

Continued

[edit on 11-11-2006 by StellarX]

[edit on 11-11-2006 by StellarX]

Your post speaks volumes as to the lenghts some will go to deny what others consider reality simply because it does not fit into yours. It's also striking that you will use the word empire but think only in terms of offensive weapons and not what a empire might do in defense of their industrial base when such is threatened by forces they can not admit to publicly. I have in the past shown what i consider to be almost overwhelming evidence that Russia today holds a clear and massive strategic advantage over America .This might all be news to you but imagine what you would could do with that 2000 billion dollars if you wanted to defend your country without admitting the fact that you have long lost the strategic power your leadership was based on. Can America's rapid economic decline be explained in simpler and more historically realistic ways than the loss of strategic dominance?

Well i am open to suggestions but i don't imagine i will get much other than derision and empty denials considering how well you think your country is doing despite all the obvious problems some research would reveal. Before you attack or deny out of hand what i have said about the decline of America do check out some of the information i have provided in the following threads:

ttp://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread144543/pg1

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

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www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

What i have said earlier seem very strange, or even crazy, but i can assure you that i do not leap to conclusions and that i have spent a great deal of time reading and putting together a credible body of evidence to defend even the strangest seeming claim i make on ATS...

Stellar

"They would but they regularly see planes flying somewhere with a military 'tag' on it's empty flight plan.. They have no business questioning what is happening as it's simply not their job to."

Who do you think provides Air Traffic Control for military jets over the US? Its the FAA, who does the same thing for civilian aircraft. There is no second air traffic control agency for mil aircraft. Of course they have access to the information and flight plan.

Your post is full of stuff that is still no evidence for chemtrails, just lots of stuff that has no relation, such as B-52s flying over Laos, does nothing to proof some vast aerial spraying conspiracy.

Still, no one has even tried to state why contrails MUST disappear quickly. We are waiting.

Neither will anyone state where these planes are based, what kind they are, or what airlines are involved.

Well feel free to bring me pictures where the entire sky as far as the eye can see is covered with contrails hours after the planes have left the scene...

I Don't have any pictures of lingering Contrails after a B-17 has left. However, I have shown you a picture of very long Contrails, which look like what you call Chemtrails. If they wern't fine.

You said this:

And you will see the planes within view as the contrails normally last 5-30 seconds when they form at all. Contrails do NOT last many hours.

Them pictures I linked you to obviously had lasted for much longer than 30 seconds.

Many aircraft also fly the same route, this can produce layers and layers and layers of lingering contrails which may appear to be strange. Wind can blow these 10 minute old contrails sideways. Then a new jet will pass over the same route as the old jet. This pattern of events produces these:

So basically your now suggesting that you know exactly how the new planes are manufactured and what they might have installed or not installed?

Yes, exactly.

Based on your knowledge of what?

Based on my knowledge that the plane wasn't built with Chemspraying equipment and that 777 hasn't gone through any C or D checks which would be required to install something large, such as Chemspraying equipment.

A and B checks are overnight, far to short to add a bunch of tanks to an aircraft then test them.

Why do there need to be holes in the Boeing 777 to do what we can observe at least some of them doing? Where did this 'hole' idea come from and who told you about it?

I don't know who told me about it, but someone did. I beleive it was in another thread when someone showed me that picture of the KLM 777. They suggested that there must be holes in the wings which spray chemicals.

So does that mean that Boeing employs 65 000 aircraft engineers and designers?

No. But it does mean that Boeing has thousands of people who have an acute understanding of jets.

Well i had no idea but feel free to tell me how many of those 65 000 would actually be in a position to understand what modifications might enable the plane to do.

The few thousand people who work at KPAE and KBFI would most likely know.

General electric is very much involved in the defense industry and filled with a number ex military people or those who worked in the defense industry so if they wanted to keep a secret i will presume they can. That is not even considering how much of America's press and media they have stakes in.

Maybe. But the GE-90 is civilian and has no link to defence industries. Also what about RR and PW?

Boeing would go bankrupt ( some say it is) in mere months without government contracts and swearing them to secrecy ( as much as that would be required considering the ex establishment and military people involved) should be easy to do considering their complete dependence on arms contracts.

Boeing is far from bankruptcy. There revenue went up $54.845 billion USD last year. This year and last year are both amazing years for Boeing.

Why does the FAA need to be involved anyways as their flight plans can just be used to make sure the unmanned military drones wont get in the way....

Maybe because the FAA is heavily involved in the certification process of all Commercial Airliners. They know EVERYTHING about jets and in certification they test ALL parts. They also know what airlines do to maintain them, and what, if any, modifications have taken place.

Why presume they are landing at major airports or maintained by regular people not knowingly involved in the cover up.

Because KLM 777s land at public airports. MX (maintenance) also aren't just working conformist ants. Most are heavily interested in jets, and if they discovered strange tanks on jets the whole world would know about it.

For you to think that my belief in 'chemtrial's' rest on those first two pics says far more about your deluded disrespectful approach to discussion than it does about my mental state or convictions.

How am I deluded? I have never said anything disrespectful here. If I have, point me to it and I will not do it again.

Your post speaks volumes as to the lenghts some will go to deny what others consider reality simply because it does not fit into yours.

I am not denying what others think is real. I am saying Chemtrails aren't true in reality, not what they beleive in isn't true. Also what lengths am I going to? Sorry, but you're accusing me being deluded and disrespectful. That's a far greater lengths than doing what I'm doing (Proving a bunch of points wrong).

If you can not or will not attempt to 'explain' the vast majority of the pictures i linked to don't for one moment believe that your general denial, based on extremely small subset of the data, will even slow down my investigation.

I will explain them. Give me a moment, we are having blackouts so I will just click post so this won''t be lost.

[edit on 12-11-2006 by PisTonZOR]

Originally posted by PisTonZOR
I'm not insulting anyone, and I'm debunking false facts. I think there is a possibility that chemtrails exist, however I hate false rumours getting spread around, then being reused 50 times when they're one thing; FALSE!

Well i am glad you are at least open minded enough to consider the possibility....

You claim they aren't commercial aircraft, and that's a KLM airlines 777, obviously past 30000 feet, because 777s never cruise at 30000 feet, and the sky is way to dark for it to be under 30000feeet.

I claimed that it was not imo a civil operation in the USA ( where most of this is happening) but that might be different in Europe. My question was if these colours were the norm for civilian airliner 'contrails' as it just does not look that way to me. I ask because i am not expert and have far more questions than answers.

Holdings pattern, AWACS?

So can a civil airliner turn in that type of circle and why not bother with the odd colours i referred to? Are they not odd in your opinion and if so can you provide more pictures of the same in European skies before the date of that picture?

Same jetway, same VOR, sameAPP, some STAR, same SID?

I understand that the flights might be 'connected' or that they might be on approach or might still be under ATC direct control but is that really the explanation or just one of the possibilities?

Diferant altitude making them look like they're in formation? A simple A.net search will show you them.

Maybe and yet even when you attempt answers your not offering my anything more solid than what i could come up with. If i ask questions and you can add nothing but more possibilities that's not exactly helpful to your 'cause'.

Yes. What are you suggesting? A KLM 777 with 440 people on board is doing barrel roles?

Well since i know at least a few things about civil airlines i did not propose that that was the case as that may lead people to believe that they only allow me on the asylum PCs this time of the day. It was a serious question and if you want to joke around instead of help me to pin down more likely and mundane explanations your not contributing.

Already explained.

Well you proposed possible/likely solutions for five out of sixty images and if that's how much 'evidence' you need to dismiss the rest of the pictures , which i will assume you have no answers to, i think it's clear that your intent was not investigation but out of hand dismissal from the start.

LMAO! One plane is a Md80, the other is a twin, maybe a 767 or 777.
That was easy.

Would you hazard a guess as to why they are so close to each other or is that not relevant? Why do so many of these planes cross paths at the exact places where there are clear and extreme wind shear forces at work?

Stellar

I've got the cure for chemtrails.

A little THC. Smoking marijuana (preferrebly through a vapourizer as it eliminates all health risks) is a good way to offset the damage done by chemtrails. I've heard chems is an attempt to weaken our lungs and immune systems to the coming bird flu. I wouldn't doubt.

Marijauna is healthier then smoking tobacco and drinking alcohol. Justbecause the two fromer are legal doesn't mean they are healthy.

Unlike tobbaco marijuana doesn't constrict your lungs and blood cells and it actually expands the red blood cells. Thats really good for you.

It's like sex in a way with the circulation system. Sex is the most healthy activity you could ever do.

Originally posted by firepilot
Who do you think provides Air Traffic Control for military jets over the US? Its the FAA, who does the same thing for civilian aircraft.

Your quite wrong if you think all aircraft on a ATC screen are 'identified' in the normal commercial traffic sense. They FAA send all their data and military flights that want to be kept classified are simply routed around those.

There is no second air traffic control agency for mil aircraft. Of course they have access to the information and flight plan.

There is in America separate agencies for everything under the sun and you must be mad to think that the military will willing give the FFA flight records of all military missions.

Your post is full of stuff that is still no evidence for chemtrails, just lots of stuff that has no relation,

The more ignorant one is the harder one finds it to connect facts. If you do not understand the relationships between the things i talk about do ask but please do not in your ignorance assume they are not connected.

such as B-52s flying over Laos, does nothing to proof some vast aerial spraying conspiracy.

Well actually it does as there was a deliberate effort to hide from public view the murder of hundreds of thousands by falsification of flight logs and everything related to those operations. If they could do that so many decades ago what can they manage today with easily changed electronic logs taking over everywhere?

Still, no one has even tried to state why contrails MUST disappear quickly. We are waiting.

It's physics and i suggest you familiarise yourself with the field.

Neither will anyone state where these planes are based, what kind they are, or what airlines are involved.

Because the nature of a conspiracy dictates that people such as ourselves do not have all the answers to our questions. Do you really believe i would be here asking questions if i had this all figured out? Do you have actual questions or is this it?

You are clearly the type of person that wont believe a thing before the president of the USA has made a public declaration; no matter if it's true or not.

Stellar

The aircraft are KC stratotankers and Constellations. Look in the sky with good binoculars and see for yourselves for those who don't believe.

Contrails and chemtrails are obvious to distinguish. Contrails don't stay in the air very long as oppsed to chemtrails.

I have a few sites that are really promoting Orgone energy as an antidote to both chemtrail and cell phone mast radiation.

Here is a statement from one individual in Connecticut (link):

Within two hours of pouring the first gallon of polymer resin and metal shavings , I had three mysterious white planes doing a search pattern over my house along with one orb and a disk craft. Four days later and after the seccond gallon of matrix poured into bucket, I am observing the air being swept clean of EVERYTHING: no contrails from airliners, and when chemtrails arive from the west....bada bing within 20 minutes, gone!

He mentions seeing an orb, as well as what he calls a "disk craft" along with these streams. He also mentions,

I also wish to report that decloaked chemsprayers are or appear to be tandem cubes as reported by others. I have other eye witnesses to the sky events including chemsprayers appearing, dissappearing and decloaked. These silent running white planes are not planes at all in my opinion...

He mentions "tandem cubes" and "cloaked" craft, which is consistent with what has been observed and reported at Orbwar.com. This page shows photos of this in action.

This link also shows the phenomena of orbs accompanying chemtrail streams. (same link)

Here is a link to a site with photos of an invisible (you can use the word "cloaked" if you want) aircraft spraying a stream. I'm sure this is the result of condensation or ice crystals... ... ... NOT (Borat). Conventional aircraft are not invisible, and I challenge anyone to find photos of invisible conventional aircraft (and don't offer a photo of blue sky and say there's a plane hiding there).

Here is a link to a site with a photo of a black beam being aimed right at the Atlantis Space Shuttle in 2001. It looks like it's coming from the vicinity of the moon, but it could actually be originating from a satellite, or far side of the Earth.

This is all just to point out that something bizarre IS going on, we are just on a learning curve to figuring out exactly what it is.

Look at all of the government and military agencies that have visited Carnicom's site (below). The list is over a hundred and probably growing. Is this attention prompted by a conspiracy nutjob? He's getting some serious attention.

1. Desert Research Institute in Nevada (weather modification research institution) (repeat visits)
2. Fort Lewis Army Military Base in the state of Washington (home of special forces air squadron)
3. Lockheed Martin (aviation and space defense contractor) (repeat visits)(repeat repeat visits)
4. Los Alamos National Laboratory (repeat visit)
5. Allergan Pharmaceutical Corporation (Allergy Pharmaceutical Research Company)
6. Alliant Techsystems (Space and Strategic Defense Systems contractor)
7. Raytheon Defense Systems (Defense Contractor) (repeat visit)(repeat repeat visit)(repeat repeat repeat visit)
8. BOEING AIRCRAFT COMPANY (100 visits minimum)
9. United States Defense Logistics Agency (supplies and support to combat troops)
10. Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Tuscon AZ (home of 355th Wing)(repeat visits)(repeat repeat visits)(repeat repeat repeat visit)
11. Dept of Defense Naval Computer and Telecommunications Area Master Station
12. U.S. Naval Sea Systems Command
13. Western Pacific Region of the Federal Aviation Administration, Lawndale CA. (repeat visit)(repeat visit) (repeat visit)
14. National Aeronautics and Space Administration Langley Research Center (10 visits minimum)

Carnicom notes:

Let it also be noted that United States government computer systems are to be used for official purposes only.

Rense.com has listed the same visitors list - link.

This is a must read article on the subject of chemtrails. It is part of a larger agenda. This article cites very credible outside sources.

This article is just as critical to help get a full picture of what's going on. Very compelling and disturbing read.

I wanted to provide more information on orgone and its uses here. Mind you there may be a verifiable, effective and practical use with regard to aerial spraying and ELF/radio wave radiation, but this subject is somewhat "alternative"; i.e., whether it's meant as disinformation, or to drive people from this technology (I use the term loosely), you will come across some more outrageous claims, such as these devices can counter evil, etc. This is up to you to decide. The proof's in the pudding.

Here is a direct link to an audio file wherein Sherry Shriner (I'll post a link to her site below) mentions that some of the people offering designs for these orgone devices may be offering bogus, or harmful versions of the device. I offer this, because the possibility of being mislead is very real - and I accept that could mean Sherry's version is included in this (I'll link to hers as well).

Sherry's orgone device (link). Sherry's website (link). Many of these are for sale, but there is enough info, including Sherry's site, to build your own.

Orgone on Educate-yourself.org.

Orgone, a brief history.

Here's a link to "CTBusters!". Do these work? If the chemtrails disappear over the device, then it's very possible.

Here is Don Croft's Cloudbuster.

People using Don's CB review it (link).

Orgonise Africa (link)

Put the device and not the person to the test.


[edit on 12-11-2006 by OnTheDeck]

Originally posted by StellarX
I scanned your post and this seems to be just about the only conclusion based on something worth calling 'serious'.

Yeah, you would.

The pilots view from a commercial aircraft is very limited …
….That being said this is a physics matter and thus not something that can be changed by having a pilots license or flight experience.

See this is where you show your general ignorance on the subject. What do you think pilots are doing enroute? While there are times both pilots are “head down” there is still plenty of time spent scanning. Every time ATC gives a traffic alert or TCAS chirps eyes scan.
And yes this is a physics matter. Since you need a refresher I suggest playing around with this contrail simulator, it will help you understand the basics. Once you have got that under control I suggest you do some more research.

Thanks for the warning but my experience on public message boards is quite extensive and i know how to deal with ignorance and personal attacks...
Why are there so few threads about much much bigger scams that costs millions of lives every year? Dont appeal to consensus or scale to try shoot down things you do not want to consider.

LOL you are giving me a lecture on informal fallacies? LOL Your whole “chem trails” theory is nothing more than Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc with a touch of Ad Ignorantiam. And FYI if anything you would accuse me of Ad Verecundiam, not Ad Populum.

Till not very long ago maritime science refused to consider the tales of seamen about freak waves to be true at all till we started picking them up on radar. Never let official pronouncements by officials with vested interests convince you of something you have not seriously investigated on your own.

Frankly the history of rogue waves is irrelevant to the subject at hand, but since you brought it up…might I remind you that they were well known to mariners for generations. One the other hand “chem trails” are ridiculed not just by scientists but by aviators themselves. Maybe you could come up with another analogy.

Why would pilots be interested in chem trails anyways; what threat is it to them when it's a independent probably military group doing it?

Once again… irrelevant. Pilots tend to be a dedicated profession. Abnormalities are always noted, failure to develop this ability is not a “healthy” thing in aviation.
You have repeatedly shown in this thread that you have no knowledge of aviation, or if you prefer a very minimal knowledge. In light of this, I guess I should not be surprised by comments, such as the one above. You might be tempted to declare the previous statement an Ad Hominem fallacy, but I have never called your character, actions, or circumstances into question. I do however; feel no compunction “calling out” you general lack of knowledge of aviation.

Once again there are far larger conspiracies in evidence today affecting many more than the chem trail issue does and those seem to be suppressed rather well. Stop appealing to higher authorities because you lack a rigorous defense of your own.

LOL Again you show that, while you know the terms involved in informal fallacies, you do not truly understand the concept of the terms. Ad Verecundiam is an appeal to a illegitimate authority. I appealed to legitimate authorities: Pilots. If there is a degree of debate among experts (in this case pilots) then my argument would constitute an Ad Verecundiam fallacy. Unfortunately for you, there is no debate, about “chem trails” in the aviation community.

It would obviously be a military operation in my opinion ( as careful study of the chem trails 'flights' reveals that they do not appear to show up on flight explorer )…
…. There are so many ways to explain it and yet you ramble on trying to attack a straw man structure i never erected.

Careful studies eh, care to show us your notes. I would have some very serious questions to ask. Your location is listed as South Africa. I understand that your actual location may/may not be in the US, but how do you validate your data. You do realize that all ATC data you might see on your computer is delayed per FAA rules. If you look up, in US airspace, and see a aircraft & contrail, then run to your computer to check the ID on the fight; you will not see the flight directly over your position. You have to check around 2-5 min back on the route. This is relatively easy to do with the proper software and a quick check of the flight’s route.
BTW, if you were referring to my position on the logistical strain an operation such as this would entail, as a straw man, you are wrong. Pointing out the details of a nation wide spraying operation, is not a distortion. By using conservative numbers I was, in fact, going out of my way to keep from distorting your position. Ignoring or spinning my point as a straw man, does not invalidate the logic in it.

Once again your assuming whatever helps your mind to dismiss what everyone can observe in their skies. It probably involves many more aircraft than you suggest her so feel free to include a few more thousand pilots just for kicks.

And once again you are guilty of Petitio Principii. You have yet to quantitatively and qualitatively issue a convincing logical argument supporting “chem trails”.

As i said you can make it 10 000 pilots if you like as that would hardly change what we see happening. Appealing to a scale you can not comprehend hardly invalidates observation and reality. If your mind can not deal with what you see stop looking but don't dismiss what you do see.

Again with the Petitio Principii. Just because you fail to see the logic of why the logistics of such an operation would not be noticed does not invalidate the point.
It seems just about every meager rebuttal you attempt, involves you telling someone they are blind. It really is a silly tactic the first time you did it and repeating it does not, somehow, endure yourself to anyone. Ridicule does not suite you.

The same way they managed to drop more tonnage of bombs on…
….What i proposed here is in fact nothing all that weird if one considers the almost complete control of the American media and all the distractions offered to American citizens to keep their minds off reality.

Ok? What does this have to do with “chem trails” and your argument? If anything it would disprove your contentions. Why you ask? Well you know about it! The very fact you know anything about the raids over Laos shows that even an operation a fraction of the size of the one you are proposing, could not escape scrutiny. You know about it because someone credible leaked the info.

Your problem is that you have not investigated history and have no inkling of the massive conspiracies of the past with which to compare this small almost insignificant one. If your understanding of reality is so limited by your ignorance of history ( and your not at all alone ) it's no surprise that you have such trouble dealing with what you see happening. Why do you presume any pilots involved? Remote control of commercial aircraft have been possible since the late 60's or early 70's.

Excusing your Appeal to Ridicule, how do you know anything about my education or my knowledge of history? Frankly this reply was at best patronizing; at worst insulting. You would serve your position better by avoiding tantrums such at this.
All that aside, you mention remote control. Humm so instead of proving how the pilot roster could be accommodating, to your position, you now shift to remote control. I suppose that when I point out that massive amounts of “ground controllers” would still be needed (given the scale of the operation), you would simply state that they were AI controlled.

They would but they regularly see planes flying somewhere with a military 'tag' on it's empty flight plan.. They have no business questioning what is happening as it's simply not their job to.

Sigh……..

There are stories from pilots and there are stories from ATC and from all the rest. The fact that it seems to be so few should tell you that this system is not dependent on commercial or civilian infrastructure at all and may or may not be visible on ATC radar screens.

What stories? The fact that there are so few means that it is not happening.

It's not hard to imagine how it happens but if you do not want to consider it it's easy to find excuses that will make it seem almost impossible.

Or, like yourself, when confronted with experts and a massive body of evidence disproving your position; you persist in your position. Sort of a plug your fingers in your ears and yell “I hear you point and I am ignoring it!”

You have every right to your opinion but i think i have made it clear that i do not think your opinion is based on a understanding of history or the people involved. 'Secrets' that dwarf this one have been kept for centuries from far larger numbers of people.

Someone help me here. Is this an Appeal to Tradition or an Appeal to Common Practice. I am leaning towards Tradition, but I can not decide.

As i said i realise that what you know simply does not allow for something of the this magnitude to happen without your knowledge. It is this type of self assumed arrogance( "The limits of my knowledge is the limits of reality" ) that is the bane of humanity and why i have come to realise that we may very well deserve much of what we get.

LOL Petitio Principii! You believe in it, so therefore it is true. Sorry, but that is just not how it works….no matter how bad you want it too.

Continued

Your post speaks volumes as to the lenghts some…
...the strangest seeming claim i make on ATS...

And the piece de resistance….a rambling Red Herring.

BTW
Found some pic of WWII contrails for ya!

Pic 1
Page with info on Pic 1
Check out the amount of cloud cover created by the contrails!
Check this pic out! The center flights have contrails and the outer ones do not. I bet the center flights are the sprayer! LOL
Pic 2
More evidence of WWII Spraying!!! Look at the top right of the photo. You can see a “trail” even though the subject aircraft are leaving none! Also look at the beginning of a grid at the bottom left of the pic!!
Pic 3
Trails over London
Pic 4
Pic 5
Pic 6
Pic 7
I also found a great resource for Contrails!
www.astro.ku.dk...


[edit on 13-11-2006 by Imperium Americana]

Originally posted by jinsanity
The aircraft are KC stratotankers and Constellations. Look in the sky with good binoculars and see for yourselves for those who don't believe.

Contrails and chemtrails are obvious to distinguish. Contrails don't stay in the air very long as oppsed to chemtrails.

Constellations? Do you know how few of those are even flying? I would be surprised if there are 5 connies flying worldwide.

KC-135s? Those seem to be pretty busy with overseas work, there is a shortage of tankers, I dont know how they have so many free for this vast spraying project. Can you show us a pic of a KC-135 spraying?

Will someone PLEASE try to explain why contrails can not persist. Its repeated over and over like some chemmie mantra, but I have asked how many times for someone to logically explain why a contrail CAN NOT PERSIST, and yet no one ever does.

So can a civil airliner turn in that type of circle and why not bother with the odd colours i referred to? Are they not odd in your opinion and if so can you provide more pictures of the same in European skies before the date of that picture?

The odd colours look like refraction to me

I understand that the flights might be 'connected' or that they might be on approach or might still be under ATC direct control but is that really the explanation or just one of the possibilities?

It's one of the possibilities. However either could be true.

AWACS aircraft circle with there radars to provide information to fighters / commanders.



Jets also often fly the same jetway. Jetways have weird codes like J47, and the generally go from VOR to VOR. Most Airliners use these. Here are some pictures:

www.airliners.net...

www.airliners.net...

www.airliners.net...

www.airliners.net...

www.airliners.net...

Holding patterns can also do race track patterns:


www.flightlevel350.com...

For kicks:
www.airliners.net...

www.airliners.net...

Maybe and yet even when you attempt answers your not offering my anything more solid than what i could come up with. If i ask questions and you can add nothing but more possibilities that's not exactly helpful to your 'cause'.

Have a look at some pictures I posted above.

Well since i know at least a few things about civil airlines i did not propose that that was the case as that may lead people to believe that they only allow me on the asylum PCs this time of the day. It was a serious question and if you want to joke around instead of help me to pin down more likely and mundane explanations your not contributing.

Sorry, I beleive it was a normal wind causing them spirals.

www.airliners.net...

Would you hazard a guess as to why they are so close to each other or is that not relevant? Why do so many of these planes cross paths at the exact places where there are clear and extreme wind shear forces at work?

VOR, NDB's and intersections.

Here is an md-80 CDU;

All the names there (YAK, FAKES ,ect...) are all VOR's or NDB's. All commercial airliners use them. They use them since if the Inertial referance system messes up, they can still dial the Navaid frequincies into the NAV1 / 2 radios, as well as being easier for ATC.

ATC cannot vector everysingle plane individually. Instead, they will tell them to fly STAR XXXX, SID ZZZZ or VOR XXXX then advise them planes for traffic alerts and weather.

Well you proposed possible/likely solutions for five out of sixty images and if that's how much 'evidence' you need to dismiss the rest of the pictures , which i will assume you have no answers to, i think it's clear that your intent was not investigation but out of hand dismissal from the start.

I am talking to people of this site. I don't really care what another site sais about chemtrails as I am talking to you. If you want me to try and debunk a really hard image, fine. Ask me to.

I posted that picture of the Md80 vs 767 because it was to me, funny.

Neither will anyone state where these planes are based, what kind they are, or what airlines are involved.

An airline that is sopposidly involved is KLM.

It's physics and i suggest you familiarise yourself with the field.

lol. Tell me then, WHY CAN'T CONTRAILS PERSIST?


EDIT: spelling

[edit on 13-11-2006 by PisTonZOR]

Originally posted by OnTheDeck

Look at all of the government and military agencies that have visited Carnicom's site (below). The list is over a hundred and probably growing. Is this attention prompted by a conspiracy nutjob? He's getting some serious attention.

It's more likely a case like with Scott Steven's site amongst meteorologists - someone discovers it by accident and then passes the url around to friends and colleagues to have a look at. Even military personal like a laugh now and then


Just because someone from the UK Met Office and the BBC Weather Centre reads my weather forecasts doesn't mean they consider me a serious rival to them

"It's physics and i suggest you familiarise yourself with the field."

Can you expound on that for us please? Just tell us why contrails cant persist. Its repeated over and over by chemtrail believers, but always without explanation.

I would say the best thing against any harmful thing whether it is chemtrails, poison in food, bacteria whatever it is,,,keep your Ph levels at 7.4 never below a 6.8, keep your hands clean and dont be touching your face during and after being in public. Drink lots of fluids, minimum of 64oz of water to where your urine is clear. Eat a healthy balance of good fats, proteins, and carbs. Get good rest and when I say rest Im talking getting into a good REM state several times during the night.
Do things that are fun and make you laugh (good spiritual soul builder) good brain chemicals are released.


You do the above you wont need to take elaborate snake oil vitamins out there and drape magnents all over the place or invest in machine zappers for parasites.
You wont need to build a big Orgone cannon and try to go head to head with chemtrails.

"They will drink poison and it will not harm them, they will take up serpents"(Mil Medical Industrial Complex)
Trust me, its not those crazy hillbillys that dance around with snakes and not calling 911 after they get bit.

In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." Mark 16:14-18


Trust me....I havent been sick in 10 years now. Every once and awhile a virus or bacteria tries to go to work on me but never lasts more than 3-4 hrs.

Hope this helps

[edit on 13-11-2006 by magnito_student]

Magnito, how can I keep my ph above 6.8, for instance what kind of foods should I eat and what kind of water should I drink, thanks.

magnito i think that some of the things you are saying is not healthy.
If you take time to think about not touching your face in public then that will be what causes you a disease.

Don't be paranoid about anything and simply don't think about it or else you will develope a disease called paranoya.