US soldiers execute 4 iraqi firemen infront of Fallujah residents.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister

Are you saying that resistance fighters would not dare imposter firefighters?

Why?? to what end would they pose as firefighters?

Cause they always wanted to be one as a child? Cause they always wanted to blow the siren? Inorder to stick out like a sore thumb and water down the burning humvee?

Please tell me what was this ingenious plan of dressing up as firemen.


What does it matter anway, even if your story where possible, don't you think the fact that there are witnesses to a murder means this thing deserves closer inspection?

Well, you obviously didn't read or attempt to read what I said in my post so I will reiterate:

I posed the question why they would not pose as fireman and your answer was mildly humorous but didn't address the question so I'll restate: Are you saying the resistance would not use subterfuge to attack it's enemy?

Calling me close minded for daring to ask a question is uncalled for. Nothing that I stated in this post or my previous one hinted at nothing other than questioning the article you provided. You seem to think that I was somehow siding with my country's government when, in fact, I stated that I doubt much that they say. Take a look at your own close mindedness.

Good day.

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[edit on 2-11-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by sbob
I just would like to see a little more effort in trying to hear both sides, instead of the same bash the non-Muslims.

The problem is . . . that since the invasion of Iraq, (under false pretenses occurs), we have been geared to see the muslin world and the muslin people and their Islam religion as a danger to democracy and a danger to our way of life here in the west.

Now the consequences are a big detachment from reality and a lack of feelings for anything that is not American.

When news like this come, is either bias, ignorance and lies or propaganda but when news are on our nations side is Patriotic, American and the truth .

D4rk Kn1ght

You are better than that, at least give a try to the understanding of some factors that comes with this war and the way issues are brought forward no always we agree with others but all deserve a chance to be heard.

Origin[quoteally posted by Astygia
Why do these threads degenerate into "attack the OP"?
rich really made the point best. It happened and it must be dealt with.

Because is hard for some people to understand that our soldiers are not perfect and we human are not perfect overall.

Yes accident happens but right now in Iraq, after a war that was brought to their lands. Every time an Iraqi die at the hands of our troops . . . that were there to liberate and bring freedom to that country, in the name of our nation . . . you can pretty much know the rest.

Everytime an Iraqi die is US fault and that is what the rest of the world see . . . because We are in their lands after all invading.

Originally posted by NumberCruncher
Biased ?? Damn straight biased and virtually purely propaganda and lies.
You changed that article from Killed to executed, From accident to assassination.

Well the wording may have been changed for more impact but the reality of the article remains the same.

The media itself can not use words that are demeaning. So the writer of the article can not use words like execution nor assassination, but the thread started see it like that.

Now, how can it be biased? just because you don't like what Syrian Sister posted or because you may not believe that the article is real?

So the issue in the article is what the thread is about, not Syrian Sisters credentials.

Now one thing to point out . . . (I guess because of the media propaganda against anything that is not American) names like Syrian Sister are to become a questionable issue and whatever she post should be biased

Still the issue of the article is the same and have not changed, soldiers open fire and killed, executed, assassinated or whatever you feel comfortable with . . .4 Iraqis that may have been firemen.

Now that is the issue that should be discussed, and not Syrian Sister motives for the thread.

dbates
Your story sounds very different from Syrian Sister’s because besides having a completely different version of events it also fails to make any mention of the troops four burning hummers. I mean they were hardly looking for the insurgents if the insurgents had already found them; and they were waiting for the firemen.

So dbates I think you’ve come across a completely different story to Syrian Sisters in which troops also fired on firemen only this time they’re motives where straight although murderously trigger happy.

If so what a shame its me who spotted this,this late?

[edit on 090705 by Liberal1984]

Well Syrian Sister. This is going to be a thread Hijack because i dont feel that this should be a thread. I do want to get your attention though. I have some questions for you
1: What is it going to take for the different Musilum sects that are in Iraq to get along?

2: What is it going to take to have a stable government that the people of Iraq are happy with?

3: Why cant the different sects come together and agree to disagree?

4: Why cant Iraqis have freedom of religion without being persicuted by each different sect?

I can understand how you have a different view of the war. It is your right as a human to do so. I am not attempting to bash you or even change the way that you see the war. I just want to know your thoughts on these. Thanks.

@Liberal1984
I'm pretty sure it's the same story. I just didn't focus on the buring military vehicles because that's not really unusual. What I found to be odd was the question of them shooting at the firemen so that was my focus. You have to understand, these firemen are probably not wearing the traditional uniforms you see here in the west. It's most likley a volunteer fire department. As to why insurgents would steal a firetruck, probably just to get out of the area uncaught.

I never said that Syrian Sister's story wasn't true, just that it was leaving out some key details.

ultralo1


The anwer to those questions are embedded on history on the historical facts of the region that we call the middle east and the nation that was named Iraq along with most of the nations in the area.

If you want to learn about it, research on their history.

And those questions I believe that they should have been taken into consideration and should have been debate long before our administration went to war and broke their system, even when it was a system of totalitarian rule.

But it seems that ignorance or just plain over confident fueled our governments mind and interest when they went and broke Iraq.

yes!!!! 4 down thousands more to go.
and please buy israel goods.



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[edit on 2-11-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
Why?? to what end would they pose as firefighters?

Here's a few I could rattle off the top of my Head:

1. During an emergency, I could slip by and get to the scene of an incident where I might be able to kill a bunch a US/IRAQI soldiers who think I'm am coming to aid them.

2. I might be able to transport people and arms in a way that might not be detected.

3. I might be able to get into a "secure" area and then detonate a massive truck bomb.

4. Taking a firetruck means one less one for the "infidels" and their lackeys.

5. I might be able to get to a fire or police station and kill the real fireman/policeman.

It's not like insurgents don't use uniforms and fake identities to cause mayhem. Stop making it sound like it is so out of the realm of possibility for them to take a firetruck and impersonate fireman.

If I am not mistaken, doesn't this incident with the soldiers also violate the Geneva Conventions? This should be constituted as a War Crime against the People of Iraq. I rest my case then because on www.genevaconventions.org... it gives the article pertaining to the deaths of civilians in a non-combat capacity. This may pertain to the death of the firemen.

Convention IV
Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, 12 August 1949.

Articles 29 & 32

Art. 29. The Party to the conflict in whose hands protected persons may be, is responsible for the treatment accorded to them by its agents, irrespective of any individual responsibility which may be incurred.

Art. 32. The High Contracting Parties specifically agree that each of them is prohibited from taking any measure of such a character as to cause the physical suffering or extermination of protected persons in their hands. This prohibition applies not only to murder, torture, corporal punishments, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments not necessitated by the medical treatment of a protected person, but also to any other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or military agents.

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[edit on 2-11-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by gimmefootball400
If I am not mistaken, doesn't this incident with the soldiers also violate the Geneva Conventions? This should be constituted as a War Crime against the People of Iraq. I rest my case then because on www.genevaconventions.org... it gives the article pertaining to the deaths of civilians in a non-combat capacity. This may pertain to the death of the firemen.

Not really, unless the soldiers believe that these were insurgents dress as firefighters.

Same source you posted...

Art. 5 Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.

Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.

In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
I'm quite busy, but i was too upset over this not to post about it.

"Four firemen were killed by the U.S. Army because they were late to get to the four burning Hummers," a young man who witnessed the attack told IPS. "They were not killed by mistake, they were killed in front of many people."

What is most infuriating, is how they lied about it, saying they killed them "cause they mistook them for being militants", how much does a fireman with firetruck, big water hose and fire uniform look like a resistance fighter???????

Well after reading Dbates post I would assume your at your usual anti-us propaganda hate mongering again.

I love how the peace loving hippy far left liberals think war is a relaxing run or frolic in a field of daisies.. every one smiling, laughing.. all is fine in the world.. if we don't fight they won't fight.. if we lay down our arms they will lay down their arms.. because everyone just loooves peace and we can all be friends because culture, ethnic, and religious differences mean nothing and of course we shouldn't kill people because that is just mean.. I mean.. we should just stand at street corners with no weapons, smile and wave.. see someone doing something they shouldn't you be sure to give them a good yelling! .. but don't hurt their feelings to bad, they are sensitive.

UUMm, it is war last I checked. I accuse no one of nothing wrong in war unless it is blatantly apparent that they purposefully went out of their way to kill "innocent" people just to prove a point. Which, contrary to you anti-American forces people here, that does not happen very often at all.

you all apparently think only evil war mongering people join the army.

You Peace tree loving hippies also apparently do not understand one bit the concept of war, the concept of international negotiations and the peace process. Of course reading the history of humans and the wars we love to start is not good reading for you, your sensitive side may not bear it.

Your judgement of America and our wars has already predetermined the mind set that you will place us in. We could give every Iraqi a million dollars, a huge house and maybe a bouquet of flowers and you will still think of us as murdering cow boys you have some odd affection for the Jews.

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[edit on 2-11-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

The thing that syrian sister and all the other sympathizers forget is, if these so called 'freedom fighters' would throw down there arms so we 'the US' could go on building up the infrastructer we would be out of there! Atleast in large forces. So who are these freedom fighters really fighting? It sounds like the Iraqi ppl are the ones being left out most in this discussion...

PS.. Syrian sister..... We know you hate the US.. M'kay? so let it go...

Originally posted by ultralo1

1: What is it going to take for the different Musilum sects that are in Iraq to get along?

2: What is it going to take to have a stable government that the people of Iraq are happy with?

3: Why cant the different sects come together and agree to disagree?

4: Why cant Iraqis have freedom of religion without being persicuted by each different sect?

I would like to see one Terrorist sympathizer (any one of them) answer these questions. I predict they will be ignored. None have the courage because the answers would expose them for who they really are. Just getting them to say blowing up their own children is wrong is impossible. It would be easy. Just say blowing up your own people is wrong? If you can not - you are pure evil. Answer ultralo1's questions to prove me wrong. You can't can you?

All I can say is Wow to the above to posts. You guys should take that act on the road...

Most of the people I know who are against the war have been so not because of any hippy reason, or from cowardice. It is because only a bully picks on those that can't defend themself's. What the US did in Iraq was the very definition of cowardice. This entire thing was a lie. Those people over there, even if they did hate you with all their being can't do crap to you.

See that is the thing, when I see people being for the war, I have to question if they have ever even been in a fight? Fighting in any case is never a "brave" thing to do. Sadly sometimes it is neccasary, but only when defending yourself. It is really only the decades of good will the US had earned for itself, that has allowed this to go on. Most people simply can't beleive the US has gone like this - but a majority of people are realizing what is happening, including in the States itself. No one likes bullies.

Originally posted by marg6043

The anwer to those questions are embedded on history on the historical facts of the region that we call the middle east and the nation that was named Iraq along with most of the nations in the area.

I'm sure most people here are as familiar with this history as you are. We just want to hear those who support Terrorism explain why it is OK to commit the attrocities they commit. If our troops are commiting attrocities, Damn Them Too! How does that excuse the actions of these evil people. Don't forget, if not for their actions this war and these conversations would not exist. They have been butchering each other for how many centuries? Is it so wrong to ask them to explain why this is a good thing and why these acts should be defended? Why would anyone defend these actions, unless they approved and participated themselves?

Before anyone makes the ridiculous leap of accusing me of being biased against Muslims - and some dishonest person will - I am not talking about Muslims. I'm talking about mass murderers who blow up civilians, the police and other decent Muslim people.

Originally posted by InDirectViolation
1: What is it going to take for the different Musilum sects that are in Iraq to get along?

2: What is it going to take to have a stable government that the people of Iraq are happy with?

3: Why cant the different sects come together and agree to disagree?

4: Why cant Iraqis have freedom of religion without being persicuted by each different sect?

I would like to see one Terrorist sympathizer (any one of them) answer these questions. I predict they will be ignored. None have the courage because the answers would expose them for who they really are. Just getting them to say blowing up their own children is wrong is impossible. It would be easy. Just say blowing up your own people is wrong? If you can not - you are pure evil. Answer ultralo1's questions to prove me wrong. You can't can you?

- Call me a terrorist sympathizer and I'll call you a yellow coward getting off while real men are fighting and dying because you are too stupid to understand you have been lied too. OK? So you stop refering to people as terrorist sympathizer, and I'll behave myself. Cool?

As for your questions..

1: What is it going to take for the different Musilum sects that are in Iraq to get along?
- Who knows? What is it going to take for racial inequality to be erased from America? When you can answer one of them, you'll have the answer to the other.

2: What is it going to take to have a stable government that the people of Iraq are happy with?
- Once again, can you not say the same thing right now about the States in terms of their government? For the Iraqi people, I would say they were functioning quite well(Relatively speaking) under Saddam, and they would probably function and be happy if they could get one for themself's, instead of one that was instilled by a forign occupying force. But hey, thats just me. Maybe you will welcome you new Chineese overlords?

3: Why cant the different sects come together and agree to disagree?
- Because that is not their way. Their way is not your way. I don't agree with it, but I see that only they can change it and until they want it to change no outside force can make them. Only evolution.

4: Why cant Iraqis have freedom of religion without being persicuted by each different sect?
- For the same reason a right-wing thinker can't express their views in a democrat place without being shouted down, and vice versa. Also remember most of them do live in peace with one another - it is merely a handfull that are really against one another, but remember the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Say - maybe that is Bush's plan for stabilty in the area.... He'll send his troops there, and once the two factions see that the US isn't going anywhere they will team up and jion forces to kick out the US. Upon teaming up they realize they actually need each other after all and the afterschool special music plays as we fade to black..

Originally posted by InDirectViolation[/I]

I'm sure most people here are as familiar with this history as you are. We just want to hear those who support Terrorism explain why it is OK to commit the atrocities they commit.

Excuse me I do not feed trolls . . . so I will like to understand your point of view, so tell me please and by all means.

Who here is supporting terrorism?

I am kind of lost in this one, while we have attacks on Syrian sister for posting one of the many Boo-boos of invading a nation, and maintaining military presence, while trying to educate Iraqis about the beauty of democracy, and shoving it down their through, Oh, well . . .some gets killed what does we care, they are a muslin, Islam practicing country so hey we are superior right?Sarcasm intended

I guess anybody that doesn't agree with Bushes war on terror falls in that category of terrorist supporter and liberal.

I ask again, who is supporting terror?

I tell you this much, our own administration "seems" to support terrorism, while doing every thing it cans to keep fueling the resentment against our troops and our nation’s motives from invading the sovereign nation of Iraq.

So please who is supporting terrorism?.

For some reason this is given me deja vu sounds like somebody . . . other member that came with the same tactic of calling anti war supporters supporters of terrorism.

Humm interesting.

I will be waiting for your replay, because I am truly interested.

[edit on 2-11-2006 by marg6043]