Judge Orders Release of Abu Gharib Children Rape Tape

HankMcCoy

What I don't get is..

The Evil Bush and Friends can bring down the WTC, but they can't make a comparitively minor thing (like a video) disappear. The fact that we even HEARD about this tape makes me question the very notion of this all encompassing conspiracy against the Americans by its government.

This question crossed my mind also, i thought about it and the answer is blaringly obvious. On some level, the powers that be would want this tapes to be known about. Think about it, the purpose of the rape and torture in the first place is to frighting and subjugate people, but how can word about "the horrors of ending up in abugharib" come out if they don't hint at it?
I didn't always understand this but i am begining to, in history, rape and torture was just another weapon to instill fear into your would be enemies, this the US government using that weapon.
Notice that the information is still under there complete controll, it is not circulating on you tube or google video, it is still in their hands. Yet, they can't controll everything... If you where to read some of the eye witness accounts coming out of abugharib that doesn't make it to the western media.... The things on this tape is not new information to anyone who digs deeper than the surface.

Perhaps to accept one such event but not all such events is to imply that this is just a one off. To put on a show that the US government actually deals with these crimes, when in fact thousands and thousands of these reported crimes go unheard.


luda Chris

You didnt get a word of what he said. What he said was that it is not what your average troop would do

No i'm fully aware of what he is saying, he is implying that "these things just happen everywhere" and that there is no systematicness or agenda behind it at all. He is implying that these are the random acts of sick individuals who exist everywhere and that the higher ranking leaders are not accountable for these actions.

You have people like this all over the world and they commit these crimes every day against children

And my reply was, that he is blatently wrong. Though i agree with him and marg6043 that not all US soldiers are child molesting sodomists, i am certain that it is a part of the training of US soldiers to be dehumanised and to see their enemy as subhuman. And in the case of the prison guards, their antics are encouraged and even commanded.
Ofcource those highly sadistic soldiers are hand picked for the job of prison guard, and from the war crimes that we have all seen in iraq, i'm sure the leaders had alot to choose from.


rwiggins

Syrian Sister, do you have personal knowledge of what is on the alleged tapes or of this alleged judgement? Do you know for a fact that the reported incident is accurate and complete or are you just assuming it is?

If you are making judgements and statements of fact based upon allegations, then by definition, you are prejudiced. I respectfully submit that your passion and zeal are blinding your reason and judgement. It weakens your position immeasurably.

I base my judgement on not only the facts at hand, but my knoweledge of past history and the recent history of what has happened in iraq. What i am saying here is not far of a stretch for any reasonable, knoweledagble and objective person.

I respectfully put to you, that it is your denial of what is blatently obvious that is the real prejudice here. After all you claim

blaming the whole based upon the actions of a few is not only wrong, it is reprehensible.

It is you who is claiming that these are merely the "actions of a few" and it is not systematic or ordered, when all evidence is pointing to the contrary. Doesn't this reveal to you your own bias?
Perhaps no one is capable of being completel unbias, but i say what i say beliving that i will be vindicated in the future.
If i am not, rwiggins you can gloat about it and if i am, you have to respect my opinion and analysis in future.


Rockpuck

Never should a modern army, a civilized army, a peace keeping army,

is there such an "army"? I doubt it. To call war, "peace" keeping" is a crime in itself.

----------------

Still, i must re-iterate, what is claimed is on this tape is not unique, is not a single one of occurance, eye witnesses have claimed similar things events even before the news of the tapes came out, watching their children be tortured in front of them... however for them it wasn't taped and so untill the victor is decided so that they can right history, their stories will only be heard by those who dig a little deeper.

The following are A small percentage of the things i dug up:
(it hurts for me to post these aswell, so i have spared myself posting the most gruesome of things here in the quotes, for those of you interested in the truth you'll just have to follow the links)

#1

An Iraqi Woman's Ordeal
At Abu Gharib
23 July, 2004

The rape ordeal she suffered at the hands of US soldiers, both males and females, in the notorious Abu Gharib prison will continue to haunt Nadia for the rest of her life. Though freed now, she is "imprisoned" in painful memories that left her psychologically and physically scarred, paying the price of the brutality and sadism of her American jailers.

Nadia, the name given by a freed Iraqi female prisoner to Al-Wasat, a weekly supplement of the respectable London-based Al-Hayat newspaper,

....

Then, four soldiers raped me sadistically and I lost conscience. Later, she forced me to watch a clip of my raping, saying bluntly: ‘Your were born to give us pleasure’."
Naida was set free from the US hell in Abu Gharib after spending up to six months there.

Read more here
www.countercurrents.org...

#2

...

I did not want to believe him, not because I thought he was not telling the truth but because such truth is too hard on anyone and I wanted, selfishly, to spare myself the agony. A few days later I met a friend coming out of Baghdad and he told me that two ladies from his neighbourhood were in Abu Gharib prison for a few weeks.

When they came out they were speechless when asked about what happened to them and how they were treated. Their only answer was tears and more tears. After many repeated attempts one of them only managed to say "I was touched" and left the rest to the imagination of her visitors. My friend also told me that some men were made to walk naked in front of women prisoners and vice versa.

.....

My tears and disappointment are because I am a western educated person who lived a large portion of his life in the west and never imagined that "liberal, democratic and civilised" nations, as the west is always described to us, could allow this to happen. What will I say to my friends in the west or rather what will they say to me?

more

bitterfact.tripod.com... [/rx]

On May 12, 2004 an Iraqi female professor revealed that U.S. soldiers in Iraq have raped, sexually humiliated and abused several Iraqi female detainees in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison. Professor Huda Shaker, a political scientist at Baghdad University, said an Iraqi young girl was raped by a U.S. military policeman and became pregnant.

Professor Shaker, an Amnesty International researcher, said she knows of other Iraqi females that were arrested, taken to Abu Ghraib prison and raped by the US Military Police. "Iraqi women here are afraid and shy of talking about such subjects," Professor Shaker said. Few women released from U.S. detention have come forward to talk about their experiences in a Muslim society where rape is sometimes equated with shame.

[edit on 30-10-2006 by Syrian Sister]


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[edit on 30-10-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

I will like to bring another link to the story supply by another member on this topic a while back.

I guess many took the story for granted and make it into an outraged lie.

But this has been circulation for a while.

Rumsfeld May Have Ordered Children To Be Raped and Sodomized In Front Of Parents For Information

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

I guess it was no rumors after all.

My post is getting to big.

So here is Case #3 :

Women who stay at home in traditional roles are more likely to be imprisoned as bargaining chips by US troops seeking to pressurize male relatives, according to the New Statesmen (UK). In December 2003,

In September 2003, Selwa was taken by US military personnel to a detention facility in Tikrit, where an American of?cer lit a mixture of human feces and urine in a metal container and gave Selwa a heavy club to stir it. She recalls, “The ?re from the pot felt very strong on my face.” She leans forward and sweeps her hands through the air to show how she stirred the excrement.

“I became very tired,” she says. “I told the sergeant I couldn’t do it.” “There was
another man close to us. The sergeant came up to me and whispered in my ear, ‘If you don’t, I will tell one of the soldiers *EDIT*’” Selwa could not continue with the story.

psychoanalystsopposewar.org/resources_files/SVIW-1.doc

for more info, and resources, some of the above where recorded by nternational Occupation Watch Center, a nongovernmental organization which gathers information on human rights abuses under coalition rule.
But there are other organisations that have been formed, some Iraqi, i will post about that shortly.

Case #4:

www.historiansagainstwar.org...

Following the initial revelations, two important reports came to light: a report prepared by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in February 2004 and another compiled for the U.S. military by General Antonio Taguba at the beginning of the year.
Following are some of the ICRC's findings:

* The crimes were not confined to Abu Ghraib, but occurred in more than a dozen
"internment facilities" in central and southern Iraq, "indicating a consistent pattern…
of brutal behavior during arrest."

-----------------

I did some research about other wars countries and crimes and it seems the torture used in abu gharib is nothing new, perhaps they teach these things to interrogators . THe post you linked marge where the man was forced to wear female underwear, i read that helga of the gestapo also used such a technique.

[edit on 30-10-2006 by Syrian Sister]


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[edit on 30-10-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

I have read many of the stories coming from the sources out of Iraq and afghanistan of the treatment of civilians.

But as you know if they have not CNN, FOX, MSMBC logo you will never have any body pro war that will agree with you.

They will call it ourageous lies and you will fall in the chategory of instigator.

But neverless I have read many, many stories that will make you wonder.

Knowing human nature and its deviations I will have to agree that horrible things do happen and are happening in Iraq.

Specialy when we have a government that have a thing for torture and secret detention camps to do it unrestricted.

^Indeed!

I have alot more to post, but that'll have to be later, i have much study to do


One for the road.

(note to the moderators, this is my transcript of the event so no copy right laws are broken here, also i have left the streamed video available for all to see, and have sourced it all)

Archives - November 09, 2005

DATELINE:Lifting the Hood- The Prisoners of Abu Ghraib.

Streamed video here:

blogagainsttorture.blogspot.com...


Partial transcript:
...

ABU MAAN (Translation): I told them the Americans were coming and to stay calm, because they were after me and I would be going with them. I was worried about the kids, and my wife was pregnant. I woke her up. As I was waking her up the troops entered the bedroom.

MUTHANA(Translation): I was with Mum when I heard the Americans overhead. The glass was shattered. They tied up my brothers like that. They pulled the cord so tight on my brother's neck he was choking. He was screaming and they punched him.

Abu Maan's wife Nadal was six months pregnant at the time of the raid.

NADAL (Translation): I was bleeding. I was shaking all over. In the morning I went to the hospital. I had a miscarriage.

...


ABU MAAN (Translation): I entered the cell around 5am. Before that, they took photos of me in degrading positions. They'd stripped me and were laughing at me. And I'd hear screaming. Men and women screaming. And children sometimes. I found out later that my cell was number 11.

For four months Nadal had no news of her husband and assumed he was dead. As an unregistered 'ghost detainee' Abu Maan lived in constant fear.

...


HAJ ALI (Translation): We've seen none of the Titan Corp or CACI interrogators who'd rape a man in front of his wife, and a woman in front of her husband and a girl in front of her family. We haven't seen any of them being charged. This company hides behind its billions. A month after Abu Ghraib, its contract was renewed.

....


Haj Ali has started an organisation called Victims of the American Occupation Prisons which claims to have 40,000 members. He now spends most of his time trying to help other ex-detainees and documenting new stories of abuse.

...


HAJ ALI (Translation): When a man's honour is violated before his eyes, or when he refuses sexual intercourse with a female soldier and then she straps on a dildo and rapes him, what do you expect from that man?

And for those who will inevitable post on here saying that "the people who did these crimes will be prosecuted, because the US is a civlised country". Allow me to remind you that the soldier who murdered that wounded prisoner in that mosque in fallujah was aquited by US courts.

Also i have an article from a western news source, that shows an example where the wife of a suspected resistance fighter was taken to abu gharib as hostage so that her husband would give himself up, furthermore the soldier who wrote a letter to the husband with the ultimatum included his name in the letter, the husband subsequently went to the media with the letter, and when they tried to contact the soldier he wouldn't make any comment, i pledge that i will find it and post it here.

[edit on 30-10-2006 by Syrian Sister]


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[edit on 30-10-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
And for those who will inevitable post on here saying that "the people who did these crimes will be prosecuted, because the US is a civlised country". Allow me to remind you that the soldier who murdered that wounded prisoner in that mosque in fallujah was aquited by US courts.

That was probably because he was innocent. The guy was obviously an insurgent involved in guerilla operations against US soldiers, why shouldn't he have bee killed. The insurgent murdering scum would hardly have even blinked an eye if he murdered an injured US soldier.
Given the penchant for these Islamic extremists to commit suiced using a variety of explosive devices, I would have shot him myself if I had been in that situation. WHat makes this insurgents even more ridiculous is that they like to kill themselves because of some mythical god, fortunately ( althogh only after teh fat ) there is no heaven waiting fr them

Originally posted by rogue1

Given the penchant for these Islamic extremists to commit suiced using a variety of explosive devices, I would have shot him myself if I had been in that situation. WHat makes this insurgents even more ridiculous is that they like to kill themselves because of some mythical god, fortunately ( althogh only after teh fat ) there is no heaven waiting fr them

And you are falling for the scam that took us to invading Iraq and the lies that were given through the media for desirable results.

Guess what . . . the american people has been decieved, lie upon and taken avantage to suppor a war that is nothing more than for greed, power and energy control.

You know what our soldiers are dying for?

To protect big interest and corporate america.

[edit on 30-10-2006 by marg6043]

Good, they should be releasing these tapes, if this stuff really happened, then the people that perpetrated it should be gotten rid of. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. As far as it hurting our "war effort"...too bad, raping kids is where everyone should draw the line, and if anything would help our war effort, it'd be people seeing that america actually doesn't tolerate that kind of criminality and abuse, and will actually do something about it. As it stands, people know that the allegations are out there, the ones that hate us already beleive it, and everyone can see that we are basically covering it up and refusing to do anything about it. That hurts us a heckuva lot more than having somethign for the people already engaged in action against us having something else to be upset over.


As far as some guy involved in a shootout being shot when its discovered that he's not dead and is moving around, so what. That kind of thing is allways going to happen in war, and if a person doesn't want it to happen to them, they can.....no take up arms and join in the war. But this issue of raping kids in prison....

[edit on 30-10-2006 by Nygdan]

As far as some guy involved in a shootout being shot when its discovered that he's not dead and is moving around, so what. That kind of thing is allways going to happen in war, and if a person doesn't want it to happen to them, they can.....no take up arms and join in the war. But this issue of raping kids in prison....

I take it you haven't seen the video, the man was already shot, unconcious but still breathing before your animal put 10 bullets in him.

He wasn't moving around at all.
"he's dead now" said your animal.

Why don't you do yourself a favour and watch the video nygaand.

And i do agree that these things happen in war, WHICH IS WHY I AM AGAINST WAR AND EVERYONE THAT STARTS THEM.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister

As far as some guy involved in a shootout being shot when its discovered that he's not dead and is moving around, so what. That kind of thing is allways going to happen in war, and if a person doesn't want it to happen to them, they can.....no take up arms and join in the war. But this issue of raping kids in prison....

I take it you haven't seen the video,

Actually, I did, and it was perfectly acceptable. War is men going over to a place and killing other men. Its allways a disgusting thing. THese guys were all involvled in a battle against one another, the americans won, came into the building, and then one guy was starting to move around, so they shot him. Good, thats what they are there for, to kill people, in particular the ones that are trying to kill them.

He wasn't moving around at all."he's dead now" said your animal.

Why is this guy an animal? Becuase he didn't take this guy prisoner? They had just come into the building and it wasn't secured, these guys still had weapons and certainly hadn't been searched for more weapons. If that guy didn't want to get shot, he shouldn't've picked up a gun and gone to war.
Just how many prisoners have the insurgency captured on the battlefield? How many of them have been visited by the Red Cross or other intenrational agenices?
Zero. The insurgency doesn't take prisoners. Americans can't be expected to
wait to be shot at, again before shooting back. That guy had already opened fire upon american troops, they shot him, he was partly incapacitated, and then they finished him off. Good for them, thats their job.

WHICH IS WHY I AM AGAINST WAR AND EVERYONE THAT STARTS THEM.

:l@@:
All the iraqis have to do to get the americans out of iraq is vote in a party that will ask the americans to leave. THey don't because they are more concerned with killing other iraqis than having the americans leave. Iraq right now is just like yugoslavia after the communists fell apart, in the anarchic power vaccuum, they've decided to vent their hate on one another and kill each other. The only way that the americans are able to justify staying in Iraq is because people know that if they leave, that it will become even more violence wracked, more unstable, and destabilize everything around it. All the insurgents have to do to get rid of the americans is declare a nationwide cease fire and actually stick to it, but they don't, because they want war.

[edit on 30-10-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by Nygdan
As far as it hurting our "war effort"...too bad, raping kids is where everyone should draw the line, and if anything would help our war effort, it'd be people seeing that america actually doesn't tolerate that kind of criminality and abuse, and will actually do something about it.
....no take up arms and join in the war. But this issue of raping kids in prison....

[edit on 30-10-2006 by Nygdan]

I wish you were right about America not tolerating this kind of actions, however your own history as a country is agaisnt you. T
This is not the first time not the last.
This Country is not going to change peacefully.
This system is broken is not a matter of "if" but when it will start. The REVOLUTION. Keep denying these things happen, deny it happens as often, deny it happens under your wach, deny is done in your name, with your money and that it will take your kids to work as slaves for one or two years to pay forthis war.

Maybe is true what some say. We dont get the leaders we need; we get the ones we deserve.

The insurgency doesn't take prisoners. Americans can't be expected to

That's a blatent lie.

Why is this guy an animal? Becuase he didn't take this guy prisoner?

Because he shot and killed a wounded and incapacitated man, who wasn't a threat to anyone.
You can't see the dishonour in that? You really have lost your humanity nygaand.
I've seen several images of your soldier shooting people who where waving a white flag.
If you don't see this as criminal, then i think you should take your place among the torturers.

All the iraqis have to do to get the americans out of iraq is vote in a party that will ask the americans to leave.

LOL LOL, which planet do you live on? There is no such party, all of the puppet politicians support the US's will, why? because the US gives them power, without the US non of the traitors would exist anymore.
DO you think they would ever dare to hold a referendum asking if the people want the occupation?
Do you think that your government has actually created a reall democracy in iraq?
HAAAAH! nygaand i thought you where smarter than that.

The only way for iraqies to get the americans out, is to push them out with force, and that's just what they are doing.
------------

Now i will thankyou that as a moderator we will agree to get back to the topic at hand.
-------------------

I wish you were right about America not tolerating this kind of actions,

Well if we take nygaand as an example, the american people will tolerate alot, including the murder of wounded prisoners.

[edit on 30-10-2006 by Syrian Sister]

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
That's a blatent lie.

I am certainly not lying, although, you are correct, I completely forgot about Jessica Lynch.

Because he shot and killed a wounded and incapacitated man, who wasn't a threat to anyone.

He moved, he wasn't disarmed, he had been shooting at americans, therefore, they did right.

You can't see the dishonour in that? You really have lost your humanity nygaand.

War is about men going some where to kill other men, its got nothing to do with honour or humanity.

I've seen several images of your soldier shooting people who where waving a white flag.

I haven't.

If you don't see this as criminal, then i think you should take your place among the torturers.

A white flag doesn't automatically mean you get a cease fire. The americans have no reason to expect a white flag to be obeyed, until they do, there is no reason to require them to observe it.

LOL LOL, which planet do you live on? There is no such party,

It would be facile for someone like al Sadr to say 'I am running for president, and when I am elected, I will request that the americans leave'.

Well if we take nygaand as an example, the american people will tolerate alot, including the murder of wounded prisoners.

That guy was not a prisoner, he hadn't been taken prisoner. He had been fired upon, and then, before the area was secure, he started moving, and the soldiers shot him. There is nothing wrong with that.


What there is something wrong with is taking actual prisoners, especially children, and raping them. At least now that atrocity is going to be aired, and hopefully something will be done about it.

[edit on 30-10-2006 by Nygdan]

If these photos and video do exist and these events took place then all that are involved should be prosecuted. The problem is that there will probably only be a few fall guys like the first scandal. This kind of thing does happen in war, which is why it is always a travesty that we have to resort to it. This war in Iraq was a mistake for more reasons than this, but anyone who was all for this war should take a hard look at this.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
The only way for iraqies to get the americans out, is to push them out with force, and that's just what they are doing.

Most of the violence in Iraq is now Iraqis against each other, not just against our solders. What do you think is going to happen if we pulled out right now? The violence would continue without us.

Originally posted by marg6043
I will like to bring another link to the story supply by another member on this topic a while back.

I guess many took the story for granted and make it into an outraged lie.

But this has been circulation for a while.

Rumsfeld May Have Ordered Children To Be Raped and Sodomized In Front Of Parents For Information

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

I guess it was no rumors after all.

I clicked the link and noticed what it was tagged with.
tagged with: war us soliers rape allegations ir lies undocumented propaganda rumsfield iraq torture questionable sources war crimes rumsfeld questioning authority pedophiles in us army abu ghraib disinformation new yorker

Notice, "Undocumented, propaganda, disinformation"

Maybe they should change the tags now that we know it wasn't undocumented or propaganda or disinformation. It was all true, and all the people who said it was BS and attacked the person who posted it should be drawn and quartered. Or at least tagged with a "Told You So" on their foreheads.

Waitaminute, there's a big difference between there being people that were at abu garaib and who abused kids there, and "Don Rumsefeld ordered children to be raped".

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
I take it you haven't seen the video, the man was already shot, unconcious but still breathing before your animal put 10 bullets in him.

He wasn't moving around at all.
"he's dead now" said your animal.

10 BUllets, what a damn waste of taxpayers money, This scum didn't even deserve the cost of one bullet being wasted on him. They should have used a knife or something.

And i do agree that these things happen in war, WHICH IS WHY I AM AGAINST WAR AND EVERYONE THAT STARTS THEM.

LOL, I think you get off on this Iraq War, you wouldn't have anything to talk about otherwise. Lets face it, you havea hard on for the guerilla's in Iraq, your nice safe life in Australia would be so much more boring without them

Let's face it half of these " guerilla's " would be in prison in a peaceful life, most are just to sadistic and babaric to live in civilian society.

PS. I doubt Rumsfeld could order children to be raped and sodomised, ridiculous.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Waitaminute, there's a big difference between there being people that were at abu garaib and who abused kids there, and "Don Rumsefeld ordered children to be raped".

Well how can that be posible, that Rumsfeld didn't know about it.

When he is a very micromanaging person that do not even trust his own Generals, he does all the calls and he also get the information first before the president gets it.

So how can he could have been in the dark about no only the abuses in Abu Ghraib with the adult population but the children also.

I am going to point my finger at him. for been a the top of the chain of comand under the president.

Originally posted by rogue1
10 BUllets, what a damn waste of taxpayers money, This scum didn't even deserve the cost of one bullet being wasted on him. They should have used a knife or something.

Do you not see how this line of thought is cruel, regardless of who's using it? These are people. They don't sit under a rock somewhere waiting for a war to start. They have lives, just like you and I.

I cannot comment on the rightness or wrongness of the actions of the soldiers in the video. It was my experience that the wounded were disarmed and given treatment, when the situation allows it. None of us were there in that situation, and just FYI, there's more to a combat zone than what you can see on a few minutes of tape.

LOL, I think you get off on this Iraq War, you wouldn't have anything to talk about otherwise. Lets face it, you havea hard on for the guerilla's in Iraq, your nice safe life in Australia would be so much more boring without them

How easily you laugh at the passion of a real issue. Were I using the same logic but pro-war, you would likely back me 100%, yes?

I don't mean to put you down, but attacking the poster for their intensity and feeling on a subject are uncalled for, even if it's a view you don't agree with.

Let's face it half of these " guerilla's " would be in prison in a peaceful life, most are just to sadistic and babaric to live in civilian society.

PS. I doubt Rumsfeld could order children to be raped and sodomised, ridiculous.

Half of these guerillas began life as civilians. Most of them are just people, with no real training or military experience. Do I want them to kill soldiers? No. But does the fact that they do, make them monsters? Sit down and think about it for a moment, we invaded a damn country on pure lies, and the reasons since then has been evolving to fit the buzzword of the year.

As to Rumsfeld, I don't know what he ordered and waht he didn't order. I don't like the man, but considering he is running a war in two countries, it is entirely possible that he didn't know. But it happened, and it was only kept secret from the public. Someone or someones in office knew, and all those responsible should be prosecuted to the fullest.

[edit on 30-10-2006 by Astygia]

Originally posted by Astygia
Do you not see how this line of thought is cruel, regardless of who's using it? These are people. They don't sit under a rock somewhere waiting for a war to start. They have lives, just like you and I.

I couldn't care less, he took up arms and was trying to kill people. As far as I'm concerned that's one less nutter runnig around shooting and blowing up people.

How easily you laugh at the passion of a real issue. Were I using the same logic but pro-war, you would likely back me 100%, yes?

LOl passion my arse. SHe is a person benefitting from the freedoms enjoyed in Australia, harping on about the glorious resistance, lol. She knows nothing about it. As for being pro-war well, IMO the US should ave just made a deal with Saddam, removed the sanctions and let the oil flow. Saddam was far better at suppressing his won people tehn the US could ever hope for. FREEDOM ? the Iraqi's don't deserve it, they have shown they want to be controlled by whomever wields the biggest axe. Bush talksabout building a fence between Mexico and the US, the rest of the world should od that with the Middle East, lol. Cut them off, let them kill each other, we'll go back in in 50 years adn they'll be living in huts.

I don't mean to put you down, but attacking the poster for their intensity and feeling on a subject are uncalled for, even if it's a view you don't agree with.

How is that putting me down ? We are allowed disagree aren't we.

Half of these guerillas began life as civilians. Most of them are just people, with no real training or military experience. Do I want them to kill soldiers? No. But does the fact that they do, make them monsters?

Hmm lets see, half of these people probably would have been crminals to begin with. And if yoiu don't call cutting poeiples heads off, torturing people in horrific ways, blowing up dozens of women and children everyday and ruling by fear MONSTROUS, I think you need a serious reality check.


BTW. I lost a friend in Iraq, he wasn't American and he wasn't a soldier. He was a camera man doing his job who was murdered by a car bomb in Kirkuk - this wasn't targetted at soliders ( there were none there ), it was targetted at the Iraqi people. As I said they are criminal scum these insurgents.

[edit on 30-10-2006 by rogue1]