Cheney's Remarks Fuel Torture Debate

Vice President, Dick Cheney has said that dunking terrorism suspects in water, to elicit information, is a "no-brainer". Cheney made the remarks in answer to a question from conservative radio talk-show-host, Scott Hennen, in Fargo N.D. There has been wide-spread belief that the CIA and others are routinely using the "Waterboarding" technique, which simulates drowning, on terrorism suspects, including Khalid Sheik Mohammad, the alleged "mastermind" of the 9/11 attacks.



Although many in Congress, including Sen, John McCain have called for a ban on techniques such as waterboarding, etc, the Administration still refuses to say what types of interrogation techniques they consider to be forms of torture or what techniques they are using now or in the past; this can only mean that they have no regard for human dignity and that they are above the law, specifically, the Geneva Conventions.

How can the US ever hope to be seen as anything other than hypocrites and barbarians when they condemn torture and injustice and then commit the very same acts that they vilify? I love my country and I am angered and immensely saddened at the low point to which our government has sunk and the way these actions fuel the fire of the radical terrorists and fascists that seek our demise.

Related News Links:
www.cbsnews.com
www.sfgate.com
blogs.chron.com

Related AboveTopSecret.com Discussion Threads:
Bush's Fight with Congress over Torture Defines Our Character
Americas Disgusting Inhuman Medical Torture at Gitmo
Bush signs Military Commission Act - Bloggers Beware

[edit on 10/27/2006 by Stormrider]

[edit on 27-10-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

I think that everyone knows where I stand in support of the current Administration, BUT!!!

That was plain STUPID..

Especially for someone sitting in the second most powerful seat in the world..

Well... This time he deserves the fallout...

Semper

We voted for these people for their "smarts" and ability to run the country, they go all thru the process of what they can and can't do concerning torture, then everything simmers down, then, "BAM", they say something stupid again.

I don't know what all the fuss is about, as far as I'm concerned "water-boarding" is not torture. IMO anything other than extreme physical pain which will result in permanent bodily injury is fair game. But whatever, I suppose for some people everything but words is torture.

[edit on 27-10-2006 by WestPoint23]

John McCain is one of the few guys in politics that I'd listen to concerning torture considering he's undergone torture, making him one of the few qualified men in Washington to make an informed decision on this. Perhaps all politicians should undergo some of these torture techniques, then maybe they'll be a little more reluctant to use such techniques without a just trial.

Originally posted by cyberdude78
Perhaps all politicians should undergo some of these torture techniques, then maybe they'll be a little more reluctant to use such techniques without a just trial.

I will like to see all the people that believe torture is ok make a piramid like the one in Abu Graib and then have Cheney on the top of it.

Yuck... bad image... I just imagined several fat, balding men in cheerleaders outfits. I did not need that picture...

Although that would be pretty funny to see on the Daily Show with Jon Stewart.

Fact o' the matter is, he who will go the lowest wins. Genghis Khan made a habit of this tactic. His hoards would kill all the men in a village, then take all the women and children of that village and march them in front of them when attacking the next village. I really don't need to tell you what happened next.

You are doing nothing but feeding our enemies! (US Citizens)

Originally posted by semperfortis
I think that everyone knows where I stand in support of the current Administration, BUT!!!

That was plain STUPID..

Especially for someone sitting in the second most powerful seat in the world..

Well... This time he deserves the fallout...

Semper

Semper,

I used to be where you are in supporting the gov't; to my utter shame, I voted for Bush in 2000 and supported him after 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq. No more. This is not the first time that Cheney or Rumsfeld or the "Chief" himself, put their foot in their mouth and showed just how little they care about the opinions of anyone not, "in the know". Rumsfeld said it himself, just the other day: People need to "back off"; we don't need to understand why they can't all get their ducks in a row. He went on to say that,

"This is complicated stuff, understand that it's complicated, it's difficult, that honorable people are looking on these things together",

as if those who have questions about the administration's handling of the war are less than "honorable".

Unfortunately, this trend does not seem to be on a down turn, judging from Cheney's remarks. I can no longer support the efforts of an administration that is willing to send brave young men and women off to their deaths in a war that they know they can not win. I went through the same thing with Nixon and went off to Viet Nam because my President said that my country needed me. That war was also poorly planned and lasted far longer than it should have because "honorable people" refused to wake up and smell the napalm. Nixon was wrong then and Bush is wrong now; at least that is how I see it.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I don't know what all the fuss is about, as far as I'm concerned "water-boarding" is not torture. IMO anything other than extreme physical pain which will result in permanent bodily injury is fair game. But whatever, I suppose for some people everything but words is torture.

[edit on 27-10-2006 by WestPoint23]

So what you are saying then is that as long as there are no "visable" scars that anything goes, did I get that right? So, psychological torture is not really "torture" and the ends justify the means so, it's no biggie, right? Waterboarding, sensory deprivation, sensory overload techniques, they are all dandy ways of getting what ever info you need; no worries that they are all outlawed under the Geneva Conventions or that our own Gov't screams bloody murder when someone does it to one of our people. You know the Japanese and North Vietnamese thought the same way and I'm sure we are using a lot of their same techniques today, but hey, it's o.k. as long as it's us doing it to them. Morality and humanity just get in the way, it seems.

Originally posted by cyberdude78
John McCain is one of the few guys in politics that I'd listen to concerning torture considering he's undergone torture, making him one of the few qualified men in Washington to make an informed decision on this.

I agree, cyberdude. Mc Cain spent five years in a North Vietnamese prison and was rountinely subjected to torture. He knows what he's talking about; people should listen to him.

posted by stormrider
So what you are saying then is that as long as there are no "visable" scars that anything goes, did I get that right? So, psychological torture is not really "torture" and the ends justify the means so, it's no biggie, right? Waterboarding, sensory deprivation, sensory overload techniques, they are all dandy ways of getting what ever info you need; no worries that they are all outlawed under the Geneva Conventions or that our own Gov't screams bloody murder when someone does it to one of our people. You know the Japanese and North Vietnamese thought the same way and I'm sure we are using a lot of their same techniques today, but hey, it's o.k. as long as it's us doing it to them. Morality and humanity just get in the way, it seems.

McCain is a victim, and that is a political plus these days. He sucked up to the VC and came away with his life. Admirals Son afterall. Cheated on his wife bigtime. Moral leper, sorry! This country is the last of his worries!

Originally posted by HimWhoHathAnEar

posted by stormrider
So what you are saying then is that as long as there are no "visable" scars that anything goes, did I get that right? So, psychological torture is not really "torture" and the ends justify the means so, it's no biggie, right? Waterboarding, sensory deprivation, sensory overload techniques, they are all dandy ways of getting what ever info you need; no worries that they are all outlawed under the Geneva Conventions or that our own Gov't screams bloody murder when someone does it to one of our people. You know the Japanese and North Vietnamese thought the same way and I'm sure we are using a lot of their same techniques today, but hey, it's o.k. as long as it's us doing it to them. Morality and humanity just get in the way, it seems.

McCain is a victim, and that is a political plus these days. He sucked up to the VC and came away with his life. Admirals Son afterall. Cheated on his wife bigtime. Moral leper, sorry! This country is the last of his worries!

Just a question: how does your response above in any way address my concerns in the attached quote? I'm afraid your meaning eludes me.

Very simple, you try to glorify McCain. I am simply saying that McCain is one of them. An Elite, Admirals Son, you think the NV's didn't know that? C'mon

HimWhoHathAnEar,

Well, I guess the confusion comes from the fact that I did not mention McCain in the quote you attached. I actually thought you meant to respond to my statement on the humaneness of torture. But hey, I guess you just march to a different drummer.

Originally posted by Stormrider
Unfortunately, this trend does not seem to be on a down turn, judging from Cheney's remarks. I can no longer support the efforts of an administration that is willing to send brave young men and women off to their deaths in a war that they know they can not win. I went through the same thing with Nixon and went off to Viet Nam because my President said that my country needed me. That war was also poorly planned and lasted far longer than it should have because "honorable people" refused to wake up and smell the napalm. Nixon was wrong then and Bush is wrong now; at least that is how I see it.

Just remember who started VietNam (JFK) and who ended it (Nixon).

By your logic, if Hillary wins in 2008, she will be wrong, too. Right?

Cheney, Bush, Rumsefld and Condi should be waterboarded for what they did to this country and because they allow torture.

Also, did you know that waterboarding was the most common torture used by the church during inquisition?

I think i finally got it!

Cheney was tortured as a child. And so was Rumsfeld.

Maybe this is how his mouth became twisted. They need counseling, as well as time in the slammer.

Originally posted by Stormrider
So what you are saying then is that as long as there are no "visable" scars that anything goes, did I get that right?

As long as there is no permanent bodily injury resulting from extreme physical pain.

Originally posted by Stormrider
So, psychological torture is not really "torture" and the ends justify the means so, it's no biggie, right?

Again, to better help you understand let me restate my position, I would allow all techniques as long as there is no permanent bodily injury resulting from extreme physical pain.

Originally posted by Stormrider
Waterboarding, sensory deprivation, sensory overload techniques, they are all dandy ways of getting what ever info you need; no worries that they are all outlawed under the Geneva Conventions or that our own Gov't screams bloody murder when someone does it to one of our people.

Geneva Conventions? Ok, just for humor please show me the passages in the Geneva Convention (which do not even factor into this argument BTW) where such techniques are "outlawed". Also, if our enemies followed the same standard that I stated then none of our troops would die if they become POW's. But our enemies have never followed a damn thing when it come to US prisoners, quite frankly you are naive if you think that ANYTHING we do will change this. Whether it was being decapitated by Japanese swords or being shot in front of a camera in Iraq, the situation has remained the same.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I don't know what all the fuss is about, as far as I'm concerned "water-boarding" is not torture. IMO anything other than extreme physical pain which will result in permanent bodily injury is fair game. But whatever, I suppose for some people everything but words is torture.

[edit on 27-10-2006 by WestPoint23]

How "Clinton-ian" of you!

I can almost hear it now "It depends on what your definition of 'pain' is..."

Careful, my friend, keep thinking like ol "slick Willy" and the the GOP will be demanding their secret decoder ring back!


What constitutes "Torture"? It is really very simple:

Torture is Anything you would not want your child, at any age, to be subjected to; unless such treatment was absolutely vital for the child's survival.

To seek harsher treatment against individuals who happen to be unrelated, or even un-friendly, to us, is to submit, willingly, to the evil and depravity lurking within our own souls. You cannot rationalize the employment of torture, in any form, on the basis of "It's necessary to illicit information that can save lives", unless you are willing to allow that same logic to guide the hands of your opponents in regard to their captives, our friends and faimly members, as well.

As some one once said,

"Do Unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Unto You".

Note that the saying is Not "Do unto others AS Long As they do unto you", nor is it "Do unto others Unless they have Something you Need".

If you find these guidelines somehow inadequate, or "too restrictive in light of the situation we face today", perhaps what you are seeking is not information regarding planned terrorist actions, but merely a thinly veiled rationalization for your own sociopathic blood-lust.

[edit on 28-10-2006 by Bhadhidar]