Cheney's Remarks Fuel Torture Debate

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by Stormrider
I went through the same thing with Nixon and went off to Viet Nam because my President said that my country needed me. .. Nixon was wrong then and Bush is wrong now; at least that is how I see it.

Just remember who started VietNam (JFK) and who ended it (Nixon).

By your logic, if Hillary wins in 2008, she will be wrong, too. Right?

The last time I saw logic this broken it was in a discussion about how standard versus daylight savings times can mess up cattle's internal clocks....as if they're keeping up with what time it is or something.

Did you not read his statement before lobbing this flaming turd at him? He stated clearly that Nixon was in office when he (the poster) was sent to Viet Nam and therefore NIXON is the one he feels was wrong for the impact in his (the poster's) life. He didn't say anything about Nixon being guilty because he was elected after Kennedy's bad decision.

I would think that whomever follows Bush - whether Republican or Democrat - will be judged on their own merits, not because of some sick political game of tit-for-tat...right?

Originally posted by Bhadhidar
Torture is Anything you would not want your child, at any age, to be subjected to; unless such treatment was absolutely vital for the child's survival.

OMG, you're actually serious, that's not even funny.

Originally posted by Bhadhidar
"Do Unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Unto You".

I sincerely hope they do, it would mark significant progress.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Originally posted by Stormrider
So what you are saying then is that as long as there are no "visable" scars that anything goes, did I get that right?

As long as there is no permanent bodily injury resulting from extreme physical pain.

So loading these guys up on '___' so that they are completely nuts for a few hours/days resulting in them thinking they are literally in hell is not torture by your definition...I mean, it doesnt leave any "visible scars"

[edit on 28-10-2006 by xEphon]

Originally posted by xEphon
So loading these guys up on '___' so that they are completely nuts for a few hours/days resulting in them thinking they are literally in hell is not torture by your definition...I mean, it doesnt leave any "visible scars"

I'm not quite sure on what '___' does to the body, but if it does not seriously affect your body adversely both internally and externally permanently then it's not torture.

posted by bhadhidar
"Do Unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Unto You".

And someone also said, 'All's fair in love and war'.


While you're snivelling about their 'rights', they're trying to figure out how to kill you. Plain and Simple. If you can't get your mind around that, then leave the dirty work to those who can!

Originally posted by Stormrider
I used to be where you are in supporting the gov't; to my utter shame, I voted for Bush in 2000 and supported him after 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq. No more.

Well, I gotta give you credit for admitting to your past mistakes & express what you lessons you learned. Personally, when I turned voting age (back in 1979), I'd look at the candidates, check out their campaigns & issues, then wind up voting "No Confidence"...Matter of fact, that's the only vote I've ever made. I've gotten to the point where I don't even really scutinize the candidates any more; I wind up voting just like every other "party voter" who just pulls the party lever...But it's a bit harder for me because they don't have a "no confidence lever."


The problem is what will happen if torture is allowed, then combine that with the Patriot Act & Victory Act...It means that they would use torture on anybody they want to, for whatever reason or no reason! Don't just look at this one problem...We have to see how all of these problems interrelate with each other! If we can't look at the "big picture", we all get bogged down in details. The proverbial "last straw on the camel's back", and all...

Originally posted by HimWhoHathAnEar
Very simple, you try to glorify McCain. I am simply saying that McCain is one of them. An Elite, Admirals Son, you think the NV's didn't know that? C'mon

A completely different thought about McCain...In order to use misdirection, they could be using him to "voice objections" in the public eye about the topic of torture. By publicly quashing any of his opinions against the use of torture, it will hold them up in the public eye as being "justified" on the whole topic of torture.
Classic case of misdirecting the public for political gain. I may not be Illuminati, but I'm illuminated...I can understand how they think the way they do, even if I could never condone it.
So start watching in the press if McCain starts talking against the use of torture...

Personally, I'm against the government using torture, for any reason, on anybody...If they're allowed to start, it won't be long before they use it on us!

Originally posted by WestPoint23
But our enemies have never followed a damn thing when it come to US prisoners, quite frankly you are naive if you think that ANYTHING we do will change this. Whether it was being decapitated by Japanese swords or being shot in front of a camera in Iraq, the situation has remained the same.

But how can we, as the entire human race I mean, become truly "civilized" if we keep sinking into barbarity? It's a nasty circle (throughout all of human history) that should be broken...Somewhere.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
OMG, you're actually serious, that's not even funny.

What? Do you think that there's anything funny about the use of torture in the first place?

Originally posted by HimWhoHathAnEar
And someone also said, 'All's fair in love and war'.

Somebody turn on the air filters...I'm beginning to smell the BS of a couple of Disinformation Artists...
:dn

As long as you're willing to use pithy little quotations that really have no identifiable source as to who first said them, how about chewing on these ten quotes? Look in pretty much any Christian Bible in the Book of Exodus: Look specifically for The Ten Commandments! At least everybody knows the source for those (even discounting whether or not it's their religion, people still know the source).
Governments have always sought to place themselves above God in the eyes of the People; It's a fact of history...It's no different here or now.

This is the kind of thinking that keeps the human race mired in barbarism. If no one is willing to take the higher ground in morality or ethics, then we'll always be going nowhere, except to hit our neighboring cavemen with our new-found clubs. They're seeking to "justify" torture to use as another weapon against whomever they want to use it against.
Here's another quote:
"I don't know what weapons will be used in World War III, but World War IV will be fought with sticks & stones."--Albert Einstein

[edit on 28-10-2006 by MidnightDStroyer]

posted by midnightdstroyer
how about chewing on these ten quotes? Look in pretty much any Christian Bible in the Book of Exodus: Look specifically for The Ten Commandments! At least everybody knows the source for those

The Bible, like our constitution, is not a suicide pact. I'm sure you're familiar with the many wars Israel has fought for its survival since the 10 commandments were given.

This is the kind of thinking that keeps the human race mired in barbarism. If no one is willing to take the higher ground in morality or ethics, then we'll always be going nowhere, except to hit our neighboring cavemen with our new-found clubs.

I think your premise is flawed. Defending yourself (or your nation), is not the same as bonking someone on the head for no apparent reason. Would you have us sit and let them pummel us because we're morally superior?

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
What? Do you think that there's anything funny about the use of torture in the first place?

First, the quote you chose to respond to has nothing to do with the use of torture, I found a posters definition of torture quite absurd. Now to answer you question, no, I do no think the use of torture is humorous.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

I'm not quite sure on what '___' does to the body, but if it does not seriously affect your body adversely both internally and externally permanently then it's not torture.

What about the effects of the mind? You think it is ok to make someone insane? Why do you think this is fine? For YOUR security? Are you that fearful? Do you not feel that you are a brave American that does not do bad things because you can get away with it, but because it is the wrong thing to do? What happens when it is your children down the road that have become dometic terrorists because they protest? Are you going to let them be waterboarded? Didnt the Christains used to do something close to this to Witches?

I really dont think we should be in a position in the first place that we have to subject other paople to this kind of action because we want to stay in theyre land that we are or never have been welcome to occupy. People dont turn themselves into human bombs because you are doing good things for them.

What are some of you people becoming? You have been forcefed crap and misled to this place where our country is losing all dignity. Where is your honor, guts and glory dear sir? Did you leave them somewhere or never had them in the first place?

This country should never do anything close to torture, and if we are doing things that have put our security in jeoprody then we need to change our direction, not lose our honor and virtue.

I am a man of honor, and I am no longer represented by this government.



[edit on 28-10-2006 by LoneGunMan]

Interesting video where a reporter lasted 24 minutes being "Water Boarded."

Fairly disturbing to watch, but at the end he was laughing and joking around..

www.current.tv...

Please do not misconstrue this as my support of Water Boarding, this is simply something that you should watch if you really want to know what your talking about. Then you can judge the effects for yourself.

Semper

posted by lonegunman
if we are doing things that have put our security in jeoprody then we need to change our direction

Always our fault isn't it? Self loathing is a terrible thing. How can we win in your eyes? If we're attacked, it's our fault. If we respond to being attacked, it's our fault. Honor seems to have taken on a new meaning.

Originally posted by Stormrider
Unfortunately, this trend does not seem to be on a down turn, judging from Cheney's remarks. I can no longer support the efforts of an administration that is willing to send brave young men and women off to their deaths in a war that they know they can not win. I went through the same thing with Nixon and went off to Viet Nam because my President said that my country needed me. That war was also poorly planned and lasted far longer than it should have because "honorable people" refused to wake up and smell the napalm. Nixon was wrong then and Bush is wrong now; at least that is how I see it.

Well said.

Waterboarding is torture? How about the torture that has been brought upon the families of the victims of 9/11? What about them? Are we as a country so blind as to think we can wage war against religious zealots without using torture to obtain information. These people are as insane as the Japanese kamakazi pilots were in their zeal to kill Americans in WWII. Torture? I dont care how the prisoners are treated as long as we can extract information from them that will save ONE American life ! What do we owe them? A clean bed? Good food? A nice calm interogation? Maybe we should give them medals for creativity in killing American GI's. We owe them NOTHING. They give no quarter and we owe them no quarter. This is a WAR folks and the sooner we start to fight one the sooner we will WIN the damn thing. Its time to bury political correctness and do what has to be done. Otherwise we will trample on the souls that have died in wars past and for what. To say we fight a fair fight. Fair fight my ass. Its time to unleash hell in the middle east or play hell in the very near future. Who here wants to watch another 9/11 and say, If we had only won over "there"! Think about that while you worry over some arab terrorists human rights.....

Anyone who believes that torture is only characterized by physical pain and scarring should read about the Chinese water torture. People go mad from this technique, despite the lack of pain or scars that result from being tortured.

posted by DJ Messiah
People go mad from this technique, despite the lack of pain or scars that result from being tortured.

That's assuming that they're sane in the first place. Homicidal religious zealots don't qualify for sanity IMO.

When I can think of a reason why it's not ok to pure water on a terrorist, i'll post it... I myself would be pulling out fingernails and eyes if i knew one of them knew about a major attack in the works.

When I can think of a reason why it's not ok to pure water on a terrorist, i'll post it... I myself would be pulling out fingernails and eyes if i knew one of them knew about a major attack in the works.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by Stormrider
I went through the same thing with Nixon and went off to Viet Nam because my President said that my country needed me. .. Nixon was wrong then and Bush is wrong now; at least that is how I see it.

Just remember who started VietNam (JFK) and who ended it (Nixon).

By your logic, if Hillary wins in 2008, she will be wrong, too. Right?

Originally posted by Valhall
The last time I saw logic this broken it was in a discussion about how standard versus daylight savings times can mess up cattle's internal clocks....as if they're keeping up with what time it is or something.

And the last time (or three or four times) that you have responded to one of my posts it has been with acrimony and scorn. I don't know what your problem is with me, but if you want to discuss it, send me a u2u.

Did you not read his statement before lobbing this flaming turd at him? He stated clearly that Nixon was in office when he (the poster) was sent to Viet Nam and therefore NIXON is the one he feels was wrong for the impact in his (the poster's) life. He didn't say anything about Nixon being guilty because he was elected after Kennedy's bad decision.

Well he was incorrect in where he placed the blame for the disruption in his life.

There are many members here that were not even alive during the VietNam war. Statements such as his can very easily make some of those members think that Nixon started the war.

Originally posted by DJMessiah
Anyone who believes that torture is only characterized by physical pain and scarring should read about the Chinese water torture. People go mad from this technique, despite the lack of pain or scars that result from being tortured.

Yeah I saw that episode of Mythbusters too, hardly conclusive IMO. BTW, if it makes the overwhelming majority of individuals permanently insane then it qualifies as "permanent bodily injury", who said there have to be physical scars?


[edit on 29-10-2006 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Yeah I saw that episode of Mythbusters too, hardly conclusive IMO.

Why are you assuming I'm talking about mythbusters? This water torture has existed much longer than mythbusters show. It was used in the Russian/Afghan war on captured Afghan mujahadeens, as well as many other torture techniques. My uncle was released from their prison after going crazy, and ended up jumping off a cliff.