Originally posted by IAF101
Trust me Vagabound

Would somebody, anybody, please confirm for me that my name appears as The Vagabond? That blasted "u" always seems to make it into my name when somebody disagrees with me.

the Israelis dont give a fart about the Europeans and why should they?

Because one of their generals subtly asked for permission to shoot at you, and you responded by shooting at them? Granted, nobody particularly wants to be seen kicking Israel's arse given the inexplicable subservience of evangelical Americans to a bunch of Kazar converts who Yaweh never gave a care for, but there is a minute chance of things going bad if Israel doesn't remember that it only exists because the West is amused by how badly it irks the Muslims.

Half if not all of Europe uses American weapons and american planes and american ships.

Last I checked, that would be considered to work in Europe's favor. That being said, the Euros aren't wholly dependent on America either. The neat thing about having a GDP significantly larger than Israel's is that there's a lot you can do on your own.

Most people are Judging the IDF with its performance in Lebanon this past year, which any IDF officer will tell you hardly a fraction of their real potential was utilized due to various political reasons.

There hasn't been a performance to judge the Israelis by in DECADES, that's true, but that's hardly a strength. Between being surrounded by some of the most antiquated and backwards armies owned by any nation outside of Africa and being gunshy as hell after the Israeli people realized that what they did in the 80s was wrong, the IDF has done little but rest on its laurels and get into back-alley brawls in recent memory. I have no doubt Israel could still tar and feather anyone in the Middle East but that's as far as it goes. To find itself against a force that could go tit for tat with them technologically speaking, which exceeded them in number, and which trained to NATO standards would be an unmitigated disaster for Israel.

The UNFIL is a puppet force that if given the chance the IDF would walk over tommorow to take out their supply routes through syria.

Did you even read my initial posts in this thread? I've got spit when it comes to respect for UNIFIL- it's a strange little abortion of a light infantry division headed by a uniformed diplomat and it's only real function is to serve as a trip-wire that would bring down further European forces if Israel did anything stupid. If you think I'm suggesting that Israel can't destroy one little infantry division you're taking me for some kind of a retard. What I'm telling you is that if Israel does what it easily could to UNIFIL, Europe and possibly the United States are going to unleash the kind of plague that would make Moses crap himself and send the IDF to a circle of Hell that Dante was afraid to write about.

the circumstances are against Israel as they are not allowed to act with enough liberty and freedom to ensure their lasting saftey.

Not so. Israel is free, nay, WELCOME, to stop playing "gotcha last" with their neighbors, stop being part of the military problem, and start being part of a social sollution, not unlike the decision that American voters not so subtly suggested that their own government make back on the 7th.

Tell me which European force can deploy and operate in the middle east on its own? Without the US military logistics machine they can't even win against nations like Pakistan or Iran!

Care to inform me of a recent war between Europe and Pakistan or are you just pulling that out of your nethers?

Though it may not be publically aware the level of co-operation between the US military industry and the Israeli defence manufacturers is quite deep and most companies in the US source parts regularly from Israeli manufactureres and companies, not to mention other Israeli owned companies based in Europe.

If you'll recall I alluded to that "not publically aware" fact in my last post. So Israel has defense contractors. Yay for them. Some of the most backwards nations in the world do. It means spit. Yes, Israel makes a buttload of weapons and ammunition. Uzis, original design borrowed heavily from CZ-25. Desert Eagle's, an improvement on an American patent subcontracted to IMI by an American company. Tankrounds designed by Americans for Americans. New unmanned turret systems for American M-113s, electronic warfare packages for American F-15Es with American targeting equipment, etc etc etc. Israel starts with American and European designs then uses American capital to fund minor improvements. The Israelis are peons for Western defense industries when you get right down to it. We let them play because A. it helps prop them up without just handing them money for free, and B. It's cost-effective. C. Arms going from Israeli factories to various unsavory causes don't get American politicians in nearly as much trouble as arms from American factories going to those same places, even though in either case it's happening because America wants it to.

And since we're on the subject of Israeli arms manufacturing and how brilliantly the Israeli defense industry performs, don't you find it Ironic that Israel, which supplies 10% of the global arms trade and deals in Eastern Bloc callibers, is probably producing most of the 7.65 x 39 rounds that end up inside of Israeli citizens?

As for messing with the continent that Napolean spawned, Israel is not on that continent and napolean never made it to the middle east anyway!

Either you define Middle East differently than most people or you don't have the foggiest clue where Egypt is. Either way it has little to do with the rather remote possibility of Napoleon rising from the grave and coming after Israel, but rather just happened to fit in with my accusation that Israel has got some kind of complex over its size.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Because one of their generals subtly asked for permission to shoot at you, and you responded by shooting at them?

Your talking about one of their generals on a death wish or making career suicide or in this case both preferably ??

Israel doesn't remember that it only exists because the West is amused by how badly it irks the Muslims.

Another delusion, that Europe actually has a say in the matter. had it been left to Europe Hitler would still be in control of them and running the rest of the world through proxy. They didnt have it in them to stand up for themselves what makes you think they can stand against anybody else? Its like the Arab delusion that Israel will one day vanish, it isnt ever going to happen. Israel doesnt exsist on anybody's sympathy and nobody should forget that!

Last I checked, that would be considered to work in Europe's favor. That being said, the Euros aren't wholly dependent on America either. The neat thing about having a GDP significantly larger than Israel's is that there's a lot you can do on your own.

Having a bigger GDP eh? You mean all those people on social security making Europe proud or those Arab and African immigrants who actually do all the work in Europe ?
The only thing that works to Europe’s favor is that they don’t have to use their heads and they let Israel do that for them!
The neat thing about having universal conscription is that all your citizens can fight and when you have 5 million of them, it can turn the odds on your side!

Europe both politically and militarily are insignificant, ever since WW2 they have accomplished only one thing and that is glorifing the role of an impotent sidekick, which they show great alacrity in observing. None of the developing powers in asia even takes into consideration the Euros because they know they are inconsequential! The only thing that works in Europe’s favor is that they are associated with the US and the association, which prevents the third world from taking retribution on them!

There hasn't been a performance to judge the Israelis by in DECADES, that's true, but that's hardly a strength. Between being surrounded by some of the most antiquated and backwards armies owned by any nation outside of Africa and being gunshy as hell after the Israeli people realized that what they did in the 80s was wrong, the IDF has done little but rest on its laurels and get into back-alley brawls in recent memory.

Thats a laugh! you mean the technology that is made and developed by Israelis all over the world ? Made by Israeli companies for the west?
Isreal has seen more action than any of the European nations and if you think that one little misadventure is going to shackle the IDF then I guess the US should have been so traumatized after Vietnam that they relinquished their military! Guess what Einstein ( you see the irony here! ) that hasn’t stopped them from marauding across the planet with their rag tag cronies has it ?
As for fighting worthy adversaries, Egypt was the 4th largest military back in the day till the IDF left them in a puddle of piss and waking up from some of the same delusions of being "technologically" on par/tit for tat with Israel.

If you think I'm suggesting that Israel can't destroy one little infantry division you're taking me for some kind of a retard. What I'm telling you is that if Israel does what it easily could to UNIFIL, Europe and possibly the United States are going to unleash the kind of plague that would make Moses crap himself and send the IDF to a circle of Hell that Dante was afraid to write about.

Europe couldnt lift a stone without initiation by the US or somebody else. Even when they were lead to believe they were under imminent threat by Saddam hussein they didnt have the balls to muster a force without the US grabbing them by the collar and dragging them along! As for the US caring if the Euros live or die in Lebanon you have another thing coming! Even if the Israelis arrested the UNFIL and deported them, there would at the most be say, expulsion of the Israeli ambassador from European nations, they dont have it in them to take cyprus forget about Israel! If they did, they would be paying Israel to kill them!!

Not so. Israel is free, nay, WELCOME, to stop playing "gotcha last" with their neighbors, stop being part of the military problem, and start being part of a social sollution, not unlike the decision that American voters not so subtly suggested that their own government make back on the 7th.

Oh condescending platitudes!! Thats original! Havent heard that one before have we
Unfortunately the holier than thou ivory tower junkies dont know what that solution is exactly! Yet there is this condescending attitude that Israel must be part of the solution as if to say there are Israelis running amok in Palestine blowing up falafel stands with women and kids in them !
Obviously, it is the Israelis who have to sustain bombardment to their cities through rocket attacks and fight off wave after wave of suicide bombers while the west dances about singing platitudes from their ivory towers, all the while exhibiting what failures they themselves are in the middle east and elsewhere in the world! Yeah, that inspires confidence in Israel, listen to the guys getting shot to pieces from Afganistan to Iraq! Had the Western powers actually had the balls to stomach a resolution that is practical the problem would have ended years ago but as with everything European there is an acute shortage of balls when the # hits the fan!
Being part of the solution, why doesn’t the West take that advice around the world ?

Care to inform me of a recent war between Europe and Pakistan or are you just pulling that out of your nethers?

Do you even understand the language I have written in or for that matter the context ? It was a comparison, you know like apples Vs oranges ? Apparently, I have led myself to believe that those who post on this thread are capable of more than just rudimentary traces of comprehension.
I was merely trying to point out the starkly obvious inability of any, if not all European powers to take on a nation like of Pakistan or for that matter Iran!
I hope the above statement registers

Uzis, original design borrowed heavily from CZ-25. Desert Eagle's, an improvement on an American patent subcontracted to IMI by an American company. Tankrounds designed by Americans for Americans.

Obviously, it is hard for the chest-beating, egocentric western citizen that conceive that the Jews of lowly Israel actually now shows them how things are done! In time however you will learn as most have.
As for borrowing American designs, it was the Americans who ask Israel to improve their designs because they cant do anything better with it. When the Israeli industry does come up a design it is marketed as a Western design that is produced by the brilliant minds in the West. Israel doesnt care about the glory, as every system that the US sells is only paid back to Israel to use for better systems! Europe end up with the junk that America will not have and is it with this that you imagine that they can even hope to take Israel ??

don't you find it Ironic that Israel, which supplies 10% of the global arms trade and deals in Eastern Bloc callibers, is probably producing most of the 7.65 x 39 rounds that end up inside of Israeli citizens?

Dont you find it ignorant to say this despite the fact that most terrorists dont use Ak 47s against Israeli citizens anymore given the heightened security in Israel and with the IDF marching through their streets day in and day out?

Also dont forget that if these Nato rounds are killing Israeli civilians ( as you earnestly hope! ) then these are surely the same rounds mowing through your troops in the middle east, not to forget the rpg's, mines, etc all friendly touches from people who go the extra mile for the service you pay for!

but rather just happened to fit in with my accusation that Israel has got some kind of complex over its size.

The only complex here is the delusion that Israel exsits due to the mercy of others and that is a delusion the west should learn is far from the truth. Oft it has been that co-operation with one side or the other has helped Israel come by but it has always been about Israel and it will always be about Israel for it was found not with the blessing of any nation, certainly not the European powers! The size of Israel has been one of the key factors that has helped it gain victory so easily over its arab aggressors. You lewd analogy to napolean is ludicrous at best because if expansion had been its aim, 4 victories over its neighbors would surely have not made it relinquish the Sinai for peace.

You know, I was going to type a well thought out reply to IAF101's post above, piece by piece trying to expose the ignorance, lack of knowledge and hatred in it.

But then I realised I'd do better by going and smacking my head up a wall for all it was worth.

Thats the problem you see. The situation has become polarised. Black and White. Extreme Right wing Israeli's/jews and their sponsors vs Extreme right wing Palestinians/mulsims and their sponsors.

The only answer is to let them wipe each other out, because they do not have the brains, courage or conviction to actually talk the matter through and realise that both sides need to compromise and learn from each other.

The sooner the reat of the world learns that, isolates them and leaves them in their own festering pit of violence, the better.

Ah! more condescension. After all they are merely Jews!


[edit on 11-11-2006 by IAF101]

Originally posted by IAF101
Your talking about one of their generals on a death wish or making career suicide or in this case both preferably ??

You obviously have no interest in considering the issue objectively, but only in hammering your talking points no matter how ridiculous you may sound. I recommend that you check out the link in my sig; it explains the psychological mechanisms of such behavior. Were it not for your psychological need to associate yourself with something larger and defend it against all logic, you might question why a division commander in such a precarious tactical and professional position would make such a recommendation against obvious self-interest and determine that he's doing something that the IDF doesn't know much about: the right thing.

Another delusion, that Europe actually has a say in the matter.

The west created your country, fed you satellite intelligence in your wars, and every time the USSR threatened to come in to help its pawns, Israel's American owners stepped in to make sure that peace was negotiated instead.

had it been left to Europe Hitler would still be in control of them and running the rest of the world through proxy.

You've been listening to American pundits too much. Though America was without doubt a valuable ally, the fact of the matter is that some 90% of Germany's forces got thrashed on the Eastern front by Russians, not in France by Americans, and Britain demonstrated the ability to keep the Germans off of their soil without an American declaration of war in 1940. So to the extent that events in Europe 60 years ago are relevant at all, they do little for your argument any

Having a bigger GDP eh?

You've missed the point entirely. You mischaracterizations need not be addressed as that money, wherever it comes from, still funds a great deal more military might than Israel could afford.

The neat thing about having universal conscription

Yeah, conscript militaries usually perform brilliantly, right?

The only thing that works in Europe’s favor is that they are associated with the US

Feel free to back up your hollow rhetoric anytime.

Thats a laugh! you mean the technology that is made and developed by Israelis all over the world ? Made by Israeli companies for the west?

Back it up. Israel didn't originate most of the munitions designs, and what it does originate it doesn't have the captial to fund on its own. Israel puts together small components for American designs or derivatives thereof for companies owned by American investors, regardless of where those companies may have their headquarters; that hardly makes them innovators.

Isreal has seen more action than any of the European nations

In their role as police officers, perhaps. In largescale modern military engagements against modern opponents? You've got to be kidding.

As for fighting worthy adversaries, Egypt was the 4th largest military back in the day till the IDF left them in a puddle of piss and waking up from some of the same delusions of being "technologically" on par/tit for tat with Israel.

My point exactly! Oh back in the day, back in the day, when we were the first to strike against an enemy that had 1/3 of its troops already deployed elsewhere, whose president wouldn't leave the generals alone and made them alter their plans 4 times, and who relied on soviet equipment: notorious for trading quality for quantity, we really cleaned house. Those backwards Egyptians never knew what hit them. But Israel's first meeting with a professional and properly equipmed military, if it should ever come, will be a complete shock to them.

Even when they were lead to believe they were under imminent threat by Saddam hussein

Okay, I think that pretty much sums up what you know about geopolitics. Imminent threat? Jesus, that's a good one.

most terrorists dont use Ak 47s against Israeli citizens anymore

Of course not, the 75 casualties (dead and wounded) at Bint Jbeil were caused by slingshots.
And the kidnappings of Eliyahu Yitzhak Asheri, Gilad Shalit, and others were not done at gunpoint, I'm sure. The terrorists just asked them nicely to come with us, and they did.

Also dont forget that if these Nato rounds are killing Israeli civilians

7.62 x 39 isn't a nato round. If you know so much about the defense industry you ought to know that. For that matter you should have picked it up when I mentioned it was Eastern Bloc in my last post. 7.62 NATO is x51mm.


I'm done playing with you here. You're obviously not going to get it. If you're a true believer, we can take this to the debate forum and see how you do when you're expected to present more than unsupported talking points.

Nice try, Vagabond. I gave up trying to talk sense into this dude. Don't have the time and inclination to discuss something with anyone who not only believes Israel to be the source of all the worlds technology, but with a slight of hand, completely put down the people that it will come to rely on in the future.

Let's just imagine what would happen in the ME should the EU and US wash their hands of Israel.... Alot has changed in 30 years and I imagine the IDF would have a nasty shock...

Israel spies on the US all the time and is constantly being caught with their hands in the cookie jar. You do not see this in the news because of the tremendous control that Israel has over the United States. Their spies are simply extradited back to Israel. This incident did not even make it into the mainstream news media in the United States also because of the control that Israel has over the US. I am constantly amused when people refer to Israel as being under the control of the US when it is the other way around. It is far past time for my country to cut their ties with the largest terrorist in the Mid East. Israel is NOBODY'S friend.

Originally posted by groingrinder
Israel spies on the US all the time and is constantly being caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

In all fairness this guy was NOT an Israeli spy, he was a spy who sold or gave away military design secrets to a corporation/businessman in Israel as well as other countries.He was not a Jonathan Pollard type who worked solely for them. What is wrong is that rather then report it immediately, the info was taken/bought and used for their own benefit and of course, our security was not a concern to these people buying or taking the info.

They did not mention anything about the government of Israel, but of course who else would have a need to buy info like that unless it was someone that had ties into our own Military since they jointly develop many projects together or for us. Maybe this is why they all of a sudden declared that security clearance would be denied to dual citizen Israelis just recently?

Again You missed my point. California could easily out produce isreals gross yield per meter of agricultural biomass if it wanted to. But it doesn't have to. Theres so much produce we literally have to cap what the farmers harvest. Doing anything else would be a waste of money. The point about MR. Burbank stands. He knew a little bit about producing the worlds greatest produce, thats why his patented strains are still the strains of choice around the world...not isreals, who may sell their genetic stalk of oranges and grapes that grow in the desert to other countries, but not like good old USA does. Oh and yeah...grapes growing in the desert...hundreds of square miles of em growing in the mojave desert right along the highway for anybody to see...and see...and see...until you can't stand looking at irrigated farms in the desert while traveling to say Las Vegas.

Water is not as critical in producing flavorful oranges. Sunlight, which produces sugars, the gentetic ability for the strain to convert sunlight into sugars, and the bonding of those chemicals with nutrient in the soil, are critical. Most needed nutrient for tasty oranges. Phosporus, and potassium. But the potasium source is usually ash. Wow they can find wood ash and infuse it into the soil, what geniuses.

Plants only need enough water to create a wick system for the nutrients to travel up the stem and to fill the cells of the leaves so that they remain their physical integrity. Not as much as you would think either. just enough for the soil to be about as moist as a chocalate cake. Again big fancy irrigation systems aren't that influencial to the plants. Underwatering stunts overall yield but not so much yield quality and farmers would prefer to err with under than over watering. Over watering rots roots and creates all sorts of micronutrient problems.

And we do have small farms with their unique products that spend lots of money to get huge yeilds out of small plots. It's not rocket science, and again nothing to be overly proud of. They are doing what they have to do to get enough produce,but they aren't impressing the world.

Oh you better believe that wild oranges are very much a weed. I've seen oranges grow to tree size from gutters. to lemon trees growing 15 feet out of old piles of bricks and gravel. Ever cut down an orange tree? They come back.

Wrong Again,

SF guys don't go up against overwhelming odds thats just stupid and a waste of money. SF guys do things that require "special" skill sets. Tasks that other people just don't have the in depth training in. 100 soldiers, no more like 40 enemy soldiers is a big problem for any isolated SF unit. They will fall back and live to fight onther day. Maturity is also one of the skill sets required.

A CAR-15 is not some call sign for a british police car somewhere. It's not even a car- it's a gun. Wanna guess which gun it is?

No you are right, all SF groups don't use HKs. They prefer them. They still frequently have to use other less desireable guns and weapons to either blend in or disinform any investigators later.

My circle of friends are pretty varied. See I get along with a wide swath of humanity. Some of my friends are buisness execs. Others are lowly musicians. Some are humble gardners. Some are scientists...and some are in the military. My SF friends don't include SAS,GSG,french commandos, or chinese Zungdui. They are as follows. 4 since jr high school life long friends who are in the US Marine Force/1st Recon. Some serious hard ass's. My sisters fiance is a US Air Force Paramedical Rescue/and forward air controller. (Pretty hardcore SF group...ask anyone who knows.) And 1 career SEAL from one of the west cost teams (this guys got stories...some not so pretty, he's been in just about every conflict since 91). These people do have friends, and guess what they confide in their friends somethimes...who else are they going to? THeir Mom? I couls see that happening-"So I was watching these tutsis kill this 6 year old girl but I wans't aloud to engage, she just kept on screaming while thye were pouring industrial lye on here while she was in that pit...I just wished she would hurry up and die...I can't take her screaming. Ihad to order my men to turn their backs they wouldn't stop crying but we couldn't engage." "Hey! mom! where you going! why you leaving? these are things I need to work out" No they go to their trusted friends and have a beer at the bar...they are human.
ANd they also introduce you to their other friends who sometimes share the same job description, and they will talk a little too. Believe me their are some topics I can't get any of them to talk about. But what guns they use, basic operating procedures, and what their day jobs are like are coversations they do have from time to time.

The Liberty thing has been going around for some time, but there was an aspect of it that never made sense to me. I have a similar issue with the subject of this thred.

What credible reason exists for Israel attacking the USS Liberty on purpose? Considering what they stood to lose taking such an action there would have to be an airtight motive behind it.

Similarly, why would Israel attack a member of NATO, who is also an ally and military supplier to Israel, on purpose? The explanation that the pilots had a chip on their shoulder doesn't wash, it isn't like the average Israeli harbors animosity towards modern day Germany. Again, a credible motive is absent.

If you look up "friendly fire" in wikipedia you'll find scores of similar examples as the USS Liberty. If every other country in the world has made a similar mistake, both countries insist it was an error and no real motive exists, why is it so difficult to believe that the attack was probably not intentional.

I mean, is the example below any more/less likely than the Liberty incident?

1968 - USS Boston, USS Edson, USCGC Point Dume, HMAS Hobart and two US patrol boats, PCF-12 and PCF-19 are attacked by US aircraft on June 17 in the Vietnam War.[6] Several sailors were killed and PCF-19 was sunk. [7]

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
The Liberty thing has been going around for some time, but there was an aspect of it that never made sense to me. I have a similar issue with the subject of this thred.

What credible reason exists for Israel attacking the USS Liberty on purpose? Considering what they stood to lose taking such an action there would have to be an airtight motive behind it.

It makes perfectly sense. Based on the reports drawn after the attack it became crystal clear that the purpose of Israel could have been to fully destroy the Liberty; prevent survivors from telling the story. Egypt would then be blamed and the US would have had a reason to send boots to the area and militarily support Israel.

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
Similarly, why would Israel attack a member of NATO, who is also an ally and military supplier to Israel, on purpose? The explanation that the pilots had a chip on their shoulder doesn't wash, it isn't like the average Israeli harbors animosity towards modern day Germany. Again, a credible motive is absent.

Agree, however, I could imagine that Israel wants to show those NATO countries not to try to give Israel any order to do or to not do anything it doesn't want. The constant airflights over Lebanon are an example. It would be great if France would actually shoot them all out of the air as Israel should obey International regulations like other. Instead, Israel doesn't care about international regulations and this incident only acts as a confirmation to NATO ''allies'' to not mess with Israel.



Originally posted by Shaktimaan
I mean, is the example below any more/less likely than the Liberty incident?

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
1968 - USS Boston, USS Edson, USCGC Point Dume, HMAS Hobart and two US patrol boats, PCF-12 and PCF-19 are attacked by US aircraft on June 17 in the Vietnam War.[6] Several sailors were killed and PCF-19 was sunk. [7]

You ''forget'' to mention that it were Israel torpedo boats that took the US Liberty under fire after it had been badly damaged by an Israel jet. To my awareness US ships carry the American flag... The only reason the US did not make a fuss about is Israel's strategic location, especially since many surrounding countries supported the Soviet Union.



[edit on 11-12-2006 by Mdv2]

It makes perfectly sense. Based on the reports drawn after the attack it became crystal clear that the purpose of Israel could have been to fully destroy the Liberty; prevent survivors from telling the story. Egypt would then be blamed and the US would have had a reason to send boots to the area and militarily support Israel.

OK, let's do a basic cost/benefit analysis, because I'm having a lot of trouble believing that Israel would do this without a very compelling motive.

By the day that the Liberty was attacked Israel had already destroyed the Egyptian airforce and beaten back their army into the Sinai. They very much had the upper hand in the war on all fronts but the Egyptian front had been a particular success at this stage.

So, what did they have to gain? Getting American assistance against Egypt? Egypt who was already beaten by this point? OK.

But what were they risking by attempting this kind of ruse? Well, America and France were their primary military donors at this point. If they were caught it would be likely that they would not only lose both of their support but that they may actually be attacked by America as well. In fact, if they attacked an American ship on purpose it is probable that they would, at the very least, face sanctions by the members of NATO and possibly face NATO troops in combat.

So, I am supposed to believe that in order to trick America into joining a war that Israel had all but already won, Israel was prepared to risk her relationship with her sole allies, risk economic estrangement and even possible military retribution? Remember also that without American aid Israel would be a sitting duck for the Arab armies who were being supplied by the USSR. So you actually consider it likely that Israel would risk her very existence on a hairbrained scheme like this?

OK, maybe you do. But in the event that Israel DID think that this was a dandy idea, don't you think they would have made absolutely sure that the Liberty sunk, and sunk FAST? I would imagine that it would have been the most meticulously planned act of the entire war considering the possible consequences if they failed. But the Liberty didn't sink. Why is that? Why did Israel attack it with less than decisive force in the first sortie? THAT'S the part that really makes no sense.

You ''forget'' to mention that it were Israel torpedo boats that took the US Liberty under fire after it had been badly damaged by an Israel jet.

Is "forget" typed in quotes as a way for you to insinuate that I actually believe that Israel attacked the Liberty on purpose and am trying to cover it up?

My point here was that there are countless of instances of armies attacking themselves and their allies accidentally throughout written history. In Gulf War One most casualties came from friendly fire. If the US armed forces can mistakenly attack its own soldiers in current wars with modern equipment then why is it impossible to believe that the inexperienced and tiny Israeli Navy could not have made a similar mistake 40 years ago and attacked the wrong foreigner's ship?

It's not of course, which is why there isn't really any serious debate about the Liberty incident.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
The question is why would Israel do this? For fun? There isn't enough information in this article.

Why would they sink the USS Liberty?

Israel seems to have a history of irrational acts, whats one more.

And there is no way a german ship could open fire on an israeli war plane. Doing so would open old wounds.

If Israel had of sank that vessel, Germany would have apologised for doing something so stupid as being in international waters on a UN Mission.

Your theory sounds pretty plausible, Conspiracy Theorist, I admit.

Israel seems to have a history of irrational acts, whats one more.

Do they? I think you could make a case pretty easily that they have a history of unethical or intolerant acts. Or even of unwise or rash acts.

But I can't think of anything much that one would classify as "irrational." Meaning, whatever actions they took had a clear purpose and motive calculated to lead to a specifically desired outcome. (And to be honest, I think the same could be said of the Palestinians and pretty much every other player in this extended conflict. You don't become a leader of a Middle Eastern country or movement unless you are extremely shrewd. I don't think anyone over there making influential decisions can afford to act irrationally. What some of the regular people-on-the-street do is a different story however.)

But I'm open to being convinced. What sort of stuff are you thinking about?

In my previous post I meant Shaktimaan, not Mr Conspiracy.