Israeli F-16's Fire At German Naval Vessels

Isreal has every right to shoot at any ships they like if the Germans don't like it they can go home and cry about it to someone who cares. I personally think the Germans should count themselves very lucky to still be afloat if the Isrealis had wanted to they could have sunk it easily. The UN is a complete failure and should just be disbanded before they become anymore of a laughing stock and keep out of Isreali and American business.

Bush? Seriously, if you really think this way, shame on you, you're not the king of the world. You're not above the law. If you kill someone, you go to prison. If you kill an enemy soldier on purpose, you should go in prison too or be considered as a war act.

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus
Its in german and i translated part of the first 2 paragraphs, if i find anything in english ill post it but its nice to find a german view of this incident as there does seem to be some confusion involving this incident that is apparently 2 different incidents getting mixed up.

Here is Googles English translation.

The German participation in the UN-mission before the Lebanese coast led to first entangling. A speaker of the Ministry of Defense in Berlin confirmed that the Israeli Air Force over a ship of the German navy fired shots. An Israeli army spokeswoman denied against the fact that any shot had been delivered on the ship. After its representation a helicopter of the German ship had ascended, without this had been co-ordinated with Israel. Combat aircraft would then have forced the helicopter to the reversal. Again in the citizen of Berlin Ministry one contradicted to this description.

The Israeli Secretary of Defense Amir Perez insured its German colleague Franz Josef young by telephone on Thursday that its country does not intend to proceed aggressively against German armed forces. After representation of the “Stuttgart newspaper” there was “on diplomatic channels” clear criticism at the procedure of the Israeli Air Force. “Also the Israeli Ambassador in Berlin had themselves to listen to some”, reports the newspaper with reference to well informed government circles. In the coming week young in Israel is expected.
In the meantime it turned out that the German ship entangled into the incident does not belong to the international employment federation Unifil. A speaker of the Ministry of Defense in Berlin confirmed corresponding reports of the “Stuttgart newspaper” and the “world” on Thursday. It concerns the fleet service ship “Alster”, which is “in the context of Unifil” before the Lebanese coast in use, not however part of the UN-mission led by the German navy.

No helicopter
On the “Alster” there is no helicopter according to these data. The incident, with which a German helicopter was pressed by Israeli fliers, described by the Israeli army spokeswoman, already took place days ago, without this attention would have excited. There is “no temporal or geographical connection” with the incident of Tuesday, said the ministerial spokesman.
According to data citizens of Berlin of the Ministry of Defense had flown over six Israeli F-16 hunters the German naval ship in small height in the Tuesday morning. “Infrared decoys” were fired thrown off and from one of the machines of two unaimed shots into air. According to Israeli data the incident the close Israeli-Lebanese border on the height of the northIsraeli place Rosch Hanikra occurred.

Military flights continue
The German navy drives since 16 October in the UN-order patrol before the coast of Lebanon, in order to prevent smuggling of arms for the radical-Islamic Hisbollah in Lebanon. Medium reports over changed conditions for the German employment in the context of the Unifil mission were disclaimed by the citizen of Berlin Ministry of Defense. After a report of the “South German newspaper” the application type were limited clearly. The opposition demands clearing-up and insight into appropriate minutes.
Perez announced meanwhile a continuation of the Israeli military flights over the neighboring country Lebanon. As long as Beirut does not convert the UN-resolution 1701, the flights are necessary as safety precaution, quoted Israeli media Perez after a meeting with the European Union chief diplomat Javier Solana. Perez demanded in particular a release of the two Israeli soldiers kidnapped into Lebanon and an organized monitoring of the Lebanese-Syrian border for the protection from smuggling of arms. (N24.de, nz)

Translated Link from Google


This part confused me a little

It concerns the fleet service ship “Alster”, which is “in the context of Unifil” before the Lebanese coast in use, not however part of the UN-mission led by the German navy.

So is this a supply ship or something?



I still say that there is a lot of manipulation of truth. They refer to something that happened a week ago when they know it had nothing even to do with the Alster in defense of the over-shoots. Otherwise why even talk about a helicopter.

The one thing about a compulsive liar is that after a while when they have told so many different stories, they no longer can differentiate one tale from the other. Here is one incident and Peretz inadvertantly divulges another incident that no one was even aware of before LOL

Yeah appears to be a replenishment ship, which was resupplying the ships attatched to the UNIFIL mission. Not surprising that the Israelis buzzed this one, it's a bit less intimidating than a Sachsen class Frigate with its Standard 2's - something I don't think the Israelis are prepared to take on...

Interesting, but I believe that Germany uses the RAM as a CIWS platform, and that's all a ship of this class might have for defense. The Israelis knew that the RAM is an infrared seeking missile. Yup, not at all deliberate and planned.

[edit on 27-10-2006 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Interesting, but I believe that Germany uses the RAM as a CIWS platform, and that's all a ship of this class might have for defense. The Israelis knew that the RAM is an infrared seeking missile. Yup, not at all deliberate and planned.

[edit on 27-10-2006 by WestPoint23]

Ok, it's all getting confusing now. So a fleet tanker got buzzed, not the Brandenburg class that was originally reported? So what happened near the frigate? I read the translation, but it's a bit garbled. Why are the IDF saying one thing and the Germans are claiming there are now two seperate incidents?

As to your update above, Westy, the Brandenburgs (the original F218 reported) have RAM as a CIWS but also have Sea Sparrow launchers as well (16 of them). As for the Fleet tanker, I imagine it would just have a CIWS system of some kind, if anything.

EDIT: The Alster has no armament of any kind.

[edit on 27/10/06 by stumason]

Originally posted by Shamanator
Isreal has every right to shoot at any ships they like if the Germans don't like it they can go home and cry about it to someone who cares. I personally think the Germans should count themselves very lucky to still be afloat if the Isrealis had wanted to they could have sunk it easily. The UN is a complete failure and should just be disbanded before they become anymore of a laughing stock and keep out of Isreali and American business.

Its posts like this - and the sentiments behind it, and the crass ignorance and disregard that its displays - that cause people to fly jetliners into skyscrapers.

Controversial I know, but its true.

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by Shamanator
Isreal has every right to shoot at any ships they like if the Germans don't like it they can go home and cry about it to someone who cares. I personally think the Germans should count themselves very lucky to still be afloat if the Isrealis had wanted to they could have sunk it easily. The UN is a complete failure and should just be disbanded before they become anymore of a laughing stock and keep out of Isreali and American business.

Its posts like this - and the sentiments behind it, and the crass ignorance and disregard that its displays - that cause people to fly jetliners into skyscrapers.

Controversial I know, but its true.

completely true. anyways so basically shamanator your saying that israel and the US have the right to destroy any ship in the sea, to ruin or end as many lives as they want from any nationality they please destroy any vehicle they please to destroy, because they're over everybody else, and "higher" than all other people... you know i think this kind of thinking was really prevalent and adopted widely in the 1930's, and we all know what happened at that time... i suggest people like shmanator start changing there thoughts and setting there minds straight for Nukes start getting dropped....

I agree completely. Where is the being reported in the American Media? Link?

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Originally posted by Vitchilo

Maybe it's just Payback time from WW2.

This is what I though... maybe the two pilots are kind of extremists and want a revenge for the WW2... and I hope that Germany will blow up any kind of threat, even if it's the poor little Israël full of zionists, not jews.

[edit on 25-10-2006 by Vitchilo]

It seems no one posting likes Israel very much.

I noticed a few saying out Germany should have ... blown them out of the sky..

I love people who love peace unless its violence against Israel.

Germany wouldnt dare do it because Israel could kick their @$%, they are a powerful country. They wouldnt do it also because the world would right away see germans killing Jews.. which of course would be taken out of context just to make Israel look inocent. Israel also has friends in high places, we put them on a higher priority then German, and especially France.

What do you agree to?
The bit you quoted below about Israel being able to mess up the Germans..
or the bit about the comments that cause people to go suicidal..
Off topic but here's my two cents :

I haven't seen a single anti-terrorism operation work completely to success w/o convincing the terrorists to give up their arms rather than use brute force on them..
Its a simple truth..

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Interesting, but I believe that Germany uses the RAM as a CIWS platform, and that's all a ship of this class might have for defense. The Israelis knew that the RAM is an infrared seeking missile. Yup, not at all deliberate and planned.

[edit on 27-10-2006 by WestPoint23]

German Sachsen class frigate does indeed have SM-2 missiles, along with RAM.

Sachsen Class (F124) Air Defense Frigates, article by Naval-Technology.com

They really are state of the art ships; they certainly could've responded had that been required.

I think the Israelis are testing the UN's resolve. They want to know what they can get away with, so that they won't be guessing blindly if they decide they have a target they really have to hit. UNIFIL rules of engagement say self-defense only, but the Israelis need to know what the discipline of the force is. If they get painted when they conduct illegal fly-overs they have reason to suspect that they can't make illegal strikes unless they are willing to take out UNIFIL air defenses before striking Hizbollah.

This is important because Israel is planning to make strikes on smuggling tunnels in Gaza, and they're probably anticipating a reaction that they might want to retaliate for.

On a related note, the Israelis probably want to create political problems at home for the UNIFIL members, because on the 20th General Pellegrini hinted at a change in the rules of engagement being needed to stop the over-flights of Lebanon. Incidents like this will probably become more common rather than less. The Israelis want the Europeans to be afraid that this will lead to conflict, thus causing the defense-only rules of engagement to stand. If the rules of engagement do change, I think Israel will try to create an incident where they get shot at but don't get hit. At that point they'll be interested in making UNIFIL buckle to domestic outcry and go home.

Originally posted by Souljah
Maybe it's just Payback time from WW2.

Geeee I wonder what headlines a Syrian airplane, firing at z'Gehmanz would make...

But it's Only Israel - move along, nothing to see here...

WW3 may start sooner than we think. I just hope Israel is not the initiator, such a small country would be very easy to destroy with today's tech, and all the new tech that comes out immediately after a WW starts. So it was foolish to fire shots at a German ship, I hope it was a mistake or something, because if it was intentional, the german army have better start watching their backs now.

The Israelis are playing a risky game for the reasons I mentioned earlier, but I consider the odds of a war by miscalculation virtually zero. I believe this in large part because of the nature of the UNIFIL force.

It's a strange little light infantry division which unlike most token forces doesn't have the advantage of a safe rear area occupied by inferior but at least friendly units. It's head is almost as much a politician as a general: He's been attatched to foreign MoDs and in international forces for several years. He and his officers must understand that their role is not actually to be a military force but to form a substantive line in the sand which the Israelis know better than to step over. The Israelis could indeed step on and over that line on a whim, though not without losses, but there would be hell to pay. Seeing as UNIFIL does not want to be stepped on and understands that its role is to deter, not provoke the Israelis, they will be exceedingly forebearing.

That's why Pellegrini asked the UN to be ready to change the rules of engagement rather than just giving his troops a more liberal interpretation of self-defense (for instance instructing SAM batteries to lock on to any Israeli jets approaching their positions as a precaution). The goal is that the Israelis will get the message then without actually coming into close confrontation and stop the overflights with minimal risk of a casualty-producing incident.


Now, if the Israelis don't get the message, things get interesting. I do not believe the UN will continue to maintain that line in the sand once they already know the Israelis will step over it. They will write it off as a failed bluff and pull out. I could be wrong though. There is a possibility that the Europeans have had it and will want to either pull the force then come back or reinforce it again and try to hold it. The democrats may want to take America with to rebuild ties to our allies.

That creates an really interesting standoff in the American government. The executive branch does control our UN team and our treaties, but the congress can circumvent that by declaring war, but then we're there without the UN because the in this case the executive has presumably seen to it that a UN resolution was vetoed, and the executive as CinC can undermine the prosecution of the war. Besides there's the unilateralist thing and the whole objective of making a stand is defeated, so it's not a legitimate problem in 2006 even if the Dems win, in my opinion.
If this is still going on in 2008 though (which I doubt) then the UN has a much better chance of actually standing its ground if it likes. And of course all this is setting aside the fact that the European nations can declare war together without the UN if they so choose.

With or without American participation, a conflict with Israel arising over a threat or action against UNIFIL doesn't change in the broad strokes. You've got a light infantry division holed up on highground between the blue line and the Litani. The Israelis are likely to hit them from the air and strike at the narrowest point (East of Shebaa Farms) to cut them off, cross the Litani, and surround them to be used as a bargaining chip as they did with the Egyptian 3rd Army in '73. So the objective for Israel wouldn't be to destroy UNIFIL, just to get through it and take out it's air defenses, then use it to keep the Europeans at bay while moving across the Litani to get at their targets.

The mission for the UN then is to deal a quick and decisive blow to the IAF and Navy and land an amphibious and/or airborne operation behind the Litani to protect UNIFIL's rear and reinforce them. They'd really be better off to have American B-2s hitting the IAF on the ground when they made their move, because I think Israel's homefield advantage is biggest when it comes to defending their airspace. On the other hand, NATO airforces that spent years figuring out how to intercept long range missions by the USSR may have a doctrinal advantage and may manage to outsmart the IAF and force them into the wrong engagements in the air, particularly if the IAF starts burning fuel by trying to intercept them early, or if the IAF operates too heavily in Syria or Lebanon.
Hasty mobilization is the biggest question then, because I think the Europeans can take the Israelis once they've established secure airspace and landed reinforcements in a defensive position. I don't have the answer on UN mobilization tough.

This is a really dumb thread. All of the pontificating over whether Israel is trying to start a war with Germany and forecasting what would happen if Israel fought, say, France has no bearing on reality. You may as well be arguing over who would win in a fight, Godzilla or Israel.

Germany, France and Israel are allies. France was Israel's main supplier of military gear, including jets up until 30 years ago. Germany is supplying them with subs and other equipment.

Not to mention the fact that Germany and France are members of NATO! Israel is not randomly attacking members of NATO. If they did, believe me, it would be big news.

Furthermore the insinuation that Israel justifies their actions by crying about the holocaust is not only obnoxious, it is untrue. The only thing close to it I can think of is that they refuse to allow other nations do the job of securing Israel's borders on the argument that they will not allow their security to be anyone's job but Israel's. Considering the mediocre job UN troops usually do I do not think this is an unreasonable argument.

This thread just wants to rake up hate towards Israel. There are a lot of misconception towards what the IDF wants to accomplish with their runs over Lebanon. The runs are more about bringing to notice the illegal supply of arms and ammunition to theHizbullah and other terrorists in and around Israel.

This is being blown way out of proportion because its israel and hating the Zionists/ not jews ( what ever that means! ) is in vouge with the liberal agenda.

BTW If any of you think that a German navy *what ever class* is going to intimidate the IDF then you surely have no idea as to the ability of an IDF pilot!

Typical response there, IAF..

"they hate the Jews! Anti-Semites! Waaa!"

Always the same when israel is criticised.

Get over it.

As to IAF pilots being so good. Well, I doubt that. No real competition in the past 30 years, so how do you know? No expierience apart from dropping bombs on guerillas and children, so I would hardly declare that the IAF could out do sophisticated, western AA systems. Rather arrogant statement, if you ask me. You just don't know and the F-16 is hardly the pinnacle in aviation technology.

It is a typical response to the typical bigoted behaviour !

I never used the word anti-semites but you are free to consider it yourself if you like !

If think it is arrogant so be it, that doesnt change the fact that they are. Most Western AA systems use Israeli technology and expertise. Most of Israels weapons industries are the principal suppliers to most western nations. As for experience, they have plenty with 4 wars and countless air sorties through out much of Israels exsistence. Moreover the Israeli F-16 cannot be compared to other F-16's because they use completely different avionics and radars that are produced in Israel .

How do you know that the RAF isnt really a military version of FedEx for the USAF when they havent really seen any action since the Falklands ?

Last time I checked most western AA use american/british/french/german tech. Isreal wouldn't have nearly as much experience even dealing with foriegn aircraft as other countries do. What a few air squbbles here and there with their neighbors? Please...most western nations have been preparing for war against real big dogs with real airforces. THis is typical isrealie sentement that they do everything better. I've even been told by them that they make better chocolate then the swiss, they grow better oranges than anywhere else..yadda yadda yadda. Please.

Last time I checked the uzi, and galil weren't the weapon of choice for most western militaries either. Not with HK around. And why do most of their weapon systems closley resemble american weapon systems. They totally jacked the M1-A1 design and apparently it's easier to disable to boot. Yeah the best at everything, paticularily target accuasition.