Philosophical Proof

I tend to favor the opinions of the ancient philosophers when dealing with things that are difficult, if not seemingly impossible, to prove. "Though you cannot prove to me that something does not exist, and I cannot prove that it does, It does not change the fact of whether it exists or not.
Thus, no matter how much evidence someone gives to prove that I exist, Someone on the other side of the planet could still believe that my existance is just a hoax. Even if I do really exist.
Therefore, aliens could still exist, no matter what anyone tries to say or prove wrong. Although, I do find it hard to accept the self centered and egocentrical attitude that we are the only inhabbited planet in this vast universe. And I highly doubt that we would be the most advanced race either.

Weird.. no answer from our so-called 'sceptics'..

I lean toward the theory that aliens exist, because the universe is do big. I can't prove that though, and I don't try to argue. It's just something that you can't prove or disprove, simple as that.

Certainly the universe is teeming with life, much of it intelligent.

I just find the probability that the intelligent life has 1) noticed us, 2) thought us interesting, 3) expended the energy to get here, and 4) got close enough to be noticed by us to be so extremely low as to be zero for all practical purposes.

What William said.

(and that, in general, is the attitude of most folks in the engineering/aeronautical/astronomical fields. And of many skeptics, too.)

1) noticed us/We are endeavouring to find extra-terrastrial life.
2) thought us interesting/We would find any form of intelligent life interesting.
3) expended the energy to get here/Depending on technology status we would travel to study intelligent life,As it would give us indications into ourselves and the evolution of intelligent life.
4) got close enough to be noticed by us /Again it would depend on our own tech status.

I have an open mind.I'm neither a fanatic nor a debunker.

Ask yourself the same 4 question about European behaviour towards an undiscovered American continent and you'll find we did notice life there,we did find it interesting,we did expend energy getting there,and we were notice.

This is Just an alternative view.

This is just my "two cents" worth on the subject. I believe the "proof " to not only the existence of extra-terrestrial life but the facts that "it" also played/plays a very large role in mankind's past, present and future is right in front of our faces. However, we the "general public" need to understand what it is we are really looking for. We need to understand how programmed we really are in our belief systems and what makes us think the way we do. We tend to base our beliefs and judgments on our internal programming, and that can work great for us in our everyday world but could impair us in other areas of interpretations. In short, we may very well be bringing tools to the job that are simply of no use. We may also be limiting our capability of searching based on our interpretatation of what it is we seek.

We tend to bring socket sets and screw drivers to dismantle crashed UFOs by our own understanding and experience.

Example: If "I" showed you a picture of a "Real" UFO and the picture showed a close up of a disc made of something that looked like a very shiny metallic aluminum surface and was the size of car and was on the floor of an old warehouse, would you believe me?. The answer is most likely "No" Why? because first you don't know anything about me or how I got the photo. Secondly, the photo would most likely fall short of what your "belief system" tells you a UFO should look like up-close because it looks like a metal you can identify as aluminum (man made). So now your "expectation belief system" may be talking to you also. Ok, now lets run the same scenario again only this time it is George W. Bush holding the photo and telling you "Ladies and gentlemen, we are not alone in the universe" on NBC nightly news. I submit to you that within 6 months or less many would doubt the photo was real and would wonder what the "Gov" was up to again :-) Why? :-)


We need to understand something here, If "The Gov" does have, and I believe it does, based upon many facts, have a "crashed" UFO in some safe place somewhere, then they have the most valuable object on Earth to mankind. The "Holly Freaking Grail" would not come close. Simply the most important "thing" on the planet to us all at this time. Do you really believe they are going to give it to us? or even tell the truth about it? LOL would you?. No way in hell will you ever get the truth from the US Gov unless somehow the "Poop hits the fan" for reasons we may not really want to know. And even then, the "truth" would be severely tailored to what would be beneficial for the Govt. to give. But I will tell you this, if we have it, you can bet it's not just sitting in some warehouse collecting dust. And if it's the genuine article, as our belief systems think it should be, then it may take hundreds of years or longer to unlock the secrets it holds.

I do NOT wish to debate what none of us understand but will say this concerning reasons given on this topic. Again, my opinion! (Opinions are not necessarily facts)

1. Noticed Us- I think our planet is nothing less then "Fantastic" in all that it beholds and would well be well worth visiting and spreading seed. Our sun is young to middle aged and the human race is great entertainment at best. :-) But keep in mind, we have no idea what is of value to an advanced race/being/entity from somewhere else may be. Our perception of value will most certainly be different in many ways. I do believe the visits started a long long time ago based on our perception of time and space.

2. Find Us Interesting- We are a gas!!! we are so bad it's funny but we are also interesting to say the least, however, we ARE also dangerous to other life forms and to our planet and to our selves. We are like a bull in a china shop and I really think we are at a "critical point" in our existence.

3.Expended The Energy To Get Here- Again our perception of our beliefs based on our interruption of physics at present to our neck of the woods so to speak. We have no clue as to the needs of "unknown" energy to visit us from a far or within. Hell. energy as we know it may not even be a factor in what it is we do not know. Think of the lucky guy who climbed into the crashed UFO and looked out and said "Wonder where the hell the engine is" LOL. All we know is what energy we would need based on our interruption of the "laws" at this time to travel to the closest star is more then we can handle at this time to make it worth sending someone. Just two hundred years ago on this planet, a trip to a neighboring state was a large expenditure of time and resources, in our very own recent history, we can see how this has changed, so how can we really determine, in their circumstances, what is or is not a considerable expenditure of energy to get here. We may be very surprised again.

4. The Hubble telescope is a great tool, but what will we have in say 500 years? food for thought LOL

Whether it all shakes down to be true, false or never proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, given the amount of thought, opinion and research dedicated to the subject alone says something all in itself.

"Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers."... Bernard Haisch


[Edited on 29-11-2002 by Skeptical Believer]

Originally posted by John bull 1
Ask yourself the same 4 question about European behaviour towards an undiscovered American continent and you'll find we did notice life there,we did find it interesting,we did expend energy getting there,and we were notice.

Different situation. Europeans of the day were looking for a more efficient route to the riches of the east. They bumped into this continent then found some exploitable resources.

Originally posted by John bull 1
1) noticed us/We are endeavouring to find extra-terrastrial life.

But have you actually considered a posibility that "extra-terrastrial life" found us and a very long time ago.

And what's more maybe it's still around us but they are so much more advanced than us, or shall i say humans are so much more daft and ignorant than them that we failed to make any notice of them?

How could they have found us a long time ago? We haven't been making noticeable noise until about 80 years ago.

Do you really think that humans are the first and only masters of this planet?

Why don't we stop rejecting everything and for once accept something.


Let us think of them as

Predators of the Universe



And how predators find their prey?


Not even in your wildest hallucinations you people could imagine how different some members of �ET� can actually be.
Thinking in black and white you also assume that the only advancements they likely to have, have got to be technological. Time as you humans understand is also a cause for your concern

All of you assume that aliens, if they exist, will have a normal appearance, an egg head, black eyes, grey skin, and they will scan the space for any signals you people might happen to send. Afterwards they are likely to stop by for an inter-galactic tea party (would be rude not to) and then share their �technological advancements�.

Then you will sure hope to see ads like this in your newspaper

�Short breaks: Spend a weekend on the moon, choose one of 5 purpose build resorts in the Sea of Tranquility. Free excursion to the Tycho and Maginus craters! All for one unbelievable price of $97.99! (Excluding breakfast and moon taxes. Terms and conditions apply)�

Little do you know�.

Noticeable noise? So, in the event of an anticipated hostile invasion, if we all be very very quiet, we'll be safe?

Yes... noise.

How else would any ET species notice we're here amongst the millions of other planets in this galaxy?

William, your post is invalid, because we don't know much or nothing about what ET life would be like. We don't even know if it's physical or not. Have you seen the show on abductions after that dumb roswell dig show??? Some of the interviewees (abductees) said that the Aliens could walk through walls, just like ghosts. If there's a tiny chance that these abduction stories might be true and that these abductees might be telling the truth. Then those Aliens who visited and abducted them cannot be purely physical, and therefor the laws of physics in the material world might not apply to them.
Who knows, maybe they can travel from their "planet" to ours in a blink of an eye, simple and easy...

And maybe they noticed us, by means other than technological...

Just a thought...

Hi William
Your question is a very good one:

"How could they have found us a long time ago? We haven't been making noticeable noise until about 80 years ago. "

My Feeling on your question:
I am assuming you are referring to Radio and Television waves or transmissions to make "Noise". Again, we seem to bring a socket set and flat head screwdriver in hopes of working on the" intelligent extra-terrestrial life" assessment.
I submit to you sir that form of communication has much validity and should be looked at as one single possibility in searching the stars. However, closer to the home front it would be safe to say the there is reason to believe that what ever "they" are, they seemingly try and edit what they want us to know about them so it would be safe to say that they are not using an easy to find type of communication, then again maybe they are using radio waves in a way that we are simply overlooking.
Again, it might be right in front of us and so simple that we overlook it because we are focused on the more complex theme.

My feelings are that our "Noise" has nothing to do with the whole picture. I seem to drift in the direction of our planet itself and maybe even Mars a million years ago (by our understanding of time and space) had more to do with the interest. But lets not forget, the song of the hump back whale. Who are we to pass judgment on what we think intelligent life should be or do. Our version is limited to our very own "programmed" understanding.

Let's assume the following is true and let's use hump backs as our example:

They have a much bigger brain then we do have been around a hell of a lot longer then us. We do know that they have no need for radio waves but yet can communicate over vast distances. What if they also use telepathic means to communicate along with the frequency manipulation of sound waves in water. Then it would be safe to say perhaps that what they tell "others" may be of great interest. And GOD is that a scary thought LOL. Again, what is important to the said extra-terrestrial ???. We simply do not know at this time!. And radio waves may play no role at all in the equation.

Hope this entry helped Bill!!

Mr. Byrd
Sir, with all do respect, I disagree.

You said : "What William said. and that, in general, is the attitude of most folks in the engineering/aeronautical/astronomical fields. And of many skeptics, too."

You want to see what the "top" scientists are working on now? follow and look for links to the university's that hire them to do research. Here are a few links to give you a better idea

www.calphysics.org... ( Follow the links and read )

www.ufoskeptic.org... ( This is Fantastic Site designed to give info from one scientist to another (sorry not pictures just raw facts and theories)

"Skeptic - One who practices the method of suspended judgment, engages in rational and dispassionate reasoning as exemplified by the scientific method, shows willingness to consider alternative explanations without prejudice based on prior beliefs, and who seeks out evidence and carefully scrutinizes its validity"

my point previously - thanks

Originally posted by Skeptical Believer
...snip...
so it would be safe to say that they are not using an easy to find type of communication, then again maybe they are using radio waves in a way that we are simply overlooking.

My feelings are that our "Noise" has nothing to do with the whole picture.
...snip...

1) We are using an easy to detect and identify form of communication.

2) "They" would certainly have technology that, for all practical purposes, looks like magic to us. However, that matters little.

Our noise has everything to do with it. How else might we be noticed? In the vast myriad of stars and planets likely to contain life, what is it about ours that would attract attention? Nothing, that is, not until sentient life began making noise and pollution.

This argument has focused on the possibility of extraterrestrial species visiting our planet. I never said it was impossible, just very, very improbable. Our galaxy is gigantic beyond our ability to comprehend. I fail to understand how Earth would be noticed prior to the beginnings of our pathetic noise.

Perhaps it's possible too that we were "noticed" before we started keeping formal records of it also.

Hi William
Q1) "We are using an easy to detect and identify form of communication." They" would certainly have technology that, for all practical purposes, looks like magic to us. However, that matters little

A1) Yes as we should be, but all I am saying is let's not stop there. So far we are getting very poor reports from SETI " if " we are getting the "Right Information". My feelings are that the universe should by all rights be some what loaded with many forms of signals and many may not be radio waves, and many may be unknown types of signals. Or that simple radio signal is some how being "missed" or, in deep dark space (way beyond our solar system) there may be unknowns to us that are making the signals to weak to detect from earth. We are able to pick up signals from pulsars but look how strong that signal is from the source. How many "watts" is a Pulsar LOL?

Q2) "Our noise has everything to do with it. How else might we be noticed? In the vast myriad of stars and planets likely to contain life, what is it about ours that would attract attention? Nothing, that is, not until sentient life began making noise and pollution."

A2) I guess it's two schools of thought here. I tend to lean toward Earth being visited long before the "noise". Even the King James Bible has some interesting things to say and that is just one of many recorded observations from the ancient past.

As for what would have made our planet interesting enough to visit in the first place. Again, I have no idea what is important to an extraterrestrial species. However, if in 500 years we are able to detect planets around stars and we are even able at that point to detect the chemical make-up of the atmosphere of a said planet and also the distance from the star in which it orbits. Planets that would look a bit like the Earth would be very interesting to us I am sure.

I am assuming that if an extraterrestrial species had the means to make the trip some how to visit the earth, they would also have done some pre-trip observations and perhaps the vast oceans of H2O and a Oxygen rich atmosphere was a perk. Then again, maybe they just happened upon our planet because our vast myriad of stars is just full of intelligent life.

How many stars have lived out there very long lives and have died that may have had planets with very highly advanced civilizations left with no home? And what would we do in that position if it were us in say one hundred thousand years. Better yet, what if we were not able to find a home like the earth but found a few that were good for breading in some way with the inhabitants of that planet.

Then again, you could be right on the money and none of the above is right in anyway. There is just so many possibilities including "We are alone"

Yes when mankind first embarked on it's search through the universe for intelligent life we looked for radio and micro wave emisions but today we do not.

Today we have a better understanding of the conditions needed in a solar system for life to evolve.We use a model,imperfect as yet,on the basis of process of elimination.

Any advanced species that could identify that our planet existed would almost certainly be able to identify Earth as a likely candidate for life and therefore a likely candidate for intelligent life.By looking at the size of our sun and the distance from the sun the Earth is.We are already making similar calculations as we start to identify for the first time planets in orbit around distant stars.