Survivalist: Nuclear Fallout Survival

page: 4
3
<< 1  2  3    5 >>

log in

join

posted on Oct, 21 2006 @ 06:35 AM
link   
Fritz
Those Avon suits, as well as several others, are made for operations in high radiation zones and are mostly given out to NBC specialist recon troops, am i right?

When preparing for disater i assume i'm not alive if i'm that close to an strike point, where you need full NBC gear. And i'm sure as hell not going to move any closer... if you're 50+ clicks downwind from explosion you may have a change with lighter gear.

You're absolutely right about the mask/canister expiration days and remember surplus military items WILL be mistreated, they may have been soaked in water, dried in sun... you'll never know, so take just new equipment.

One good source (Fritz, if you're still on active duty don't read this
) is to pay some soldier to "loose his mask, etc. during an exercise" (or simply ask an officer friend, that's how it got my "military only" 9mm rounds
)




posted on Oct, 21 2006 @ 06:52 AM
link   

Originally posted by chinawhite

You have voted fritz for the Way Above Top Secret award


Glad ATS has someone in the know


Cheers my friend. That's very kind of you.

I do hate seeing people ripped off by unscrupulous traders.

Northwolf, in answer to your post - no that's not right.

Serviceman in the UK armed forces are issued training NBC IPE and every year, complete Defence NBC training as laid down in the current MATTs syllabus. The equipment used, is considered 'out of date and non-operational'.

By that I mean they put on their IPE and undergo training and testing in a Chemical environment, where they carry out familiarisation and confidence building skills.

These include the Emergency Drinking and Eating Drills; Respirator Cannister Changing Drills, Personal Decontamination Drills and lastly, Urination and Defecation Drills. To ensure that serviceman carry out the emergency drills correctly, they do so in a respirator testing facility that has been contaminated with CS Gas.

I used to spray a substance called CATM with a trace element of Tinopal [that shows up in an ultraviolet light source] over the soldiers to simulate a liquid chemical agent attack, whereby they masked up [within 9 seconds], moved to cover [the CS gas filled room] to complete decontamination drills and anything else I could dream up.

By using a CS gas environment, this showed up those who were not doing the drills correctly as they suffered from exposure to the riot control agent and hopefully, what I taught them, served them well on operations.

With regards to operations such as the first Gulf War, each serviceman or woman was issued 2 complete changes of NBC IPE and a third was held at Coy HQ as a tactical reserve.

Both Nerve Agent pre-Treatment sets [NAPS] and Biological pre-Treatment Sets [BIOPS] are issued and taken when the Alert State rises to a predetermined level.

It should be remembered by those considering purchasing NBC IPE that everything has a 'life' when exposed to chemical agents, especially Blister Agents.

All NBC IPE MUST be changed within 30 minutes after being exposed to Blister Agents because of the Contact/Vapour hazard presented by these agents.

For those of you who wish to know more, please feel free to U2U me or contact via email held in the Member's centre.

[edit on 21-10-2006 by fritz]



posted on Oct, 21 2006 @ 08:56 AM
link   

Originally posted by thelibra
  • I have read that you do not want to wear any metal that has been within the radiation wave area, especially denser metals such as gold, as they become radioactive much more quickly. Is this true?


  • Not altogether sure but i presume any metals will have the same type of effect as wearing darker coloured clothing.


    The thermal pulse travels in a straight line, and
    objects that cause shade offer partial or total protection.
    A shield as flimsy as a bedsheet would suffice.
    37(p36) At Hiroshima, a clump of grass or tree
    leaves was in some cases adequate, implying that
    the duration of the flash was less than the time
    required for the grass or leaves to ~hrivel.~*ip*~)
    The children whose horrible burns are shown in
    documentaries of Hiroshima would probably have
    escaped these injuries had they been sitting under
    their school desks when the blast occurred. 38(P26)
    Filmstrips produced for the instruction of Soviet
    citizens in civil defense illustrate this point. One
    frame is evidently based on photographs from
    Hiroshima, showing a woman with normal skin
    beneath the light-colored fabric of her kimono, and
    burns beneath the dark fabric.39

    www.oism.org...



  • Are there any animals that are recommended "detectors" for particular nuke/bio/chem situations (such as the song-birds that coal-miners used to use)? I realize this question might raise the ire of our animal lovers. = killed by. Dogs, for instance, are pretty darn good at smelling things and anticipating Earthquakes.


  • Makes perfect sense to me as the dog, or whatever animal, will enable you to save yourself AND the pet/animal..
    I dont know much about this thought.


  • Is the idea of a bomb shelter in the back yard truly worth something, or was it just some WWII propaganda to make people feel better? Any cases of these bomb shelters proving effective, and if so, against what forms of attack?


  • For sure!


    Some shelter designs have been proved capable
    of withstanding overpressures of more than 300
    psi. (An overpressure of 200 psi would be sustained
    at a distance of about 0.5 miles from
    ground zero of a 1 -megaton airburst . I 3 ) In Operation
    Plumbbob (carried out in Nevada in 1957),
    cylindrical structures of 10-gauge corrugated steel
    and of concrete sewer pipe were buried at depths
    of 1.5 to 3.0 m (5 to 10 ft). Pressures as high as
    149 psi and radiation in excess of 100,000 rad were
    experienced above ground (as would occur at
    about 1 km or 0.6 mile from ground zero of a
    1 -megaton airb~rst’~), but there was negligible
    deformation of all of the shelters and negligible
    radiation levels were recorded inside .45(p84)
    Many varieties of expedient shelters were tested

    people were not aware of the awesome destructive
    potential of a single bomb, and the air raid
    alarms were not maintained upon the approach
    of the airplane that was carrying it. In Nagasaki,
    investigations showed that scarcely any of the
    approximately 400 persons who were in tunnel
    shelters at the time of the attack received burns
    or serious injuries. This fact gives credibility to
    the estimate that 30% of the deaths and injuries
    could have been averted had the tunnel shelters
    been filled to their rated ~apacity.~~(p~) Carefully
    built shelters, though unoccupied, stood up well
    in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 28(P237)
    At Hiroshima, persons who were in buildings of
    better construction had a fair chance of survival.
    Between 0.5 and 1.25 km from ground zero,
    where casualties in the open ranged from 90% to
    loo%, the casualties in buildings varied with the
    degree of structural damage (among other factors).
    In buildings sustaining light damage, 51 % of the
    occupants escaped injury. 13(p547)

    www.oism.org...


  • Is there any advice from our ex-military out there as to what us civvies can do in the event of NBC attacks as far as breathable air goes? Especially if we don't own an independent air supply or a really good gas mask?

    Northwolf provided solid information on all your questions.


    Thanks in advance for the answers. Please, survivalists, keep these threads active, on target, and spreading. The more we can prepare, the better.


    It's the ONLY thing we can do as so many governments are apparently completely uninterested in directing labour to make survival in such extremes possible. In Russia ( and the former soviet states), Finland, Switzerland and a few others countries extensive preparations were made that would have allowed the vast majority of the populations to survive nuclear exchanges even directed at their cities.

    Stellar



  • posted on Oct, 21 2006 @ 09:06 AM
    link   

    Originally posted by fritz
    For those of you who wish to know more, please feel free to U2U me or contact via email held in the Member's centre.


    Public domain is best imo

    Ever heard of this ?


    After spending over $100 million to develop respirators (cf. the $6 to $8 million required to develop the British S-10 respirator), the US Army continues to rely heavily on the 40-year old M-17 model, which fails to meet basic NATO standards. The improved newer models are still said to be a ``disastrous combination of poorly conceived and executed technology.'' For example, the MCU-2P requires an attached rubber-coated hood to offer even minimum protection, and the hood contributes greatly to heat stress. US allies, such as Israel, find US respirators and hoods unacceptable.

    For eight years, scientists at a defense research establishment in the Netherlands have been demonstrating the effect of dropping chemical agents on standard US Army protective clothing: they splash right through. According to Evan Koslow, former editor of Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical Defense and Technology, there is no deployed NBC protective uniform in the free world that fails this test, except in the US (Armed Forces Journal International, May, 1990).

    US protective garments are made of permeable fabric with a lining of activated charcoal. Other nations manufacture garments of impermeable material as well. The rationale for the US choice of gear is to minimize heat stress. However, a soldier still cannot work in the suits for longer than half an hour in desert sunlit conditions. External evaporative cooling like that used with Soviet equipment can, under some conditions, extend endurance to two hours, but would inactivate the charcoal in American suits.

    www.oism.org...


    I have discovered very many strange things in the last few years and this one certainly has a spot at the top , if true that is.

    Stellar



    posted on Oct, 21 2006 @ 09:21 AM
    link   
    So all UK armed forces get a full NBC system if they go to harms way? Good for them.
    On the following pic there are the two levels of protection FDF uses, the left is for those operating directly in an contaminated are ie. Engineers specialicing in Force Protection, right is the normal fighters NBC gear. (the box/tube system is an older model analyser, not a part of normal equipment)



    We did do the training too in our "limited" NBC suits, but our army isn't expecting a long term engagement in contaminated territory (Russian NBC gear and training is even worse than ours, so they will not use B or C agents to clear a way for attack, only as a defence,, since their troops at large are unable to cross contaminated areas)

    [edit on 21-10-2006 by northwolf]



    posted on Oct, 21 2006 @ 05:06 PM
    link   
    Among troops in the field one of the most useful devices for "Dry Cleaning" is the disposable baby wipes.

    Careful use for decontamining is in order. These wipes can be purchased in large quantitys too. The problem with them is that they dont have a long shelf life.

    I will be experimenting with these babywipes to see if I can extend the shelf life by sealing them in a vacum bag..with my Food Saver gadget.

    Decontaminating technique is such that when you wipe down a area..you dont return to that area and just spread the just removed contamination back on. This means that you wipe ..then fold the now conatmimated wipe over into itself and then use another part of the wipe which has not been contaminated for wiping.

    This is called a "wipe fold" technique. IT works better with gloves. This also means you decontaminate your hands first then decontaminate others or other articles carefully not rewiping the area again with the now contaminated wipe. It takes practice.

    Same with a shower. You must be careful not to recontaminate if possible or spread contamination back around. IT requires dicipline both in actions and thinking to carefully observe what you are doing. This is a very tall order for a family with kids. How do you get the little buggers to stand still long enough and not spread contamination to other areas.

    I keep on hand around the house a couple of boxes of those surgical gloves. Not for me so much as the woman I am seeing. She doesnt like gunpowder residue on her $40 nail polish jobs when we go to the shooting range. I dont care as long as she practices. The Gloves prevent this residue. These gloves too do not have a long shelf life....but they are inexpensive.
    IN a contamination scenerio I would put them on two ply and go from there.
    Standard dishwashing gloves will work too.

    There is also a technique for removing gloves which requires practice so as not to spread contamination. YOu must carefully work the gloves off ..using only the outside surfaces then when they are close to coming off you remove one by grabbing it off with one hand and bunching it up in the palm of the glove you bunched it into. Then the one remaing glove you use a finger and point it into the sleeve and carefully roll it over the bunched up glove...so that it is now inside the last glove.
    This glove removal technique is derived from biological warefare techniques and if you have ever watched doctors and nurses they use a variation of this technique. If you know any ..perhapsed they can show you how it is done. It is a good skill to know.

    Rubbing alcohol is also used for decontamination on diapers or rags..once again taking dicipline to not rewipe a surface when it has been decontaminated. You can also use water...on rags or diapers..etc. using the fold technique.

    A shower is best if you can gain access to clean water and a means of disposing of the contaminated water so as not to spread it into the areas where you are living.

    There is a bit involved in it and it takes a different type of thinking.

    Believe it or not ...in a pinch ..duct tape can be used for cleaning up certain surfaces and decontamination. It is called tape presses. Care must be used here too. Dont sell the olde standard of duct tape short..it is a marvelous invention.
    You pat down the areas with duct tape and then fold the tape in on itself. Obviously it is not as effective as wiping or showereing ..but in a pinch it can make do. Once again dont repat the areas with the used tape. Fold it in on itself and get another piece of tape. Painful if you are hairy....yes!!!??


    All of these techniques work best if you have some kind of instrumentation to measure contamination levels.

    One more thing if possible. If you know the levels...and where and what they are ...if you have this information you do not decontaminate from the highest levels of contamination to the lowest...NO. You decontaminate from the lowest levels/readings to the highest. Common sense. YOu dont spread contamination more than needed.

    My plans are to eventually acquire some kind of instrumentation which can read contamination levels. They can be a bit expensive but not more than a good rifle.

    ON the radiation levels...here is something for some of you to think about . Water is a moderator in a reactor. Often used in tank voids around the reactors as sheilding. Shielding. Liquids. If you have nothing else..you need to get under a body of water...for shielding. AT least get your torso with your vital parts/innards protected with whatever you can and water can shield. Im talking about the initial blast area. However ..weigh this out carefully if you are in the open in the dead of winter. Get raidiated or perish from freezing in about 30 minutes. Up to you.

    Just some information for your consideration.

    Thanks,
    Orangetom



    posted on Oct, 21 2006 @ 05:12 PM
    link   
    Fritz is absolutely correct about shelf life. This is also why I mentioned it in my previous post and in other threads.

    Shelf life is a concept you need to be aware of..when caching goods and materials. Keep a log if possible of dates. Similar to marking up food in the freezer with dates and what cuts the meats are.

    When you can rotate out olde questionable items or expired items and replace.

    Good call on Fritz's part about shelf life.

    Thanks,
    Orangetom



    posted on Oct, 21 2006 @ 07:17 PM
    link   
    It is interesting reading about how everyone feels about protective Gear. I am Former US Military, and now Former Law enforcment. I have studied on Job time the Available Suits and Protective masks from around the world. I have tested these masks and suits myself. When it comes to radation fallout the Tyvek series suits are fine for alpha and beta radation. Gamma goes through most materials depending on thickness and density.
    The key to preventing exposure is Time, Distance and Shielding. Second is not to breath in the dust. A Full face mask like the Millennium Series From MSA with a HEPA P-100 Filter is fine for that. But A major side to suiting up is once You do it, You must go through decon.
    The old way was to use DS-2 A corrosive soap. But research has shown that Liquid soap such as dawn and others can do the same job. Bleach or Clorine can disolve most Chemical agents. Sarin is Broken down by Clorine, also you can use fire ( Subway Tunnels). It all depends if it is an Oil based chemical or a water reative chemical ( Phosgenene).

    The Main thing to remeber is Time, Distance and Shielding for any situation.



    posted on Oct, 22 2006 @ 12:38 AM
    link   

    Originally posted by DropInABucket
    I apologize if I was condicending, and looking back I was a bit. Not usually like that, but thats not an excuse. *waiting patiently for his mod warning*

    I was not questioning your intelligence, just your knowlage of the topic. Deny Ignorance and all that jazz. Also just trying to state that there are a lot of myths out there that people believe to be true in regards to nuclear weapons, fallout, and the like. Nuclear Winter, and the effects of fallout seem to be the main ones.

    I don't concider myself a gun/armor/war crazed person in the least. War is the last thing that I want, I find the idea of killing others for political/religious/economical reasons repugnant. I just happen to have a bit of knowlage through research regarding this topic, and I'm always open to learn new things. And I know that there are many on the boards that know much more then me on the topic. Just waiting patiently for them to have the time to post.

    I simply want to protect the ones I love. And spread the word that this scenario is possible so others might jump on the bandwagon and be prepared just in case.

    Only a couple of pages and this thread has already derailed quite a bit. Lets get back on topic. And please if you would like to add to the conversation, make sure that you clearly seperate facts from opinions.



    DropInABucket,

    From my perspective I commend you for wanting to insure some level of safety through knowlege for your family. And the word for this is "Love." This is part of your job as the Shepard of your Flock so to speak.

    That you are inquiring and thinking along this line rather than the latest sports scores or Amerian Idol or the latest drivel on the television is great to me. Gives me hope for the future. I admire this when I see someone musing along a line of thought which is not stamped out.

    There are plenty on these boards who have more experience than myself along these lines of thought ..actual field experience. Most of mine has been in reactors themselves and associated systems. It is still contamination and radiation but not actual field conditions/experience per se.

    One of the last posters is quite correct in the formula of Time, Distance, and Shielding. This is the basic formula taught to us in classes on this topic.
    I have posted this before somewhere.

    Time exposed to the source of radiation
    Shielding ..between you and the source of radiation
    Distance between you and the source of radiation.

    Also the suits..tyvek suits..Yes they will stop Alpha and most of Beta..contamination..but Gamma radiation is a different story. Gamma is a very powerful type of radiation. If you are ever around a radiation area when a Gamma alarm goes off...its time to get out ..rapidly.
    The olde timers used to tell us on these ships ..if the alarm goes off and you have to get out...do so .rapidly ..dont worry about taking anything with you ..just get out.
    I also recall them telling me to put a rag over my mouth and nose and breath through the rag..its better than nothing. I have actually done this a couple of times during alarms. Fortunately both times it was a faulty alarm. I did put a rag over my mouth/nose and get out. IF you can help it you dont want to get contamination internally. It takes longer to get out of the body depending on how much you get internally. Longer for the body to flush it out. Very different from external which you mostly can wash off or decontaminate.

    Radiation is different from contamination. People often get them confused.
    Radiation from the weapons is the initial high energy given off by the detonation.

    Contamination is the radiated particles which remain long after the initial high radiation energy of the initial explosion is over. THe contaminated particles are giving off radioactive energy too but not usually as high as the initial blast radiation energy.

    Much better posts on here since the restart of this thread. Thanks to all contributing.

    Orangetom



    posted on Oct, 22 2006 @ 12:38 AM
    link   
    [edit on 22-10-2006 by orangetom1999]



    posted on Oct, 22 2006 @ 03:01 AM
    link   

    Originally posted by StellarX

    Originally posted by fritz
    For those of you who wish to know more, please feel free to U2U me or contact via email held in the Member's centre.


    Public domain is best imo

    Ever heard of this ?


    After spending over $100 million to develop respirators (cf. the $6 to $8 million required to develop the British S-10 respirator), the US Army continues to rely heavily on the 40-year old M-17 model, which fails to meet basic NATO standards. The improved newer models are still said to be a ``disastrous combination of poorly conceived and executed technology.'' For example, the MCU-2P requires an attached rubber-coated hood to offer even minimum protection, and the hood contributes greatly to heat stress. US allies, such as Israel, find US respirators and hoods unacceptable....


    I have discovered very many strange things in the last few years and this one certainly has a spot at the top , if true that is.

    Stellar


    Allow me to step in. I have some experience from the National Guard and I am the NBC training officer for a regional police commission. I have a mix of military, federal, and local government NBC training.

    To me that information seems outdated.

    The M17 series went out of use years ago, replaced by the M40 series, and now the M45 in some units. I spent some time working in supply in 2004-2005 and any M17 parts or accessories we found when cleaning a warehouse were discarded. The last time I remember seeing an M17 model in use was during my unit's annual training in 1996 I believe. By 1998 we all had M40s, I remember because we had them at AT98.

    True, the M40 originally had a silly system where the hood and facepiece "second skin" were one piece with velcro closures to secure it. But the fit was always a compromise. The original silicone facepieces were also quote susceptible to mustard gas penetration.

    Then with the advent of the M40A1 mask the second skin and quick-doff hood became separate, allowing faster and simpler decon. There are dimples along the edges of the second skin for the hood to latch onto, for lack of a better term.

    The latest M40A1/A2 variants have a "universal second skin" which extends a bit furthur out from the facepiece than the original second skin, allowing the mask (with univeral skin in place, of course) to be incorporated into modern hooded garments.

    The newest MCU2AP mask has a lip along the outer edge to allow for easier incorporation into hooded garments as well, though it is a mask usually used by USAF aviators I believe. None of the agencies I work with use that model mask so I am not 100% sure.

    The old-style MOPP gear that many (if not most) of us trained on consisted of a jacket and pants and required the use of a rubberized hood with the mask. The more modern suits (Saratoga and JSLIST) have a hood integrated into the jacket and are much more comfortable to wear. I believe both variants can also be laundered about six times before discarding. I believe the Saratoga is now deadlined and the production only ran from about 1991 to 1997, so those will be nearing the ends of their shelf lives. The JSLIST is to be considered the current issue in all of the units I work with.



    posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 07:39 AM
    link   


    You have voted fritz for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.


    Fritz, that was hella informative, and you probably just saved a lot of future lives, or at the very least, saved a lot of people from buying $150 pieces of crap. Thank you. You have my first WATS vote for the month.

    Now... who wants to set up an LLC to resell GOOD NBC gear to ATSers, so we don't all have to set one up?

    Or is that against the rules?



    posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 10:59 AM
    link   

    You have voted orangetom1999 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.


    Tom,

    Again, your information is top notch, and as you say "on target". Thank you and all of the others for contributing to this thread. Fritz, I was going to throw you a WATS vote too, but I ran out
    . I'll shoot it to you first of the month.



    Originally posted by orangetom1999
    From my perspective I commend you for wanting to insure some level of safety through knowlege for your family. And the word for this is "Love." This is part of your job as the Shepard of your Flock so to speak.

    That you are inquiring and thinking along this line rather than the latest sports scores or Amerian Idol or the latest drivel on the television is great to me. Gives me hope for the future. I admire this when I see someone musing along a line of thought which is not stamped out.


    Thank you for the vote of confidence. I do what I can to provide and protect my family. Even if that means being labeled as a "paranoid nut" or a "crackpot" by certain members of society. Luckily, my wife is very supportive with everything I do, and even has started reading up on some of the "Situation X" stuff here on the forums. Now if I can only get her to the firing range...

    Again thank you all for your posts. I, and I know quite a few others, are taking notes and waiting patiently for the next jewel of wisdom. If I have time tonight, I'll try to post up the list of supplies for a home shelter vs. evacuation that my wife and I came up with. If not I'll get that tomorrow.



    posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 11:40 AM
    link   

    Originally posted by thelibra

  • Anti-Radiation Pills - Do they work? What brand? What dose? For how long? Are they pre-emptive or symptom-based?


  • www.ki4u.com...

    This is a good FAQ. It explains iodide and also how you can use it. I purchased KI pills from these people and they seem to have a good rep. Also got one of their keychain radmeters and tested it to their specs. Pretty useful even tho' I'll hopefully never need or use it.




    From Cresson H. Kearny, the author of Nuclear War Survival Skills by Oak Ridge National Laboratory, states on page 114:

    "To prepare a saturated solution of potassium iodide, fill a bottle about 60% full of crystalline or granular potassium iodide. (A 2-fluid-ounce bottle, made of dark glass and having a solid, non-metallic, screwcap top, is a good size for a family. About 2 ounces of crystalline or granular potassium iodide is needed to fill a 2-fluid-ounce bottle about 60% full.) Next, pour safe, room-temperature water into the bottle until it is about 90% full. Then close the bottle tightly and shake it vigorously for at least 2 minutes. Some of the solid potassium iodide should remain permanently undissolved at the bottom of the bottle; this is proof that the solution is saturated.
    Experiments with a variety of ordinary household medicine droppers determined that 1 drop of a saturated solution of potassium iodide contains from 28 to 36 mg of potassium iodide."

    Two ounces of granulated Potassium Iodide (KI), mentioned above, is about 56.7 grams.
    Also, from the above, an adult would be wanting four drops of the saturated solution as an expedient dosage. This would amount to between 112 to 144 mg of Potassium Iodide (KI) total. Remember, 130 mg of KI is an adult daily dose and half that (65 mg) is a child (age 3-12) daily dose.




  • I have read that you do not want to wear any metal that has been within the radiation wave area, especially denser metals such as gold, as they become radioactive much more quickly. Is this true?

  • Not true. If you are exposed to radioactive particles, you are in trouble anyway. Metals do not attract more irradiated particles unless those particles are airborne and metallic (unlikely as most irradiated material is earthen).



  • Are there any animals that are recommended "detectors" for particular nuke/bio/chem situations (such as the song-birds that coal-miners used to use)? I realize this question might raise the ire of our animal lovers. Rest assured I'm not calling for a round of test subjects to be created, but it would be nice to know what options exist, and detector does not neccessarily = killed by. Dogs, for instance, are pretty darn good at smelling things and anticipating Earthquakes.

  • Not for a nuke. If you are above ground when the flash comes, you need to dive and I mean DIVE for the nearest shadow. The light itself may give you a terminally hurtful sunburn. After the flash you've got a few seconds to get under cover for the blast wave. Any dogs or parakeets will be hurt, but even in a city-nuke event, only 50-60% of the inhabitants of the area will die immediately. Most will linger and die later.



  • Is the idea of a bomb shelter in the back yard truly worth something, or was it just some WWII propaganda to make people feel better? Any cases of these bomb shelters proving effective, and if so, against what forms of attack?

  • You have to be underground for at least one month in the event of nearby nuke. This would be to avoid irradiated particles falling from the sky. Also, there will be desperate humans who will kill you, and probably in numbers. Yes having a HIDDEN underground location would be good but if it's obvious and if aid is slow to reach the affected area, you may find yourself facing hostiles outside, and even if you have a lock on the door, they can block air filters or force you out in other ways. People in shelters will be targets for wounded and hungry humans who didn't prepare.

    Good questions TL.

    I started thinking about nuke war a few years back. First, you need to get away from blast zones if you can. If you cannot move away from where nukes will hit and blow fallout (winds generally move west-to-east over the US, not rocket science to see where fallout will go). --Oh and did you know the government killed a nuclear fallout study in the US? It wasn't deemed really possible and therefore not a priority for Americans. Read more at this link.. Meanwhile the Soviets get REAL nuke survival skills. I bought a DVD set from KI4U also and it's all still frames in Russian but it is packed with diagrams, posters and information.

    Anyway, if you are not killed by the flash, blast or panic, you'll need to stay underground for a few weeks. As mentioned by DropInTheBucket, the 7/10 rule means radioactivity drops way off after a couple weeks. If you can stay hidden and alive, there will be aid at some point.

    The main problem will be food and water. Water can be filtered (radiation doesn't 'stick' to water but to particles IN the water) but food will be tough to come by. Also you'll be facing gunfire and hostility from other hungry Americans who've been set up by their own government.

    Good thread. Probably your survival will depend upon two things mainly: Communication skills (or lack thereof), and the kindness of others. Failing either of these two things, survival probably will be tough for the random person.

    Good books to read: Pulling Through, The Road, On the Beach...

    [EDIT]

    More from Wikipedia on the human thyroid:



    Because of the thyroid's selective uptake and concentration of what is a fairly rare element, it is sensitive to the effects of various radioactive isotopes of iodine produced by nuclear fission. In the event of large accidental releases of such material into the environment, the uptake of radioactive iodine isotopes by the thyroid can, in theory, be blocked by saturating the uptake mechanism with a large surplus of non-radioactive iodine, taken in the form of potassium iodide tablets. While biological researchers making compounds labelled with iodine isotopes do this, in the wider world such preventive measures are usually not stockpiled before an accident, nor are they distributed adequately afterward. One consequence of the Chernobyl disaster was an increase in thyroid cancers in children in the years following the accident. [2]


    Also more from www.ki4u.com... on your thyroid and how it is the first part which will degrade:



    External Source

    Q: Radioactive Iodine: Bad News / Good News!?!
    A: The "bad news" first:

    #1 - Radioactive iodine (predominantly iodine-131) is a major radioisotope constituent in nuclear power plants.

    #2 - There are 103 currently active commercial nuclear reactors and 39 operating nonpower reactors in the United States. (434 worldwide as of 1998.) Additionlly, there are numerous other nuclear processing and storage facilities worldwide with the potential for accidents, too.

    The, September 29, 1999, Tokaimura, Japan nuclear accident took place, not in a nuclear reactor power plant, but in an uranium processing plant.

    Radioactive iodine-131 gases were confirmed to have been released and was the primary reason for 320,000 Japanese confined to their homes with their windows shut. It was also why you may have seen photos of Japanese authorities examining scores of children with geiger counters pressed against their necks.

    #3 - Radioactive iodine (predominantly iodine-131) is also a major constituent of detonated nuclear weapons.

    #4 - Radioactive iodine can not only travel hundreds of miles on the winds, but also still remain health threatening even as other radioisotopes are becoming dispersed and diluted along with it and their likelyhood of causing harm diminishes. It is often overlooked that while there will also be many other dangerous radioisotopes released along with radioiodine, if they are inhaled or ingested they are normally dispersed throughout a body and pose less of a risk than if they were to be concentrated into one small specific area of the body, like radioiodine is in the thyroid gland. As a plume or cloud of radioactive isotopes disperses with the wind its danger also diminshes, but always much less quickly so for radioiodine because whatever little there is that's inhaled will always be concentrated into that small space of the thyroid gland.

    NUREG-1633 points out an increase in thyroid cancer caused by radioiodine from Chernobyl...

    "...was detected in Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine. Notably, this increase, seen in areas more than 150 miles (300 km) from the site, continues to this day and primarily affects children who were 0-14 years old at the time of the accident...the vast majority of the thyroid cancers were diagnosed among those living more than 50 km (31 miles) from the site."


    Make a circle on your selected world map, scale size of 31 miles. Then place one of these circles at every nuclear plant and uranium processing plant which is known to exist. Prepare accordingly.


    [edit on 23-10-2006 by smallpeeps]



    posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 12:42 PM
    link   
    Real quick I also wanted to make sure there was some clarification regarding "dirty bombs", it seems that on here and in many U2U's I've recieved many people are concerned with dirty bombs.

    But I'm not sure if they think a "dirty bomb" is what a "dirty bomb" is.

    It seems that a lot of people have a Dirty Bomb (Wiki) confused with a Colbalt or Salted Bomb (Wiki).

    These are two very distinctly different methods of using radioactive material as weapons. A dirty bomb is not a nuclear weapon, but a cobalt/salted bomb is. Please if you are unsure of the difference between the two, check those two links for clarification.

    And if have questions regarding fallout and nuclear weapon effects, please post it here rather then in a U2U, there are many people posting on here who are much more well versed on this subject then me.

    [edit]

    Just to add something for people who are extremely concerned with "dirty bombs" here is a link for you. Read it over and breath a sigh of relief:

    Nuclear Regulatory Comission Fact Sheet: Dirty Bomb

    [edit on 23-10-2006 by DropInABucket]



    posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 01:28 PM
    link   
    Thanks for all the answers! One more question:

  • Is there harm in taking KI pills over a long period of time?
    For instance, should the wife and I be taking doses daily along with our multi-vitamins, or is it something where we first wait for the blast and then take them for the next few months? Can you overdose on KI, or is it like salt, where it's just not particularly healthy to eat too much?



  • posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 01:42 PM
    link   

    Originally posted by thelibra
    Thanks for all the answers! One more question:

  • Is there harm in taking KI pills over a long period of time?
    For instance, should the wife and I be taking doses daily along with our multi-vitamins, or is it something where we first wait for the blast and then take them for the next few months? Can you overdose on KI, or is it like salt, where it's just not particularly healthy to eat too much?

  • No, the thyroid has a limit where it's saturated and then excess is processed as waste.



    posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 02:28 PM
    link   
    Well according to some maps I am toast depending on what kind of nuke is used, apparently I live about 1 hour from one spot that will be nuked but there is about 4 heavy bunches of mesas and high hills that separate me from it, then I live in a valley after that... So I could be toast, there are NO bunkers near me in reaching distance, the other is in Los Alamos NM or COLORADO in NORAD or something... Oh well... Nuke goes off not much we can do anyway.



    posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 08:04 PM
    link   

    Originally posted by Vekar
    Well according to some maps I am toast depending on what kind of nuke is used, apparently I live about 1 hour from one spot that will be nuked but there is about 4 heavy bunches of mesas and high hills that separate me from it, then I live in a valley after that... So I could be toast, there are NO bunkers near me in reaching distance, the other is in Los Alamos NM or COLORADO in NORAD or something... Oh well... Nuke goes off not much we can do anyway.

    An hour's distance? You mean at a rate of 55 miles an hour on the highway? Because that distance is fine, assuming the warhead is on target (some will not be and ICBMs have generous margin of targeting error). Just be ready to ride out the cloud if the prevailing wind blows your way. You will need concrete above-ground enclosure or underground bunker with ventiliation.

    Surviving the blast is surprisingly probable, based on gov't data. If you assume an average nuke like 25kt (roughly twice hiroshima) then you can be as close as 20 miles to an airburst and have a 95% chance of surviving (although perhaps injured with no medicine). If you have mesas or mountains in between you and the epicenter, you could hope for a ground burst or an airburst which was behind the mesa, otherwise heat and blast will still affect you.



    www.pbs.org...

    Radius: 30.4 miles
    1 psi

    Residences are moderately damaged. Commercial buildings have sustained minimal damage. Twenty-five percent of the population between the 2 and 1 psi rings are injured, mainly by flying glass and debris. Many others have been injured from thermal radiation -- the heat generated by the blast. The remaining seventy-five percent are unhurt.

    NOTE: This information has been drawn mainly from "The Effects of Nuclear War" (Washington: Office of Technology Assessment, Congress of the United States, 1979). The zones of destruction described on this page are broad generalizations and do not take into account factors such as weather and geography of the target.

    This isn't so bad as long as you avoid glass and don't have skin exposed. But compare it to the next ring inward:



    Radius: 20 miles
    2 psi

    Any single-family residences that are not completely destroyed are heavily damaged. The windows of office buildings have been blown away, as have some of their walls. The contents of these buildings' upper floors, including the people who were working there, are scattered on the street. A substantial amount of debris clutters the entire area. Five percent of the population between the 5 and 2 psi rings are dead. Forty-five percent are injured.

    As you can see, the percentage of dead is only 5% although it would rise in the month to come as the injured succumb to injury. As in so many things, the question is: How long will it take MASH units to be on the ground of your local nuke? The point is, if you are prepared to do things for yourself, your survivability quotient is raised.

    Airbursts are more destructive, but cause less irradiation (less dirt is thrown up) whereas groundbursts have a smaller footprint but cause more destruction to the people from the particulate-laden fallout cloud (which eventually effects everyone in the hemisphere). Also note that when it says "1psi" it means that the air around you will be overpressured to 1psi, or about a depth of 10-12 feet in the swimming pool. Will your ears pop, and will they hurt? You betcha! Picture yourself having a rope around your waist as you tread water and then are suddenly ripped down to a depth twenty feet. The pressure is similar to what a nuke victim will experience at the distances above.

    Anyway, chances are you will have time, like when you see an approaching tornado which allows you time to get into the cellar. A news report of our missiles leaving their silos, would indicate that you should get to cover. Also if you observe any use of nukes elsewhere say on the news and which looks to be provacative to the US. If this happens and you hear it on the news, you will have several key moments to assess the situation. Maybe up to 45 minutes or longer.

    Forget the roads, as they will be jammed with crazy panicked people. If you have some kind of helicopter, use it. If not, have a stocked, hidden place to get down into the earth and live there for a month at the very least. Tell the kids it's like the biblical flood, and only the smart are meant to survive this one.



    posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 09:31 PM
    link   
    Okay, well, I've read up a lot on the fallout bomb shelter plans, and rest assured I'll be drawing up my own design here before too long. However, I was curious about a few things:

    I've read where the concussion blast from a nuke or some other tremendous sources of energy can kill anyone inside a sealed environment because there's nowhere for the change in pressure to go. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but if I had a completely sealed self-contained bunker, and a powerful enough concussion blast hit it, I'd be killed as it the concussion force travelled through the pressurized air around me. Is this true, and if so, one would think that the air filter design to the outside world would do the trick. Great.

    Next problem though: Thermo-bari weapons. Big blast of pressure and heat. Big huge vaccuum left in the wake that either sucks the air out of your lungs or even your lungs out of your chest. Best way to protect? A sealed environment.

    What's a man to do? Which is the bigger risk? What scale of either would be neccessary? How can one survive carpet-bombing of thermobaries and concussion blasts? I guess you can't prepare against everything, but I'd rather have as many angles as possible considered.





    new topics
    top topics
     
    3
    << 1  2  3    5 >>

    log in

    join