Sumerian Edin or Eden?

While discussing the dating of the Great Pyramid, Marduk and I got sidetracked on a debate relating to the origination of the word "Eden."

The premise of the debate was as follows;

I had suggested the word was originally "E.DIN" and he suggested the word was always "Eden," although he believed that it was actually the word for mountain, and this particular mountain had a city on top, that he claims was called "heaven." In otherwords, the concept that the ancients were referring to the starry firmament when they said "heaven," was confused with the city of heaven, which was BY the starry firmament in that it was on a very high mountaintop.... or so he theorizes. I disagreed with that proposal, firstly because it was pretty obvious the ancients not only called the sky, "heaven," but that they knew the difference between a city on a mountaintop and the sky.

Anyway, in an attempt to build his case regarding Eden being the name of a mountain on which "heaven" was built, he provided an old babylonian cuneiform glyph for the word "Eden," at which point, I provided an old akkadian cuneiform glyph for the word "Edin" which he said was not correct and that the correct Akkadian word for Eden was "Edinu." No problem, I thought. Afterall, Akkadia is older than Babylon, so either way, it's more likely the sumerians used Edin(u). But he said, the word Eden was also the name for it in Sumer. So apparently, he claims, the word "Eden" was used in ancient sumer, skipped over the akkadians and was used again by the babylonians. I challenged this by asking him to provide some form of textual reference from Sumer, specifically (and not akkadia or babylon), in which the word "Eden" is used and not "E.DIN" or "EDINU" or "Edin".

Rather than do that, he posted a map of late babylonian timeframe, which he says is the oldest map known. In the map, it depicts rivers, oceans and mountains, as well as Babylon (the city). He also insisted that the akkadian "Edin" was not a noun, so there's no way it could be "Eden."

The following are the evidences I presented as a part of the discussion:

eden [PLAIN]
(5 instances)
eden [PLAIN] (5x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. eden "plain, steppe, open country" Akk. edinu
[1] cuneiform EDIN eden (edimx(EDIN), edin)

University of Pennsylvania Museum of Anthropology and Archaeology
psd.museum.upenn.edu...

Note that the word "Eden" is in the Old Babylonian.
Note that the word "Edin" is in the Akkadian
Note that it says Cuneiform EDIN eden.

Marduk said that it wasn't Edin, that it was Edinu. What can I say? Denial, it's not just a river in Egypt.

Anyway, he provided the glyph for the old babylonian Eden and I provided the glyph for the Akkadian Edin:

Collection:British Museum, London, UK
Museum no.:BM 114394
CDLI no.212967
Provenience:Umma
Genre:Administrative
Period:Old Akkadian

Rev.
1. [x esz2 sig4 gid2]-bi#
2. [...] nag
3. [x esz2 sig4 gid2]-bi#
4. [x gi] 2(u) nag
5. [x esz2 sig4] gid2#-bi
6. [x gi] 1(u) la2 1(asz@c) nag
1 line blank
7. |SZU+NIGIN2| 1(u) 1(disz) esz2 sig4
8. |SZU+NIGIN2| 3(gesz2) 1(u)? esz2 nag
9. esz2 ansze edin-na-ka
10. lugal-[gesz]kiri6 muszen-du3-e
11. szu ba-ti
1 line blank
12. 5(disz@c) mu 5(disz@c) iti

It's on line nine in the image below. Just skip the blank line.



Used "make a shorter link," so that link wouldn't scroll the page over.
makeashorterlink.com...

He pointed out that the glyphs are identical. I pointed it out that they were not identical.

He then claimed that the Akkadians were Semites but the Sumerians weren't.
This I found interesting for several reasons, especially since he had claimed Edinu was the Akkadian word for Eden, a word the Semites penned into the bible in ancient babylon, in the first place. If sumerians called it eden, and akkadians called it edinu, why would they suddenly call it eden in babylon? He says they just decided to..

Believe it or not, all this nit picky exactness was the result of me challenging his belief that Eden was a mountain on which the city of heaven resided. Even according to the translations, Eden was everything EXCEPT a mountain. It was a steppe, a plain, and even a desert. And according to the biblical and other ancient texts, it also contained a Garden.

At this point, he quotes
Genesis 2
"10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became four heads. "

To prove Eden was the mountain, from which the river originated, he quoted the interesting but incorrect translation of the biblical verse above.


He had assumed Eden and the Garden were a single place and that they both referred to the same specific location. That is not what the word Eden translates to in Akkadian or Babylonian. Instead Eden (or Edin or E.DIN or EDIN or Edinu) was a plain, a steppe, some of which was fields and deserts and a portion of which contained a Garden. He says I'm wrong.

Let him eat cake, says I. Just kidding. Proceed to prove me wrong, Marduk.



[edit on 12-10-2006 by undo]

It's also of note that the phrase "ansze-edin-na-ka"

is translated "onager", which was beast such as a donkey or horse that "pulls the chariots of the sumerians". The chariots of the sumerians were pulled by donkeys ? Really?

I see several possibilities in that phrase, such as the chance this is a reference to Gilgamesh's "Scorpion Beings" protecting the "gates of paradise". These scorpion beings would correlate with the biblical "cherubim" protecting the gates of paradise, who also were part of the conveyance/throne of God. And the babylonian "sphinxes" protecting the gates of paradise, and purported to pull the conveyances of the gods (notice they have wings!).


Anyway....

had suggested the word was originally "E.DIN" and he suggested the word was always "Eden," although he believed that it was actually the word for mountain, and this particular mountain had a city on top, that he claims was called "heaven."

once again Beth you are guilty of making it up as you go along
this is the third time you have totally misrepresented what I said about Heaven
at no time did I say anything about mountains with cities on top
so from now on you can talk to yourself
have fun

you said:

youre thinking of the fact that temples (i.e.ziggurats) were modelled on the holiest thing the people could think of i.e. heaven which in every ancient culture in the ancient world was situated on a mountain top

he believed that it was actually the word for mountain, and this particular mountain had a city on top, that he claims was called "heaven."

where did I say city on top
its about as stupid as sci fi crap that you come out with


if you'd like I will start a new thread where I will post some of your claims and compare them one by one with the plot of Stargate SGI
like that time you claimed that Daniel Jackson was hot and therefore must have been a living embodiment of Enlil especially after he was implanted and became a human alien hybrid

Originally posted by Marduk

he believed that it was actually the word for mountain, and this particular mountain had a city on top, that he claims was called "heaven."

where did I say city on top
its about as stupid as sci fi crap that you come out with


if you'd like I will start a new thread where I will post some of your claims and compare them one by one with the plot of Stargate SGI
like that time you claimed that Daniel Jackson was hot and therefore must have been a living embodiment of Enlil especially after he was implanted and became a human alien hybrid

lol What is this, an object lesson?

According to your statement, you believe the ancients thought heaven was on a mountain top. Maybe you should define heaven?

I'm not sure on the accuracy but I just talked to a local Iranian born and educated Canadian who teaches "stuff" at the local mosque over on Markham Road and asked about Eden. His reply, "Ah, my young friend you seek truth and knowledge." I said, "OK". He went on to tell me quite a story... not sure of it's "truth" but he did explain that he teaches it as "Adin" with an "A" and an "i"... and indicated it was a real place in olden-days Iraq. Not sure if it helps... the rest was pretty bizzaro... giants and stuff.

Victor K.

41'

According to the Koran, the gardens of Eden are in heaven, and form a part of the blissful abode of the believers.
bible.tmtm.com...
I have a moslem friend who believes that the biblical story of Adam and Eve is entirely fictitious.
when I brought up the fact that the Koran also has an Adam and Eve he stated
"ah but they were an entirely different Adam and Eve. they were the real ones"


[edit on 12-10-2006 by Marduk]

Originally posted by Marduk
its about as stupid as sci fi crap that you come out with

Now now be nice... her sci fi is no worse than the rope sled fiction...

Besides I thought this was and Eden thread, not the stargate thread.... sheesh... no time to keep up with all these threads...

Okay Eden --- Stargate....

So Herr Marduck.... did you know that Eden is only reached by travelling through a Stargate? Well they thought so in 1445 when they painted THIS...




See the dry rocky desert landscape that those two apple eaters are about to get tossed to?

Hmmmm.... the art of the Masters.... so much knowledge...

Originally posted by V Kaminski
I'm not sure on the accuracy but I just talked to a local Iranian born and educated Canadian who teaches "stuff" at the local mosque over on Markham Road and asked about Eden.

Could you possibly write that down? I would love to hear his story... or perhaps he might have an email? I have visited that mosque several years ago... a long time ago when I lived in Toronto. I would be very interested indeed.

Originally posted by Marduk
According to the Koran, the gardens of Eden are in heaven, and form a part of the blissful abode of the believers.
bible.tmtm.com...
I have a moslem friend who believes that the biblical story of Adam and Eve is entirely fictitious.
when I brought up the fact that the Koran also has an Adam and Eve he stated
"ah but they were an entirely different Adam and Eve. they were the real ones"

[edit on 12-10-2006 by Marduk]

Interesting. Had no idea they had their own version of the Garden. Gonna have to read that!

We are right back to the same spot with their interpretation. the evidence is pointing to Eden being at the other end of the gate. The same gate Gilgamesh travelled through to reach paradise, guarded by two "Scorpion beings." I'm still trying to figure out why it's described as scorpion beings, unless it was an attempt at describing a chimera. The rest of the description could very well resemble the biblical description of the gates of Eden.

Originally posted by undo
While discussing the dating of the Great Pyramid, Marduk and I got sidetracked on a debate relating to the origination of the word "Eden."

it was english. and, no it was not "edin" or "eden". most people pronounce it:

E D U N

here, look into my mirror:

E D U N [mirror] N U D E

now, were they not nude in the garden?

.................

Oh, the tower of BABEL?

was not in Babylon. the story came from Moses. Moses came from Egypt.

Biggest building in ancient Egypt?

The Great Pyramid.

Who is accredited for it's construction?

2 names, one person:

KUFRU / CHEOPS

the silly bulls? the syllables?

KUF RU CHEOPS

here, look into my mirror:

KUF [mirror] FUK

UR [mirror] UR (ancient name for earth) and also pronounced "your"

CHEOPS [mirror SPOECH

the tower of BABEL?

the great pyramid.

F** your (ur's) spoech (speach)

KUFRU CHEOPS [mirror] F** your speach.



[edit on 18-10-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]

was not in Babylon. the story came from Moses. Moses came from Egypt.

the story came from the bible
the bible was written in babylon
it even says so in the text
B A B Y L O N / N ' O L Y , B A B (IN HOLY BIBLE)
ner

Originally posted by Marduk

was not in Babylon. the story came from Moses. Moses came from Egypt.

the story came from the bible
the bible was written in babylon
it even says so in the text
B A B Y L O N / N ' O L Y , B A B (IN HOLY BIBLE)
ner

Marduk is correct. 'Esoteric Teacher' can only get away with making things up for so long before somebody bothers to correct him.

Originally posted by NJHazard

Originally posted by Marduk

was not in Babylon. the story came from Moses. Moses came from Egypt.

the story came from the bible
the bible was written in babylon
it even says so in the text
B A B Y L O N / N ' O L Y , B A B (IN HOLY BIBLE)
ner

Marduk is correct. 'Esoteric Teacher' can only get away with making things up for so long before somebody bothers to correct him.

I'm making it up that the first 5 books of the bible were introduced to people by moses?

I'm making it up that moses introduced the torah?

I'm making it up that moses was from Egypt?

I'm making it up that the story of the tower of Babel was in the torah?

Please, enlighten me what Ancient sumerian or Babylonian text talks about the Tower of Babel.

For i am unaware of any babylonian stories unearthed by man that talks about the tower of babylon.

Who introduced the story?
Where was it written?
Where did the one who wrote it come from?

What tablets from modern day iraq describe the tower of Babel?

Are those tablets older than the torah?

Marduk is correct. 'Esoteric Teacher' can only get away with making things up for so long before somebody bothers to correct him.

If so, please support your claims. correct me?

with what evidence? your opinion?

your opinion does not alter truth, just your own perception of reality.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

I'm making it up that the first 5 books of the bible were introduced to people by moses?

They were certainly written down long after Moses' time. How else would they have contained details of his death and burial? There's no evidence that Moses was even based on a real person.

I'm making it up that moses introduced the torah?

That's what the story says. But it's only a story ....

I'm making it up that moses was from Egypt?

That's what the story says. But it's only a story .... first written?


All we know for sure is that the various books of the Bible were first compiled from various folk tales around the 8th century BC, and subsequently rewritten in many parts during the exile in Babylon.

So far as fact goes, Moses was a real as Romulus and Remus ..... And the torah is as accurate an account of events as Geoffrey of Monmouth's History of the Kings of Britains (which was actually written for fairly similar reasons to many of the earlier Biblical stories)


Of course, many people believe otherwise. But if I said I believe you can fly, would you jump or would you want further emphirical evidence first?

Anyway, Sumerian EDIN or Sumerian EDEN? Both seem useable. Perhaps it was a local dialect difference.

Please, enlighten me what Ancient sumerian or Babylonian text talks about the Tower of Babel.

well the bible does for one
it qualifies as a babylonian story because thats where it was written
in fact every story in the old testament except for one is actually set in Babylonia
are you sure you have actually read it
Genesis 11
www.mechon-mamre.org... (Hebrew Bible)
"1 And the whole earth was of one language and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another: 'Come, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly.' And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. 4 And they said: 'Come, let us build us a city, and a tower, with its top in heaven, and let us make us a name; lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.' 5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said: 'Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is what they begin to do; and now nothing will be withholden from them, which they purpose to do. 7 Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.' 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth; and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore was the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth; and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar

the Hebrew word Shinar is in semitic Akkadian called Shumer
in modern English that is called Sumer
so the Tower of Babel was a mesopotamian ziggurat
notice also at the star that it says

they journeyed east

so for your untested and clearly erroneous hypothesis to be true the original home of the Hebrews would have to be west Africa

like DOH

Interesting Discussion

Maybe a bit of reflecting on this, from another angle would settle the matter of the Origin.

First, with the Adam and Eve matter, and the Garden of Eden, can it not be considered that this was a place outside of the Geographical Area of the Mid East.

There is no evidence of it being located anywhere on this planet. The Closest Nonscriptual description would be Plato's Account of Atlantis.

Second, the Mountian and Common Worship, is a fact, which in a basic consideration was universal in scope. There are very few Religons that do not depict a Godhead Figure on a Mountian. This suggests at some point, a Common Religous practice may also have been Universal.

Third, the Semetic and Akkadian Origins are quite accurate. Both are distinct from eachother, but they share a Mutual Past.

Recall, Noah and his decendants came into the Middle East after the flood. The Lore of the events that took place would have been mutually common. One recollection by the Semetic peoples, the other Akkadian. Same events, but different interpetations.

And Fourth, the Tower of Babel is a Mid East story. The Books of Moses, which are of an Egyptian Origin, (being Moses was raised there) are just what God told to Moses, and where recorded at some future tome in written form. The story followed the Bloodline from Adam and Eve thru Noah and his children.

Those children thru to Abraham did live in Ur, which is in region.

With this said, I am quite certain most of the notations given thus far are fair representations of the Same Events, but told from the two alternative peoples. (The Semites and Akkadians)

No real need for an arguement.

Maybe an effort to secure the views from both sides as completely as possible will make this clearer for everyone.


Ciao

Shane

very good shane but theres one small problem
the Akkadians were semites

so your two examples of corroborating evidence are in fact the same
and when you say semites in your post you actually mean hebrews
the Hebrews post date the Akkadians by over 1000 years
so in reality youre talking about exactly the same story which by the time the hebrews wrote it down had changed very little