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Sumerian Edin or Eden?

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posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by Marduk
heres the long version
Namtar was a sumerian lesser deity of the underworld
www.pantheon.org...
its also the Sumerian word for sickness; fate, destiny
psd.museum.upenn.edu...
and its also the name of the star sign that in the modern world is known as Scorpio
the scorpion men were so called because they attacked their enemies like a disease
not because they were half alien hybrids from the planet scorpius or anything like that

heres the brief version
Namtar takes the form of a scorpion



A minor god of the underworld in Sumerian mythology, Namtar was regarded as the bringer of disease and pestilence. It is fate, destiny in its evil aspect, pictured as a demon of the underworld. In addition to spreading disease, Namtar acted as the herald or messenger and chief minister of Ereshkigal, the queen of the Sumerian underworld, and the god Nergal. Nergal in his guise as the god Irra, and Namtar were believed to cause all diseases in mortals.

Thanks. Any etymology for "scorpion" ? I really think the description you've linked from pantheon.org is very revealing but i need the original meanings of the word. scorpions didnt cause disease, in the sense of medically speaking. they caused sudden dramatic illness and death, but disease is more characterized by a long drawn out illness. if a scorpion bit you, if you were alive a week later, you were probably gonna be alright.




posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 11:20 AM
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Regarding "Scorpion people": "Girtablullu, 'scorpion-man', is the Akkadian term for a supernatural being with a horned cap of divinity, human head with beard, human body, the hindquarters and talons of a bird, a snake-headed penis, and scorpion's tail. He may or may not have wings. The creature is first seen in the art of the Third Dynasty of Ur and the Akkadian period, but was common only in Neo-Assyrian and Neo-Babylonian times...As attendants of Shamash (Utu)...the scorpion-men were also, by the Neo-Assyrian period, powerful protectors against demons. Wooden figurines of them are prescribed, along with figurines of other beneficent demons and monsters, in Neo-Assyrian instructions for rituals of protective magic...These rituals mention figurines of 'male and female' scorpion-people..." (p. 161. "Scorpion-people." Jeremy Black & Anthony Green. _Gods, Demons and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia. An Illustrated Dictionary_. London. British Museum Press. 1992)

As regards criticisms of an "out-date" Wallis E. Budge on the subject of Egyptology on the Internet: Very few articles exist on the internet written by professional scholars. The vast majority are written by amateur-scholars like myself, who transcribe data from earlier works by professsonals. Very little "current" (the past 10 years) info is available on the internet on the subject of Ancient Mesopotamia and the Bible because professionals _do not post_ their research in most cases to this medium. Their work appears instead in Professional Journals or Books published by scholarly presses for consumption by professionals at Universities and Seminaries. Occasionaly an exception to the rule crops up and an article by a professional does appear on the internet, but its not "common." The best way to be "current" is to subscribe to Professional Journals on the subject and that is expensive. Most journals are subscribed to by Universities who have Departments interested in the Subject. Generally speaking the public does _not_ have access to these University libaries, they are for the faculty and staff as well as registered bona-fide students. All this is to say that this esoteric knowledge is not free nor easy to obtain. There does exist on the internet a service called JSTOR which for a monthly subscription fee will allow you to access on-line Professional Journals in PDF format to read and study. Its the _only_ way I know of that an individual can stay up-to-date on his subject via the internet. Another way to stay up-to-date is via subscribing to book dealers on the internet who specialize in scholarly books, they usually provide a brief synopsis of the book and list its for sale price. Warning: Scholarly books are not cheap, they are expensive. Why? They are made in very small numbers for scholars, so the market is small, to make a profit the publisher has to ask a high price, which tends to be borne by the Universities/Seminaries interested in keeping their faculties abreast of the latest research in their fields. The high prices tend to keep these books out of the hands of non-professionals and they are not stocked by the usually encountered bookstores like Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Waldens, etc.

Accordingly, professional scholars do not use the internet very much to down load each other's scholarly research, they turn to the Professional Journals instead. All this to say, sadly, that the "non-professional avergae joe like ourselves," do not have an easy access to current information from the professionals in the field via the internet.



posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 11:39 AM
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Oh I found a very interesting etymology for scorpion in the Pennsylvannia Sumerian Encyclopedia. It's from the old babylonian but will suffice for my purposes till I can find something older:

1. scorpion (5x/100%)

~ muš[snake]

See: bir ĝir.

Snake men. Isn't that interesting?
They're Seraphim. Seraph. Serpent-men. Reptilians. Gotta love etymology.

psd.museum.upenn.edu...

[edit on 21-11-2006 by undo]



posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 12:03 PM
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Its interesting that for some reason you are translating muš as serpent men when in fact it just means "snake"
psd.museum.upenn.edu...
now why would you be doing that
picky picky picky
pseudo historian stylie



posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 12:25 PM
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In studying ancient astrology in various cultures - I have found that Scorpio (which is signified by the scorpion) was likely somehow evolved from an Eagle, which also came from even more older roots - and started out originally as the Phoenix bird. I believe that the ancients considered it a very important symbol/myth/idea/event. I have read stuff to the effect that it seemed like they literally believed this bird did exist and did burn and rise from it's ashes every 1000 years (and other various lengthy intervals).

In fact, it was probably the first archetype that is known representing life ==> death ==> resurrection.



posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 12:46 PM
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In fact, it was probably the first archetype that is known representing life ==> death ==> resurrection

I think you'll find that honour is held by the true son Dumuzid
en.wikipedia.org...
stories about him predate egyptian civilisation and the Phoenix actually gets its name from the same root as the name phoenecian from its colour and the colour dye that they were named from which was purple-red



posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 01:08 PM
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I've heard that word before! It makes sense, too - the red and the purple...

You are certainly a fount of information on this subject! No wonder they call you 'Marduk!' :lol



posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 01:28 PM
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actually i tend to just respond to those questions that I know something about
rather than talking crap about things that I know nothing about
I find it makes me more credible
now If only I could persuade certain popular authors to follow my example



posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by Marduk
actually i tend to just respond to those questions that I know something about
rather than talking crap about things that I know nothing about
I find it makes me more credible
now If only I could persuade certain popular authors to follow my example


well that counts me out. not popular, and barely an author. dunno why you worry so much about me , but it's kind of you to be concerned about all of us stupid people. it's a thankless job but i guess, someone has to do it.



posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by Marduk
Its interesting that for some reason you are translating muš as serpent men when in fact it just means "snake"
psd.museum.upenn.edu...
now why would you be doing that
picky picky picky
pseudo historian stylie


cause, well, the reference
text is scorpion-beings.
so it'd be snake-beings instead.
cool no?

whee, i am
catching on.

[edit on 21-11-2006 by undo]



posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 04:50 PM
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no the reference text is scorpions
once again you're misinterpreting the evidence through your personal belief filter
it leaves you feeling chuffed and everyone else shaking their heads and tutting to themselves
and you know you're right
it is a thankless dirty job having to educate some people here on this board
when I was at school I was going to have a career in mental healthcare but this was as close as I got

i need one of those little masks and a cape and some sort of cool nickname
oh yeah right
in that case i need one of those masks and a cape

p.s. hows the hoovering
did you polish the mirrors yet ?



posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 05:20 PM
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so you're saying that the epic of gilgamesh doesn't say "scorpion-beings"?
and you're saying the translation for scorpion is not "snake"? so i shouldn't
believe it means "snake-beings"?



posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 05:57 PM
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the translation for scorpion is not snake
and it does say scorpion beings
like it calls the older gods the men (na) of Anu (Anuna)
psd.museum.upenn.edu...
if anything its evidence of Tiamats brood which is the name given to all the mythological creatures of mesopotamia



Ummu-Hubur [Tiamat] who formed all things,
Made in addition weapons invincible; she spawned monster-serpents,
Sharp of tooth, and merciless of fang;
With poison, instead of blood, she filled their bodies.
Fierce monster-vipers she clothed with terror,
With splendor she decked them, she made them of lofty stature.
Whoever beheld them, terror overcame him,
Their bodies reared up and none could withstand their attack.
She set up vipers and dragons, and the monster Lahamu,
And hurricanes, and raging hounds, and scorpion-men,


ooh look Scorpion men asscoiated with Tiamat
seems they moved on from being beings eh

do you know why that is exactly Beth
its because you're using the wrong translation



Whose tips reach the zenith of heaven
And whose rim (5) raches the depths of the Un
Scorpion-Men (6) guard the commencement of its motion (7).
Awful their terror, their glance is death (8)
The splendour of their scintillation (9) disturbs the mountains
Which keep watch over the rising and the setting of the Sun God
When Gilgamesh observed (10) them,
His visage was darkened with terror, with fear.
Regaining his composure
He approaches them.
The Scorpion-Man called to his wife:


so they are scorpion men which straight away takes their alien possibility away doesnt it
now have you seen this before



its an inlay from the great Lyre of Ur
it shows a MYTHOLOGICAL creature
just as the Egyptians used half human half animal figures to signify a human that had animal qualities the Sumerians did the same
they just did it earlier (remember Dumuzid)

now you remember that the other meaning of Namtar is fate
what do you think having a creature that is both feared for its powerful offensive capability and also known to decide your fate mean to someone reading and understanding metaphor 5000 years before you were born
and about 4900 years before the invention of science fiction

are you getting this yet or do you need some more Thorazine ?



posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 06:23 PM
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look at his hand. he's the messenger of ereshkigal. it's namtar. not the two "Scorpion-beings" in the epic of gilgamesh. it's not my fault if the pennsylvannia sumerian dictionary translates scorpion to mean snake. btw, got any artifacts of the two scorps?



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 01:28 AM
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it doesn't translate it to mean snake
that example is from a lexicon
it lists the next word down in the list which happens to be snake
it has nothing to do with any other connection apart from an alphabetical one
you should learn to use these tools properly Beth then you wouldn't be making silly mistakes
like the other day when you asked me for the earliest mention of Dragon
why is it you couldn't find that information yourself when it quite clearly tells you at epsd
if you don't know how to use it i'd be happy to tell you



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 04:31 AM
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Originally posted by Marduk
it doesn't translate it to mean snake
that example is from a lexicon
it lists the next word down in the list which happens to be snake
it has nothing to do with any other connection apart from an alphabetical one
you should learn to use these tools properly Beth then you wouldn't be making silly mistakes
like the other day when you asked me for the earliest mention of Dragon
why is it you couldn't find that information yourself when it quite clearly tells you at epsd
if you don't know how to use it i'd be happy to tell you


well the way i see it, since you're trying to be so informative anyway, i thought you were in teacher mode or something. maybe i've completely confused your intentions. perhaps you might want to reconsider harrassing me for asking you the meaning of something. it makes your motive seem more malevolent.



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 05:06 AM
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Hi guys.

I may be making a fool of myself here but I had an idea while I was reading your post. Recently I have been doing a bit of research on my home city of Edinburgh. The history of the name of the city is what is interesting me the most. On wikipedia it says Edinburgh's earliest recorded name was Din Eidyn (Fort of Eidyn) from the time when it was a Gododdin hillfort. Could the early settlers of Britain have had knowledge of the legend of Edin? I say this because I seen you talk about Edin as if it was on a hill top, and since this fort was on a hill the tribe may have named it after the legend. I don't know much about Sumerian legend so I may be making a fool of myself here but I hope not.

en.wikipedia.org...

cheers guys
dave



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 06:24 AM
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every ancient civilisation had a legend about the paradise that existed before a flood destroyed the earth
but the etymology of Edin in scotland is not the same as that of Eden in the middle east
there are a lot of similarities but to prove it you'd need to trace the mtdna of the inhabitants who called it Din Eidyn in the first place
this is where you run into a big problem
Din Eidyn is brythonic and as such is part of the Proto Celtic known as P Celtic races
and due to current scoittish nationalism these groups by some are regarded as a total myth and by others as being part of the Celtic horde that came from Europe
with no direct proof of a line of decent for these people you're left with a coincedence in names and that is all
however there has been some work done linking Gaelic and Akkkadian
members.aol.com...
which shows that there are 600+ simialr sounding words where in reality and purely by chance there should be around 100
so I guess its up to you
I can tell you that the hypothetical line of descent for the P Celtic groups is via the scottish islands to scandanavia which they settled after leaving the caucasus around 8000bce
and the caucasus is the place that is the location of Eden in most books
(before anyone says no its not its turkey go look at a map and you'll see that the region in turkey they are currently claiming for Eden is in fact on the western end of the southern caucasus)
so Daviroo. If it is a direct link its because both the word that became Eden in the middle east and the word that became Edin in scotland are both derived from the source
and not because one is derived from another




i thought you were in teacher mode or something.

I am always in teacher mode but sometimes the quality of my student body leaves a lot to be desired




[edit on 22-11-2006 by Marduk]



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 09:22 AM
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marduk,

then i suggest you vacate this class room. think what a relief it will be. you only hang around because i'm one of the few people who will actually answer you, even in between all the abusive comments. i'm trying to be fair and impartial, and humane, of course. but you seem to think it's a sign of weakness. honestly, all i have to do is ignore you. would you like me to do that?



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 10:10 AM
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this is what the third time you claimed you'd do that Beth
fact of the matter is I know far more about mesopotamian history than you do
and you know it
or else why would you ask me questions in the first place



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