CHRISTianty

Originally posted by queenannie38
Because if you don't you're praying to the angel of death.

But he's gone now.

God has NEVER incarnated - God is PURE SPIRIT.

That means no body, no flesh - not ever and never ever ever.

Put away your idols.

queenanie,

You base this assumption on what? The Scriptures?

If so then how do you know that the passages you deny are incorrect?

If you do not base this belief on the Scriptures how then have you come to know the word "incarnate", that God is "pure Spirit" and how you know the word "idol" ??

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

A Believer is NOT worshipping "just" Jesus

True they are followers of Paul/ Saul the jew killer. nothing in modern xianity relys
on the actual teachings of R.Jeshua. It is all about how paul the egomanic interpolates and
defines what the Rabbi said. I personally think paul was doing shrooms and barney.

Everything about Christianity is about the Author of it, God the Father.

Please provide just 1 verifiable document written by your " God the Father".

" The Bible did not arrive by fax from heaven ( or anyplace else). It was Written (after the fact) By Men For Men

Nothing relies on the actual teachings of Jesus? Obviously you state these things in ignorance. Since you have no evidence but personal opinion, I shall not bother responding any further for you yourself have stated that this is your "personal opinion".

In your second response you now seek "evidence". I offer up Scripture as that document yet you shall deny this as your presupposition does not allow for God to exsist. I am most puzzled though by your ignorant statements. You state that I cannot provide 1 VERIFIABLE document written by God my Father yet you state that the Bible was written by men for men.....can I ask for 1 VERIFIABLE document that accounts for that??

Originally posted by inspiringyouth

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by inspiringyouth
This is what im talking about... JESUS was a MAN!

Think about that I worship god, I pray to god, not JESUS.

Jesus was God and man at the same time.

Then how can the father be the son. He was a Skitzophrenic then? So you follow a man with a disease? A man he is none the less, with parts just like you and I. No man should be worshipped no MAN.

You deny that Jesus is God yet you have no understanding of the Doctrine, you have no clue what the Incarnation states, nor the Hypostatic Union, so how can you state it is in error to worship Jesus? If you had understood these things you would not even ask the question, "Then how can the father be the son".

The "Father" is NOT the "Son" nor is the Spirit the Father. Rather we have ONE God who reveales Himself in 3 Persons and these 3 are ONE in "Will", so we have God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit.

To help you better grasp this, since you are an unbeliever, I am a father to my child, a son to my mother and a brother to my sister. I reveal myself to each in a different manner yet I am the SAME person......sadly though as with all analogies, when pressed to far they crumble.

Now, let's say that you are correct, Jesus is not God but just a man......in your world how does God redeem mankind?

Originally posted by queenannie38

And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
~Ezekiel 36:23-28

Yehoshua doesn't make us into sons of God - God DOES! He gives each that power - directly. Not Yehoshua but God the Father who is PURE SPIRIT.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
~John 1:12-13

More about God doing this thing -- all power comes from GOD - we are not to seek other recipients, but the giver, Himself!

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
~Romans 8:11-14

Is the spirit of God in subjection to the flesh of mortal man?!?!

OR

Is mortal man in subjection to the Spirit of God??

Does anyone see the difference?

You have mislead people here in your eisogesis of Scripture. In John 3 Nicodemus should of known what Jesus was speaking of about being "born again" and this is why Jesus said,

John 3:10
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?
NASU

Jesus will give men a new heart and mind, they shall be "born again" spiritually for Paul states in 2 Cor. 5:17...

2 Cor 5:17
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
NASU

Jesus Himself states....

John 14:6-10
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, "Show us the Father'?
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
NASU

Yet because this does not square with queenannies preconceived notions of God and Jesus for this passage, and the hundreds more like it, must be in error, added later by scribes to make Jesus look like God.

Originally posted by UnrealZA
queenanie,

You base this assumption on what? The Scriptures?

If so then how do you know that the passages you deny are incorrect?

What passages do I deny? (hint: I don't)

If you do not base this belief on the Scriptures how then have you come to know the word "incarnate", that God is "pure Spirit" and how you know the word "idol" ??

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
~John 4:23-24

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
~John 1:18

And what does this say?

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
~Acts 7:55-56

Originally posted by UnrealZA
Yet because this does not square with queenannies preconceived notions of God and Jesus for this passage, and the hundreds more like it, must be in error, added later by scribes to make Jesus look like God.

What are you talking about?

Since you don't know my mind - you can't know exactly how or when my 'notions' are conceived. You know what I mean? You'd have to have known me 8 years ago....or 15...to be able to make such a statement with justification.

Originally posted by UnrealZAYou deny that Jesus is God yet you have no understanding of the Doctrine, you have no clue what the Incarnation states, nor the Hypostatic Union, so how can you state it is in error to worship Jesus?

What is the 'Incarnation?' The 'Hypostatic Union?'

What 'Doctrine' do you refer to (with a capital letter)?


[edit on 10/13/2006 by queenannie38]

queen,

You deny that Jesus is God yet Scripture states He is. So what do you do with those Scriptures?

Well you either avoid them or you claim they must be in error.

So again, on what do you base which are correct and which are incorrect if not your own presuppositions?

Originally posted by UnrealZA
You deny that Jesus is God yet Scripture states He is. So what do you do with those Scriptures?

Could you please point out those scriptures you mention, for me? Then I can answer you accurately. But I am not sure which ones you are referring to.

Per your request I have copied this from another thread and posted it here.

This is simple. The hard part comes from Believers trying to "convince" non-believers that Jesus is God. Their presuppositions that Jesus is NOT God will not allow them to believe Jesus is God no matter what Believers say to them. Only when God gives them "faith" to believe shall they know and understand.

So I shall not seek to convince anyone that Jesus is God Incarnate but I shall demonstrate what the Scripture states.

First, we have John 1:1

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.


In John 1:14 we get very clear as to this "Word"

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.


We then have Jesus speaking to the Jews in John 8:58. He stated that He was before Abraham and the Jews, upon hearing this yelled "blasphemy" and picked up stones to kill Him.

John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.


Now why would they seek to kill Jesus? What was His crime? Well He boldly stated that He was equal with God. This was blasphemy and was punishable by death as stated in Mishna Sanhedrin 7:5 "the blasphemer is not guilty until he pronounces the name" God said this very same thing to Moses when Moses asked God who shall he say is sending him and God replied, "I AM" (Exodus 3:14). The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying.

We also have in John 20 the disciple Thomas, whom did not believe the stories of Jesus resurrection and stated such until He saw Jesus physically. Jesus did appear before Him and Thomas said "My Lord and my God". Now Thomas was a devout Jew, he would not call just any man "my God" because he then would be guilty of blasphemy.

Jesus also did not correct Thomas but fully accepted the title of "God".

Also, in John 17:5 Jesus states this -

John 17:5
5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Keyword here being "glory" and also notice "before the world was". This implies that Jesus had knowledge of God the Father before the foundation of the earth, creation itself. Now let's compare this passage with what God states in Isaiah 42:8 -

Isa 42:8
8 "I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.

Notice here that God states: "I will not give My GLORY to another"?? God will not give or share His glory with anyone. Jesus, as God the Son, before His incarnation, had this very same glory and it is this GLORY that Jesus set aside for a time.

Phil 2:6-8
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

So does this convince you that Jesus is God? Most likely not as you shall not believe until God calls you. My point is that YES, Scripture declares that Jesus is God, the Messiah as God alone is free of sin and ONLY a sacrifice free of sin can appease God for sin. Jesus is the Lamb.

Originally posted by UnrealZA
This is simple. The hard part comes from Believers trying to "convince" non-believers that Jesus is God.

Believer in what, exactly? In God? In Christianity’s doctrines?

First, we have John 1:1

‘Word’ = ‘logos’

From Strong’s:

G3056 logos log'-os
From G3004 - something said (including the thought) - by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive - by extension a computation - specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

‘Divine Expression’ - the ‘express image of the Father’ is the Son.

See
Hebrews 1:1-8

God (the Father) called the Son (Christ) ‘God.’ Yet plainly there is a Father/Son relationship there - and it is undisputable that no father is the same entity as his son, right? Same blood - same name - same family - same estate….but NOT the same entity.

In John 1:14 we get very clear as to this "Word"

Do you not see that you are contradicting yourself with this very verse you post to support your statement? The ‘Word’ (divine expression of the Father) became flesh - and His glory was the glory of the ‘only begotten from the Father.’

Not the glory of the Father, but of the Father’s Son!!

John 8:58-59

You DO realize, don’t you - that I AM in the OT was not God the Father, but the pre-incarnate Son? Ben Elohim? Yehoshua said that no man has seen the Father - and yet it is written that Moses talked to I AM face to face.

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. ~Exodus 33:11

Now why would they seek to kill Jesus? What was His crime?

Well, going strictly by scripture - the true reason they sought to kill him was a different one than they used to convict him in front of the Sanhedrin (which was NOT that he had claimed to be God, either, BTW):

Matthew 26:59-66

That was the trumped up reason - here is the real reason:

John 11:43-53

It was a power struggle - He was a threat to the Pharisee’s seat of power under Roman rule (which had already been greatly compromised because of the revolt which came before under the rule of the Hasmonean Dynasty - they were, effectually, on ‘probation’ with the Roman government.)

They weren’t so much worried about the fact that he might truly be who he said he was (obviously he was if he brought forth Lazarus 4 days dead already!) but that because of that raising, the people would follow him and desert the authority of the Sanhedrin. For this reason, they also sought to kill Lazarus, too (being the actual evidence upon which people were persuaded to believe, potentially turning the tide disastrously for the elders who ruled Jerusalem).

Well He boldly stated that He was equal with God. This was blasphemy and was punishable by death as stated in Mishna Sanhedrin 7:5 "the blasphemer is not guilty until he pronounces the name"

The Mishna is NOT the Torah - coming from the Torah, yes, but greatly expounded upon and convoluted…to take the name of the LORD IN VAIN was a crime - but we can’t even be really sure if Yehoshua said ‘I am’ or if he uttered the Tetragrammaton…due to the fact that John was written in Koine Greek.

The custom of not saying God’s name is a human regulation - not a divine commandment - due to not understanding the concept of taking it in ‘vain,’ most likely. For them it would have been in vain - even for their Priest to say it the ten times on the Day of Atonement became ‘in vain’ eventually. Vanity = emptiness. God’s spirit was in Christ - it was not said in ‘vain.’

The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying.

But there is more to that:

In John 8:49, he was quite clear that God was his FATHER…He did not claim to be his father - and remember, that if he was the first thing God created, then of course HE WAS before Abraham!

Now Thomas was a devout Jew, he would not call just any man "my God" because he then would be guilty of blasphemy.

Jesus also did not correct Thomas but fully accepted the title of "God".

And why is that? BECAUSE he has already died and also been raised and exalted by God the FATHER. Before the crucifixion he was a man. After he died and was resurrected, then He WAS (and IS) God!

Notice here that God states: "I will not give My GLORY to another"?? God will not give or share His glory with anyone. Jesus, as God the Son, before His incarnation, had this very same glory and it is this GLORY that Jesus set aside for a time.

This wasn’t God the FATHER, but the LORD - I AM - we don’t hear about the Father until the life of Yehoshua…

He who many call ‘Jehovah’ is not God the Father, but was later known as Jesus…. His name means ‘salvation of Jehovah’ (in sloppy transliteration, which I’m using just to get the point across).

Philippians 2:6-8

So does this convince you that Jesus is God?

I don’t need convincing, thank you - it is a complex idea - you address it as something that is linear and based in material reality - but that’s not how the whole reality words - unity and identity and entity - ideas that are still hard for most of us to reconcile. Especially when Christianity remains rooted in a material perspective which puts a divider between man and God by blurring the many manifestations into just one that doesn’t make sense according to the bible.

And also - the passage in Philippians is much more evidence for my premise, not yours!

Most likely not as you shall not believe until God calls you.

Actually, I’d say it is not so much ‘belief’ but rather ‘understanding.’ Which, BTW, was given to me, by God - and that’s the only reason I can view it outside of material reality - before that I didn’t have much luck making sense of it. Although I have always understood there is a Father AND a Son. That’s why I harp on this subject - not that I expect to convince anyone - but I am doing what I am supposed to do.

My point is that YES, Scripture declares that Jesus is God, the Messiah as God alone is free of sin and ONLY a sacrifice free of sin can appease God for sin. Jesus is the Lamb.

Only if you pick and choose which verses you want to apply (as you have done and is the norm for this particular issue). But there are far too many situations which relate the Father and the Son as TWO entities - united as ONE, no doubt - but yet God is not a man - He says this Himself, and also we know God does not change. However, it is also written that God can and does choose to endow certain men with His spirit - and in this case, it was given ‘without measure.’

queenannie,

While I thank you for your reply you and I will always butt heads because you just toss out stuff that you read on other websites or books and they themselves have done little to no research. That and you always isolate verses and interpret them by your bias. You are an unbeliever telling me, a Believer, what the Scriptures state.

You first give me a definition of the word "logos" and you latch onto the term, "Divine Expression". You then write that this Divine Expression equals "the express image of the Father is the Son".

You then give Hebrews 1: 1-8 as a reference.

Heb 1:1-8
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,

"YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?

And again,

"I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?

6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,

"AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

7 And of the angels He says,

"WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."

8 But of the Son He says,

"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
NASU

First, the author of Hebrews states in verse 2 that Jesus, the Son, created the world. This indicates that the author of Hebrews believes Jesus to be far more than just an "expression of the Father".

Second, verse 8 only makes it that more clear that Jesus is God. To the "Son" God the Father states..."Your throne, O GOD, is forever and ever....."

So why you would use these Scriptures to back up your claim I have no idea.

Third, the use by John of "logos" is clear in that John identifies Jesus as the "logos" (many theologians interpret this as "logic" as can be used also for "logos"). John is not thinking of some impersonal expression but rather a personal being, with flesh and bone, rationality.

If Jesus therefore is the "Divine Expression" of God, He is then the "visible" expression of the invisible God. Jesus is the "self-expression" of God.

Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
NASU

Fourth, the structure of John 1:1 reveals that Jesus is "with" God, as in distinguishable from God the Father yet also God. The word "with" is important for it states that Jesus is apart from the Father, as in not identical (theos describing "God the Father" in the NT for the most part) BUT while Jesus (the Logos) was WITH God "in the beginning" does not discount Jesus being fully God for John then states....

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASU

"and the Word was God" This is a picture of the Triune God.

Fifth, the term or phrase "face to face" is a Hebrew figure of speech that does not mean they spoke literally "face to face". I'll give you some examples.
1) A blind person can speak to another person, "face to face" yet never see their face, correct?
2) God is Spirit, thus He has no literal "face" hence Moses used the phrase to indicate an intimate, personal knowledge of God.

Sixth, you are incorrect about it being the pre-incarnate Christ speaking with Moses.

Ex 3:14
14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you
NASU

The Hebrew is "elohim" and not "ben-elohim". A Christophany would be seen as "Angel of the Lord" in OT Scriptures.

Seventh, your statement :

And why is that? BECAUSE he has already died and also been raised and exalted by God the FATHER. Before the crucifixion he was a man. After he died and was resurrected, then He WAS (and IS) God!

Is really hard to swallow in light of Scripture. John 1:1 alone speaks against you. You cannot pick and choose your passages, well I guess you can, but then you get idiotic nonsense like what you're putting forth here.

A being cannot become God, the Eternal One....clearly you have no thought deeply on that topic.

Lastly you stated :

And also - the passage in Philippians is much more evidence for my premise, not yours!

I already dealt with this passage from you in another post. It completely demonstrates, when read and interpreted within its CONTEXT, that Jesus is fully God, fully man.

Originally posted by UnrealZA
queenannie,

While I thank you for your reply you and I will always butt heads because you just toss out stuff that you read on other websites or books and they themselves have done little to no research.

What?!?

Right. I do endless research, MYSELF. These are NOT borrowed ideas - they are the results of study and inspiration - my own (study) and the Spirit's (inspiration).

That and you always isolate verses and interpret them by your bias. You are an unbeliever telling me, a Believer, what the Scriptures state.

And you are a self-righteous and unjustified judge of someone you have no right to judge.

Isolation of scriptures is a 'christian' tactic - I see it all the time. And using words that are totally outside of the bible (such as Christophany - what the HECK is THAT?), too.

You first give me a definition of the word "logos" and you latch onto the term, "Divine Expression". You then write that this Divine Expression equals "the express image of the Father is the Son".

Whatever. Continue in idolatry - my hands are clean. Have a nice day!

Isolation of scriptures is a 'christian' tactic - I see it all the time. And using words that are totally outside of the bible (such as Christophany - what the HECK is THAT?), too.

You claim to do research yet you have no idea what a Christophany is?

It is the appearance of the pre-incarnate Christ in OT times. A Theophany would be the appearance of God, such as the burning bush.

Also,

And you are a self-righteous and unjustified judge of someone you have no right to judge.

I judge your exegesis of Scripture.

This though made me chuckle, to my statement in regards to "logos" -

You first give me a definition of the word "logos" and you latch onto the term, "Divine Expression". You then write that this Divine Expression equals "the express image of the Father is the Son".

- You reply with -

Whatever. Continue in idolatry - my hands are clean. Have a nice day!

I find it humorous because YOU are the one who stated the exact same thing! I am only parroting what you previously stated, please observe.

You stated:

‘Divine Expression’ - the ‘express image of the Father’ is the Son.

Your making no sense in your objection. You decide to leave this topic because you are unable to reply and instead of saying, "Well those are some interesting thoughts, let me look into them more and get back with you", you skirt the meat of my reply to you and focus on the trivial, secondary stuff. I understand though, if you wish to bow out.

Originally posted by UnrealZA
You claim to do research yet you have no idea what a Christophany is?

I study the bible - not religion and not theology.

It is the appearance of the pre-incarnate Christ in OT times. A Theophany would be the appearance of God, such as the burning bush.

Who WAS God in the OT?

CHRIST!!!!!

I judge your exegesis of Scripture.

No, you called me an unbeliever and didn't even specify what it is you don't think I believe in. That's not exegesis, now, is it?

I apologize - I used to have a mind for these back and forth, point by point dissected debates....but I don't have the capacity for it these days and I have a hard time getting my thoughts out into a form that is understandable with someone whose thoughts and ideas are so oriented in religion. I mean no offense by that - just as you are religious minded I am absolutely not...that's just the way it is. But I can't communicate spiritual subtleties unless there is a common understanding between.

You seem to think that the God of the OT is the 'Father' Christ prays to in the NT, right?

If that is the case, then I can understand why you insist on the points being discussed. And I know I can't make you see something like that - I didn't see WHO Christ IS WAS and WILL BE until He (Christ) showed me.