US makes "Blunt" Threat to North Korea

North Korea was not part of the Bush political overview after he became president. The middle east was.

So while US keep sanctioning NK and making bold statements about their intentions . . . NK is not considered an imminent danger but just an obnoxious one.

The present administration has its hands too full with Iraq and the Middle East to even consider any attacks against NK that will only bring another mess to the administration dealings with overthrowing regimes.

So the present administration will not attack NK and is not in their plans either as long as they do not take actions directly against SK.

Originally posted by marg6043
So the present administration will not attack NK and is not in their plans either as long as they do not take actions directly against SK.

Hmm, while I agree with your point of view Marg, Chris Hill's position (as the Assistant Secretary of State going on record saying as much I have to take it as legitimate), that doesnt seem to be the posture at the moment.

Unless of course, it's US sabre rattling as i've mentioned earlier.


AB1

Originally posted by Neon Haze
Hope that makes my point of view clearer.

NeoN HaZe.

But in reality, the threat of a dirty bomb is yet another illusion. Its aim is to spread radioactive material through a conventional explosion. But almost all studies of such a possible weapon have concluded that the radiation spread in this way would not kill anyone because the radioactive material would be so dispersed and providing the area was cleaned promptly, the long term effects would be neglible.

Transcribed form Adam Curtis's "The Power of Nightmares"

Rep. Jim Turner, D-Texas, the top Democrat on the House Homeland Security Committee, jumped on the statement and said, "I am alarmed at the government's inadequate response to this very real threat."

Sounds ominous, until you realize that most of the radioactive material was recovered and that the missing radioactive sources "would not add up to one highly radioactive source," according to Nuclear Regulatory Commission spokeswoman Beth Hayden.

But the threat is real, not from dirty bombs but from overreactions or inappropriate responses that are many times worse than the threat itself.

As Theodore Rockwell, a nuclear engineer, member of the National Academy of Engineering and vice president of Radiation, Science and Health (RSH) [cnts.wpi.edu...], writes in the Washington Post, "The rules for radiological emergencies ... can change a relatively harmless incident into a life-threatening emergency." How? By escalating fear and panic instead of telling the truth about relatively small threats.

As Rockwell says, "it is well documented by all our official agencies that the radioactivity in dirty bombs is unlikely to seriously hurt anyone. People not injured by the conventional explosion itself could walk away and be out of danger. If concerned about possible contamination, they could remove their clothes and take a shower."

[See: www.washingtonpost.com...]

When Rockwell provided this information to an employee of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission years ago, the official "replied in horror that if he bought my reasoning, he'd have to ask what he was there for," confirming the First Law of Bureaucracy: Self-Preservation.

T. Don Luckey, Ph.D., professor and Chairman Emeritus, Department of Biochemistry, U. Missouri-Columbia School of Medicine, and author of several books on low-level radiation, goes even further than Rockwell.

In the journal "Radiation Protection Management" Luckey writes, "Persons outside the blast/debris/dust area should walk away safely." Indeed, "They will benefit" from radiation up to ten cGy, almost 100 times more than average radiation exposure in the U.S. from natural radiation, about 0.13 cGy per year.

If you're unlucky enough to be caught within the blast or dust zone from a radioactive dirty bomb, your biggest problem could be that very few facilities have enough knowledge or experience to do an appropriate evaluation of radiation exposure, much less provide appropriate treatment.

Paraphrasing Franklin D. Roosevelt, the biggest thing we have to fear is fear itself – nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror that is paralyzing a rational response to the radioactive dirty bomb threat.

Maybe it's time for us to toss out the Precautionary Principle, which makes the government responsible for predicting and resolving every danger under (and now including) the sun to everyone all the time, or at least spending piles of our money while pretending to do so.

Analyzing the real nature of threats and preparing for them will not only cost us less, it will also make us a lot safer. Let's stop buying into political and media fear mongering that robs us of our peace of mind, our resources and our ability to truly protect ourselves.
Link

I also hope that makes my point clearer

[edit on 5-10-2006 by john_bmth]

NK already has a nuclear detterant which the international community fully knows, works and has been tested (pakistan).
anyway the situation is too volatile to move to war over. there are too many factors involved to risk. least of all upsetting china and or starting anothere arms race, how would othere countries then view the usa, i'd concur they would seek to arm themselves to a level that would seriously make the usa think twice. Besides all these things america has been at war with NK for at least 20 years to my knowledge via informational means eg. forcing the high level of security destabalising the economy etc, Many don't know it but NK tried to deliver a biological attack (namely H5N1 influrenza virus modified in the usa) in the late eighties through a theird party in new york, although they came close they were stopped thanks to the n.s.a. and fbi. This has not been made official and you'll have to waite another 15 year or soif it ever comes out.
Once again war very doubtful

Originally posted by reaper2
Many don't know it but NK tried to deliver a biological attack (namely H5N1 influrenza virus modified in the usa) in the late eighties through a theird party in new york, although they came close they were stopped thanks to the n.s.a. and fbi. This has not been made official and you'll have to waite another 15 year or soif it ever comes out.
Once again war very doubtful

Well for myself, being amongst the many that dont know, how would you have privvy to this information?

Also, we cant really base our decisions or opinions on what we dont know, only on what we do know, or what has been made clear to us.

That said, however, I do agree with you when you say that war is highly doubtful, if not though, what exactly IS on the horizon if North Korea executes their planned test? Sanctions? Is that what Chris Hill is referring to? Im curious if that's everyone's take on that.


AB1

Edit for Typo

[edit on 5-10-2006 by alphabetaone]

[edit on 5-10-2006 by alphabetaone]

So the present administration will not attack NK and is not in their plans either as long as they do not take actions directly against SK.

I agree, but if they do go ahead with the test I think the least we could do is airdrop copies of
TEAM AMERICA: WORLD POLICE over their cities.

Originally posted by reaper2
Many don't know it but NK tried to deliver a biological attack (namely H5N1 influrenza virus modified in the usa) in the late eighties through a theird party in new york, although they came close they were stopped thanks to the n.s.a. and fbi. This has not been made official and you'll have to waite another 15 year or soif it ever comes out.
Once again war very doubtful

Sorry should have elaborated on that but i simply can't as there is no direct proof and would be dismissed as conspiracy nonsense.

posted by alphabetaone

posted by Faint

Well you could simply bomb the holy be-Jesus out of him with the USA's incredible air force , and there is always the option of withdrawing from Iraq if needs bee

Hmmm . . I’m not sure drawing out of Iraq is even a viable option at all . . not if we intend for any measure of stability there. Personally I think the US at the moment is writing checks that they can’t cover by making such threats. I think because they believe most of what is being said by North Korea is saber rattling rhetoric, they feel as though some of the same directed back at them may make them think twice. Only time will tell . . [Edited by Don W]

1) We’ve had 3 years and 2,800 dead GIs to bring stability to Iraq. Just yesterday a whole battalion of 700 newly trained police were arrested for aiding and abetting the death squads. We lost 18 men in the last 7 days. Bush43 said the job was done on May 1, 2003. Bush43 said democracy was now in Iraq after we held 3 elections. Bush43 appeared on tv to tell us the US had killed al Zarqawi - murder is right - and that the insurgency would soon bo over. Geez.

In the last election, it was an Iraqi joke that you had to vote to get the US out of Iraq! I can’t remember how long it has been since the current effort at a US puppet government was started but it surely has not succeeded. Let's face it, we blew it, big!

The only way out of Iraq for America is to invoke the ‘Sue For Peace’ of old Europe, and let the UN mediate our withdrawal.

Otherwise, we are looking for a 1975 Saigon type withdrawal. Let’s's quit the killing of our own men uselessly. And stop killing Iraqis.

2) As for the US vis a vis NK, that is another of Bush43's L E G A C Y. There was an agreement in 2001, but Bush43 broke it unilaterally. As is his custom. We ordinary citizens are paying the price for incompetence at magnificent levels.

China controls NK. They will do what China tells them to do. The US refuses to talk directly to the NK. The US refuses to talk to Cuba. The US refuses to talk to the Hamas. The US refuses to talk to the Hezbollah. The US refuses to talk to the Iranians. Hmm? Why do we need a secretary of state? She who has the bad memory of her days a NSC. Per Bob Woodward. Which do you believe?

North Korea wants bilateral talks with the United States before the six-party talks resume and it wants Washington to ease up on economic pressures. US Sec. Hill repeated that the United States was willing to meet with North Korean officials, but only within the context of six-party talks.

Does this sound like children?

"If there could be less mistrust between the two, certainly I think it will lead to good results," U.N. Ambassador Wang Guangya said. China, Pyongyang's closest ally, called on all parties to return to the six-party talks . . In order to solve the North Korean nuclear issue, Ambassador Guangya said China and many other countries believed the key was progress in U.S.-North Korean relations. [Edited by Don W]
www.cnn.com...

I plainly do not understand the US policy towards NK. All they want is 3-4 nuclear plants - paid for by the US - and food for a couple years. And our troops out of South Korea. We are playing a high stakes poker game where the consequences are too high for the talent of our bettor.


[edit on 10/5/2006 by donwhite]

If North Korea does do a nuclear test you can bet that region will be in chaos for a while. And you can bet Japan will vastly upgrade their military probably adding a few nuclear weapons. Which China would not want, at. a-l-l.

And the Bush43 regime is egging this on (NK nuclear test) by its refusal to build 3 Westinghouse nuclear plants, a few million tons of ADM soy beans and Gargill wheat and rice, and the promise to begin withdrawing US forces from South Korea.



[edit on 10/5/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite


1) We’ve had 3 years and 2,800 dead GIs to bring stability to Iraq. Just yesterday a whole battalion of 700 newly trained police were arrested for aiding and abetting the death squads. We lost 18 men in the last 7 days. Bush43 said the job was done on May 1, 2003. Bush43 said democracy was now in Iraq after we held 3 elections. Bush43 appeared on tv to tell us the US had killed al Zarqasi - murder is right - and that the insurgency would soon bo over. Geez.

Not to derail my own thread, but as a quick note regarding Iraq, what you say is obviously true, but my largest fear NOW would be, that if the US pulls troops out, lock stock and barrel, that instead of easing tensions, now the innocent would suffer by being accused that they were in bed with the aggresors (the US) and just randomly killed.

Originally posted by donwhite
As is his custom. We ordinary citizens are paying the price for incompetence at magnificent levels.

Agreed.

Originally posted by donwhite

I plainly do not understand the US policy towards NK. All they want is 3-4 nuclear plants - paid for by the US - and food for a couple years. And our troops out of South Korea. We are playing a high stakes poker game where the consequences are too high for the talent of our bettor.

Well, I think that's probably and exactly the root of the question..IS that, in fact, all they want? Or do their ambitions run higher? Personally I cant necessarily say I blame them IF they are looking at detterent as the primary reason for what they're escalating now. If the US were to attack NK then the problem would be that their suspicions would be founded. It's a vicious circle, if you create the "bomb" you're viewed as an "axis of evil", if you dont, you open the door for aggresion and military bullying.

The stakes are certainly running high...

I agree with you there donwhite, one of the worst strategies of the present administration is the way in which seems to push agendas around the world while been adamant to talk to leaders of other nations directly.

The excuses is that they are evil regimes, dictatorships and totalitarian governments, but in reality is just an excuses and a very bad policy like all the policies involving the Bush administration so far.

Because you can not push your own views while backing up what you consider friends to the US that happen to be also, dictatorships, totalitarian and feudal monarchies.

But that is the legacy that the present administration will leave behind, a mess in the Middle East and imminent treats all over the world and all the enemies to the US that his policies have created.

The US wants China to take control of NK issues but China is just adding to the problems with NK.

While the population in that country starves their regimes seems to find plenty of funding for their nuclear program.

Nations can no stay in power as the leader of the free world while ignoring the needs of other countries that are screaming for it.

Turning your back to these problematic nations and trying to have regime changes has proven not to be a very good strategic plan of action.

Bombing a nation like NK like some wants in this thread proves that many people thinks that violence can fix it all.

Well look what Iraq has turned into and tell me if that is fixing any problems,. Is just creating more problems for our future.

Originally posted by marg6043

The excuses is that they are evil regimes, dictatorships and totalitarian governments, but in reality is just an excuses and a very bad policy like all the policies involving the Bush administration so far.

The excuses, to me, are far less disheartening than what it does to the average person that lives there. The starving masses while US policy refuses to talk with them, these poor people just die.

Originally posted by marg6043
Because you can not push your own views while backing up what you consider friends to the US that happen to be also, dictatorships, totalitarian and feudal monarchies.

Good point.

Originally posted by marg6043
But that is the legacy that the present administration will leave behind, a mess in the Middle East and imminent treats all over the world and all the enemies to the US that his policies have created.

If there's a world left to retain a legacy at all. Let's hope there is, and someone with a modicum of decency starts to clean up this mess.

Originally posted by marg6043
The US wants China to take control of NK issues but China is just adding to the problems with NK.

Hmmmm how do you mean, in what way do you see them adding to the problems with NK?

Originally posted by marg6043
While the population in that country starves their regimes seems to find plenty of funding for their nuclear program.

Nations can no stay in power as the leader of the free world while ignoring the needs of other countries that are screaming for it.

Turning your back to these problematic nations and trying to have regime changes has proven not to be a very good strategic plan of action.

Well, I agree personally. However, it depends a lot on what the motive is of those calling the shots, wouldnt you say? What I mean is, if your motive is to create chaos, a world opinion of the US that is incredibly low, and exercise bullying tactics across the globe, then I would have to say that its a great strategic plan of action.

Originally posted by marg6043
Bombing a nation like NK like some wants in this thread proves that many people thinks that violence can fix it all.

Well look what Iraq has turned into and tell me if that is fixing any problems,. Is just creating more problems for our future.

Completely agree


AB1

Originally posted by alphabetaone

Originally posted by marg6043
The US wants China to take control of NK issues but China is just adding to the problems with NK.

Hmmmm how do you mean, in what way do you see them adding to the problems with NK?

While China sends aids for the starving people is also a lot of money that is funding the nuclear programs of NK.

China supplies most of North Korea's energy and almost half its food, we all know how secretive is China when it comes to his own dealings with other nations.

www.parapundit.com...

See the link?

We have a country that survives in foreign aid to feed his own people, but at the same time the leadership of NK has plenty of money or . . .[it seems] to build a nuclear program that is very expensive to keep.

Originally posted by marg6043

While China sends aids for the starving people is also a lot of money that is funding the nuclear programs of NK.

China supplies most of North Korea's energy and almost half its food, we all know how secretive is China when it comes to his own dealings with other nations.

www.parapundit.com...

See the link?

We have a country that survives in foreign aid to feed his own people, but at the same time the leadership of NK has plenty of money or . . .[it seems] to build a nuclear program that is very expensive to keep.

Yes, I see what you mean. Also I agree with the article in the link where it states that the only way to really gain a great deal of leverage would be for China to cease aid, and that's unlikely to happen.

I think a lot hinges on just how suicidal NK really is...and how desperate they could become. If China were, in fact, to cut off aid? I hate to think of the possibilities, especially for the poor people in the Korean Peninsula.


AB1

I remember reading the account of a high level defector from the north a year or so ago about how even the hesitation to endorse any idea of the dear leader could result in fatal consequences. How can anyone who has nothing he says or does questioned keep in touch with reaity?

Donwhite, I don't agree that appeasement of Kim with a few reactors and food will work, I don't believe that's what he wants or is the game he's playing.

What's interesting here is the dance going on with the Chinese and South Koreans.

Economic interests below the surface of Japanese / American nationalist hostility from Koreans will determine what happens in the end.

If Kim sets off the big one, I doubt you'll see more than U.N. protests and a half-hearted embargo. The south will veto any military action from the U.S.

posted by alphabetaone

“ . . my largest fear NOW would be if the US pulls troops out that instead of easing tensions, now the innocent would suffer by being accused that they were in bed with the aggressors and just randomly killed.

Recrimination. Yes. But wait up. We get reports that 25 to 50 Iraqi bodies are found daily, tortured, then executed. All that while we have 140,000 men in Iraq. We can’t put more troops there, we don’t have them, and we can’t get any ally to send in their troops. We are at an impasse. What do rational people do when we run up a dead end street? So your worst fear has already mateeialized. So what’s the next strep? I suggested earlier the best we can look for is a mediated withdrawal.

Well, I think the root of the question..IS that, in fact, all they want? Or do their ambitions run higher? Personally I cant necessarily say I blame them IF they are looking at deterrent as the primary reason for what they're escalating now. [Edited by Don W]

They want to be admitted fully to the trade and commerce of the world. They want outside help so they can participate in the rush of industry from the West to the East. The US has the same hangup with NK it has with Cuba. We are unable to deal with a communist. We are willing to jeopardize our grand children’s future because of this hang-up. Everybody need not look like us no matter how much we think they should. It is grow up time in America.


[edit on 10/5/2006 by donwhite]

I don't see any other alternative but for military action against North Korea if it tests a nuclear device.
sanctions do not work
Some people say they have a sovereign right to do so, and yes they do.

But, by conducting such a test ,Other countries in the area, specificially Japan will feel the need to protect themelves.Concidering nk to be a threat, Japan would probably drop out of the NPT and start producing thier own nuclear bombs.

This could lead to an arms race in the reigon, Something the world does not want.
China would definitely be involved..no good

either way it looks bad

PEADY I have often wondered if that is some people's goals...to start an arms race between China, Japan, and India.

Good ol Korea,
They've just thrown a complete spanner in the works for the US.

So who's nuke are they testing... theirs.. or Irans?

The US administration is really starting to face the consequences of starting a military adventure over these wmd's....

All the US admin wanted to do, was let sept11 happen.. lose some country men.. create an excuse to enter iraq... capture those oil fields.. then sit back as the millions and millions rolled in off our friends rebuilding contracts... our oil interests... and our foreign embassies..

They never expected Iran and Nkorea to publically stand up to the US.. especially after the shock and awe.. that who debarcle was purely a message to the rest of the world... "F**K with us.. we'll F**K U up.."

So what now bush and co?

You created such a ruckus over iraq's wmd's... are you going to allow nkorea and iran to show the world what your really about ?

Or are you going to try a quick fix to the problem with some strategically placed bombs...

Its a shame the most powerful and develouped nation on the planet... couldnt stop such a disgrace coming to power over them... look where its gotten us now!

God bless America, cause your leader is ensuring your all going to needs the lords help... real real soon!