Why haven't you joined the Taleban?

If there was a Democrat in the Whitehouse during 9/11 are you saying that we would not have gone to war.. we would not have gone after Bin Laden.. that we would not begin to dismantle terror networks? Basically we would be doing exactly what Clinton did. Fire expensive Cruise Missles discrimitivly where ever there might possibly be a bad guy and accomplishing nothing. Good job Clinton. You failed.

I picture George Bush sitting at a bar with Bin Laden saying:

George: "Nice job Bin man. Your home videos for the news where simply superb. These "simple life" minded citizens still think that terrorists helped us get a excuse to conquer Iraq and Afghanistan for our oil for dollars/money driven agendas. They still know that we have recovered advanced anti-gravity alien spacecraft but still can not figure out that we do have free energy technology in our possession. This is great, not only the trading currency for oil is still the dollar instead of the Euro, but we are now able to use oil as a world tax!

Bin Laden: "Quite true. These "simple minded" nine to fivers actually believe that you keep catching these top terrorist leaders alive and without a fight. But, I must say that your "9-11 attack show" was very sloppy. Despite only a small hole in the side of the Pentagon, bombs going off at the bottom of the Trade Center, a completely untouched building 7 becoming completely demolished about 7 hours after the 2 major buildings fell to the ground, the plane over Pennsylvania being shot down and the ground being missiled to indicate a crash, your people skills still seemed to hypnotize the people like a herd of sheep. Ha, ha, hah... Your still the man...Bush man!"

George Bush: "No, you da man!.....Bin Man!"

George Bush and Bin Laden: "Ha, Ha, Ha, Hah......"

because i like watching my tele and no way am in faver of a teleban

If Bush wasn't in the WH on 9/11, we might not of had an attack on the WTC. Shoulda, coulda, woulda. You conjecturing about what might of happened is ridiculous.

The Taliban didn't attack the US but did provide material support to a group of terrorists who followed UB Laden. Who by the way isn't all that popular within most of Afghanistani which is another artificial country created by Great Britain after WW1.

I agree that human greed is what is fueling this conflict between Islam and the West. If you or anybody else knows of some way to limit humanity of greed and jealousy, it woud be great but it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

The Gaians movement who want to eliminate 90-95% of humanity are nothing but another bunch of religious fanatics who are no better than anybody else who espouses to be the chosen people.

We need social, political and technological solutions in order for humanity to survive in the future. Pick your nightmare scenario and work hard against it but not with a mind closed to alternatives.

BTW I'm a retired USAF Ammo troop who thinks we never should have gotten involved in the Middle East conflict from Day1. We've wasted billions of dollars of money defending foreign oil fields that would have been far better spent on alternative energy research and development. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, Grady. Not every one who serves(d) believes the lies and propaganda put forth by out gov't who's controlled by the corporate global hegemony.

CRGINTX

I agree we never should have gone over there, but what should have been done? What could have been the better solution? I personally think (assuming the gov had nothing to do with 9/11 which I also think they did) that we should attack the camps, attack the drug trades, freeze the finances and stop this nation building crap. The idea being democracy will securalize them and make them apart of the globalized world. In other words make them more conserned about finances, morgages, what britney spears is doing then their religion or having the time to join a flag burning celebration.
But what should we have done?

Congress does not control the government if it does not have access to the highest levels of secrecy!

Those who control the "Top Secrets" and high levels of secrecy can control and overrule any of the countries laws, directions, and commands by keeping their operations in secret from congress and the public.
The CIA and some people in the White House are the ones who knew about the plans to stage the 9-11 attack, not congress or lower level people in government like soldiers and security officers. Those lower level people in government just follow orders and rarely receive full explainations of what is really going on.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by Flyboy211

Originally posted by bsbray11
just happen to dwell upon a lot of oil

I think i can safely just copy this short extract without taking things out of context. I am getting tired of constantly reading people's 'belief' that it is purely a war to do with oil.

One sentence in and you've already taken it out of context. I never said these wars were "purely...to do with oil." But you're not going to tell me it didn't play a role when these massive corporations, represented in the current administration by Bush, Cheney, and Condi (all formerly in the oil business), are about to go the way of the dinosaur to advancing energy technology. I would keep in mind who pays for things, and who actually makes profit, too. As an example, the US government is paying trillions of dollars for the Iraq war, but it's going into the pockets of our military industrial complex corporations, and corporations like Halliburton. They don't have to pay; they get paid.

[edit on 25-9-2006 by bsbray11]

Well i was also referring to other peoples arguments that oil was the major factor for the Iraq war, something you clearly missed. By the looks of it, i haven't taken it out of context since you clearly state that oil has a big part in what's happened, which is tripe. Tell me why would a government wage war in a distant land, at a huge effort when the return from 'oil' is minimal, considering the constant sabotage problems, not to mention the limited supply of oil that is actually left. There are other oil reserves at much nearer locations. Plus there is still some oil left in the US, such as Alaska, Virginia (i think), Texas & Gulf of Mexico.

Here's something :-

www.scaruffi.com...

(Note: discoveries of 2003 and 2004 have vastly increased the oil reserves of both Canada and Australia. They both seem to harbor more oil than Iraq and both may be able to compete with Saudi Arabia)

Also :-

www.infoplease.com...

I guess they'll be invading Australia & Canada next

Whilst it does show that oil production is higher in the Middle Eastern countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Iraq, United Arab Emirates etc, i'd suspect they'll run out quicker than other countries, thus making the venture for oil rather pointless.

That's bit of an asinine comment regarding the "military industrial complex" pocketing money from the US government. Well if they supply the US military with arms and equipment of course they'll get paid for it lol. Why would they suddenly go for overseas defense contractors when it is much easier and conducive for the economy to go for homegrown ones. Btw this is something not unique to the US government either, but i guess it's convenient to omit that fact.

[edit on 25/9/06 by Flyboy211]

[edit on 25/9/06 by Flyboy211]

First and foremost, get our forces out of the Middle East. The terrorists can claim victory until their green in the face for all I care. Every time they commit an attack on Americans, we hunt them down and then return to their home countries from an airplane without landing or a parachute. Let the Euro's, the Russians and the Chinese deal with them. The borders of every country over there we're created by the British after WW1 and are artificial not historical.

If those who oppose our selected gov't policies want to burn effigies of the President and the US Flag in protest, who are we to tell them they can't? Tell them like it is. We support the right if Israel to exist and freedom of worship. If you don't like it, tough!
Impose tax sanctions on every product porduced and imported from those countries until they recognize the right of Israel to exist and freedom worship is established in those countries. Our dollars speak louder than our bombs ever will.

If we truly want to influence the world again in meaningful way, start a real and well funded govt and corporate sponsored program to get us off our petroleum based energy system/economy as soon as possible. Every thing else is just lip service.

I have not read every response, but...

You say "Taleban" when what you really mean is "Islam".

I am over fifty years old, my knees are shot, I get winded easily (thank god I've had the will to quit smoking) and I really hate getting out of bed early in the morning. These are my primary reasons for not enlisting in the US or Canadian militaries. However, when placed in the context of asking me "why havn't I joined the Taliban?", I think that I would happily lie about my age......say I'm only twenty but I have incredibly bad genes and that I just "look old for my age". I'd tell them that my knees hurt because I'm a slackard and that I just don't 'feel like running". Given a choice between being a member of the military or a Taliban I know that I would do anything to join the military.

While I might not like running around, slogging an eighty pound pack on my back, I know -- for certain -- that I would prefer the military life to any life that a Taliban could offer me.

Originally posted by crgintx
First and foremost, get our forces out of the Middle East. The terrorists can claim victory until their green in the face for all I care. Every time they commit an attack on Americans, we hunt them down and then return to their home countries from an airplane without landing or a parachute. Let the Euro's, the Russians and the Chinese deal with them. The borders of every country over there we're created by the British after WW1 and are artificial not historical.

That would achieve what exactly? If you do that you'd only show that their tactics are successful and would likely encourage them to commit further acts. So what you'd propose is retreat all American forces from the region, from a conflict in which America (and Britain admittedly) initiated, and let everyone else deal with it? That's fine and dandy, sends a nice message to everyone else. Yes Britain had a hand in slicing up Arabia into the countries it is now, although how can the current UK government be held responsible or culpable for something it had no hand in whatsoever?

Originally posted by crgintx
If those who oppose our selected gov't policies want to burn effigies of the President and the US Flag in protest, who are we to tell them they can't? Tell them like it is. We support the right if Israel to exist and freedom of worship. If you don't like it, tough!
Impose tax sanctions on every product porduced and imported from those countries until they recognize the right of Israel to exist and freedom worship is established in those countries. Our dollars speak louder than our bombs ever will.

That'll only stall trade since they would inevitably do the same to the US. Economic sanctions IMO never work. You're not going to enforce the changes you mentioned by 'the might of the dollar' as it were.

Originally posted by crgintx
If we truly want to influence the world again in meaningful way, start a real and well funded govt and corporate sponsored program to get us off our petroleum based energy system/economy as soon as possible. Every thing else is just lip service.

Well i agree, at least on developing immediate new technology, such as hydrogen power. Hydrogen can be extracted from the most abundant resource on Earth, water which covers 70% of the planet. It's a commodity and resource that countries cannot claim a monopoly over and would certainly get rid of this ridiculous 'war for oil' theory that people are fascinated with.

I don't want a world gov't. I can barely stand the US gov't, why would I want some joker from China, India or Europe telling me that I can't own guns, speak freely or worship whatever incarnation of God that I choose to?
I spoke of economic sanctions because it's the most powerful form of protest. War is the choice of last resort indicating a total failure of statemanship. I don't want to export American values or import world values. I don't believe that our form of governing is perfect but it's proven itself to better than any other form that has come before it.

Originally posted by Flyboy211
By the looks of it, i haven't taken it out of context since you clearly state that oil has a big part in what's happened, which is tripe.

Show me where I have stated this.

If you can't I would stop (a) putting words in other peoples' mouths, and (b) doing so while using qualifiers such as "clearly".

Whilst it does show that oil production is higher in the Middle Eastern countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Iraq, United Arab Emirates etc, i'd suspect they'll run out quicker than other countries, thus making the venture for oil rather pointless.

I'm not sure if you get my suggestion about alternative forms of energy becoming harder to suppress. Electric and hybrid cars are becoming bigger priorities, for example, just recently. This has nothing to do with "how much" but more to do with "how quickly".

That's bit of an asinine comment regarding the "military industrial complex" pocketing money from the US government. Well if they supply the US military with arms and equipment of course they'll get paid for it lol. Why would they suddenly go for overseas defense contractors when it is much easier and conducive for the economy to go for homegrown ones. Btw this is something not unique to the US government either, but i guess it's convenient to omit that fact.

So, you agree with the obvious that all of the trillions we're spending is going to our military corporations, but you then shake this off by pointing out that other countries pay their military corporations too.

Well, I guess I'm just too stupid to have realized that the US isn't alone in spending trillions on these wars. However, can you show me any other countries on the face of the Earth that have been spending even nearly this amount of money on these wars?

Not that I think the fact that other countries aren't doing it too is that relevant anyway. I just don't like the way you're throwing unsound logic at me as if I'm retarded. If they were all doing it, the point would be the same.

[edit on 25-9-2006 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by tom goose


are you implying that a foreign enemy attacked the US inside US boarders? Show me your proof. there hasn't been a single bit of solid evidence to say that anyone that wasn't american attacked america. You base your entire opinion of false facts.
your own government killed your people, and you re-elected that government.

[edit on 25-9-2006 by tom goose]

Where is your evidence of this?

Originally posted by bsbray11
Show me where I have stated this.

Lol cmon you could've done this yourself :-

Originally posted by bsbray11
And course GOOD is always us, the home team, the world superpower, Fatherland, for whom security must be ensured against the vile, cave-dwelling scum of the Earth, who also just happen to dwell upon a lot of oil and ancient sites and provide us with a good excuse to put trillions into a war. Just happen to that is; those are all unintended consequences of these bad guys. Of course.

Obviously the reference is to Afghanistan, the 'cave dwelling' part and ancient site, and this is a topic in the Taliban. You insinuated it had something to do with oil by the "just happen to dwell upon a lot of oil" (which seems to formulate a lot of the anti-war argument - built on lies? surely not!).

Originally posted by bsbray11
If you can't I would stop (a) putting words in other peoples' mouths, and (b) doing so while using qualifiers such as "clearly".

I didn't put words in your mouths since you clearly..oops another qualifier lol, since you certainly make a reference to oil and how it all adds up to your wonderfully put symposium on the "unintended consequences".

This too..

Originally posted by bsbray11
One sentence in and you've already taken it out of context. I never said these wars were "purely...to do with oil." But you're not going to tell me it didn't play a role when these massive corporations, represented in the current administration by Bush, Cheney, and Condi (all formerly in the oil business)

Originally posted by bsbray11
I'm not sure if you get my suggestion about alternative forms of energy becoming harder to suppress. Electric and hybrid cars are becoming bigger priorities, for example, just recently. This has nothing to do with "how much" but more to do with "how quickly".

You never stated it in such a concise manner, more along the lines of "are about to go the way of the dinosaur to advancing energy technology.". Doesn't elaborate or clarify much. Why would cheaper alternatives be suppressed? Obviously whoever develops and produces cleaner technology first has the advantage, thus making the war for oil argument pointless.

Originally posted by bsbray11
So, you agree with the obvious that all of the trillions we're spending is going to our military corporations, but you then shake this off by pointing out that other countries pay their military corporations too.

Well if you're spending more on weapons, ammunition, supplies etc who else is going to get the money? Hence why it's a stupid comment. My point being it isn't new nor is it a bad thing that a country deals with defence contractors from its own country. Logistics is a factor as well as reducing cost wherever possible. The US doesn't NEED to buy from elsewhere since it can be supplied from US companies. As for spending trillions, that's the consequence of having a high tech military, things are more expensive to procure and maintain, simple. There is no conspiracy to massively profit homegrown organisations in order to further imperialistic goals abroad.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Well, I guess I'm just too stupid to have realized that the US isn't alone in spending trillions on these wars. However, can you show me any other countries on the face of the Earth that have been spending even nearly this amount of money on these wars?

You said it not me, stupidity i mean. I never mentioned anything about spending trillions, my point was referring to why it's normal to deal with your own companies rather than others. Something you seemed to have a problem, which i pointed out is a common practice among most countries. I also don't think any other country could afford to foot such large bills. Except perhaps China maybe. Look at the biggest economies in the world and that should just about give you enough of a hint.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Not that I think the fact that other countries aren't doing it too is that relevant anyway. I just don't like the way you're throwing unsound logic at me as if I'm retarded. If they were all doing it, the point would be the same.

I deemed it relevant because you made a point of the US dealing with US defence contractors as somehow being sinister?



[edit on 25/9/06 by Flyboy211]

Originally posted by Flyboy211
Obviously the reference is to Afghanistan, the 'cave dwelling' part and ancient site, and this is a topic in the Taliban. You insinuated it had something to do with...You never stated it in such a concise manner..

No, I asked for you to back this up:

Originally posted by Flyboy211
By the looks of it, i haven't taken it out of context since you clearly state that oil has a big part in what's happened, which is tripe.

All I'm saying is this: you're throwing words around too loosely and claiming that I'm saying things that I am not. I would know. I've posted what I think. It does not match what you're saying I said. It's very easy to confirm this. Ok man? Just leave it at that; everything will be ok.

And regardless of whether you think I'm stating the obvious or what-have-you, the fact is that our military corporations are receiving trillions of dollars for these wars, and no other country on the face of the Earth is paying anything approaching to that amount; it is not "normal" neither in history nor modern military spending, and our government is going into unprecedented debt for this spending. I'll leave that as it stands as well, because you just keep trying to split hairs and I'd had enough of that in "debates" by the time I was 16. Anyone can do it if they feel they have enough ego on the line. Later.

[edit on 25-9-2006 by bsbray11]

This thread seems to be having a great deal of difficulty staying on topic.

I would like to remind members that the topic is
Why haven't you joined the Taleban?

Please refrain from discussing other ideas, each other and general bickering.

Why haven't I joined the Taleban.

Because they slaughter innocents?

Because they don't believe in the same rights that I do?

Originally posted by XphilesPhan

Originally posted by tom goose


are you implying that a foreign enemy attacked the US inside US boarders? Show me your proof. there hasn't been a single bit of solid evidence to say that anyone that wasn't american attacked america. You base your entire opinion of false facts.
your own government killed your people, and you re-elected that government.

[edit on 25-9-2006 by tom goose]

Where is your evidence of this?

sorry pal, im not going to avoid common sense, while waiting for proof that will never come, and even if it does, it will never come to light.

this isn't the thread for 9/11 facts.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
So what is this? a thread dedicated to pacifism? thats all fine and dandy if you live in a country who isnt involved with what happened.

It is difficult to be a pacifist when your enemy is dedicated to killing you....oh but what enemy you say?

The enemy that has attacked the US and allies and its interests on many occasions.

this is what got me started. this was never an attack on the US or it's allies, it is simply the US and their allies protecting their interests. and these interests happen to suppress another groups interests, and that is to thrive and live in peace and luxery the way we do. but no, this cannot be, cause that would mean the US would have to share thier wealth or change the system.

Why cant Iraq sell it's oil in Dinar? maybe then the region can enjoy some prosperity and then this Dinar i bought for dirt cheap might be worth something

Why does it have to be sold in US dollars? this bothers me more, because my country Canada has the 2nd largest oil reserve and we are going to have to fork it over too.

It was my homeland that was attacked and we are defending ourselves...if that hurts your pacifistic liberal nature too much.....too bad....if you are in a neutral country, shut your damn yap.

Now nobody can prove that 9/11 was an inside job, but you also cannot prove otherwise. so say it how it is, you dont care if anybody attacked you, what the government is doing is obviously good for america, otherwise they would not be doing it right?

I wish half these people would go live in the middle east for a month and come back and friggin APPRECIATE the fact they can open threads like this and enjoy being able to be a pacifist.

maybe the middle east would be so bad it US, Britain, and Israel would stay out. ya i said it ISRAEL should get out, go to africa, and spread all of your love out there.

otherwise go join the taliban and live in a cave.....I dont have much breath to waste on traitors to their own.

for starters, Bin Laden lives in a cave, because he is part of a militia, and that is their fox holes. middle easterners live modestly yes, but within their means. Ive spent years living in the bush (no desert in northern canada) and believe me when i say that their is a great satisfaction to living off your land, in a community. maybe you dont know what that is like because you spend your life relying on foriegn goods and services in order to sustain your level of comfort. You talk about spreading peace, yet you ignore what happened here in North America with the native indians. In the end, hundreds of years after we first came here, they still strive to live in their own cultrure, and no matter how much money we throw at them, they are never going to be happy.

Originally posted by Flyboy211

What the hell? lol

You ask someone to produce 'facts' on the attacks on America being perpetrated by non-American nationals. Yet you claim that it was an attack by American personnel lol. Evidence please or you can simply 'bail out' Goose.

Who's the top gun now?

Iv'e seen more than enough proof that the story i heard about sept,11/01 was wrong, so wrong that it needs to be re-investigated . but it hasn't. I may suggest, that the Bush administration is involved, mainly cause its obviouse, but all i would aske is that a proper investigation be done and every one involved be arested and prosicuted. I would not suggest storming the whitehouse, interigate and torture (if nessessary) any one that is in the area of say.... the USA, and wage whats promised to be a 10 year war until i had some FACTS.

Originally posted by Flyboy211

Originally posted by bsbray11
just happen to dwell upon a lot of oil

I think i can safely just copy this short extract without taking things out of context. I am getting tired of constantly reading people's 'belief' that it is purely a war to do with oil. Cmon how many times can a dead horse be flogged until there is no carcass left? This is a simplistic argument used against the 'big bad government' (or is it wolf?) for the sake of it, because it's the trend to bash the government and is the popular thing to do, talk about sheep.

It is about Oil, and it is far from simple. Everytime someone brings up the term Petro-dollar recycling, everyone shuts up. and if you think it isn't important to the US, i would like to see them do away with it for awhile.

Take the following example: Japan needs to import oil for domestic use. To do so it must first acquire dollars, as the dollar is the only currency in which oil can be traded. To acquire these dollars, Japan must sell goods and services to the U.S. economy. The Japanese build a Honda to sell to the U.S. The U.S. federal reserve prints a certain amount of dollars and gives these to the Japanese in exchange for the Honda. The Japanese buy oil from Saudi Arabia using these dollars. The Saudis take the dollars and reinvest them in the Federal Reserve Bank of the U.S., and from then on they will only be used as a reserve currency. Therefore, all the U.S. had to do to acquire a Honda, was to print dollars. In essence, it has its very own money tree. The result of this is that the total debt of the United States is somewhere in the region of $8.4 trillion and increasing by $80 million per hour.

en.wikipedia.org...

So oil isn't an issue huh?

There's no conclusive evidence anyone in our government did anything to engineer the attacks on 9/11. Don't go screaming about that. If something seems fishy, then investigate, but don't forget to analyze any theories you or others have with the same standards..