The Rapture Conspiracy Explained

Lets stick to teh issue of the rapture as conspiracy, rather than who decided what books go in the bible, you can discuss that at any of these threads:
www.belowtopsecret.com...
www.belowtopsecret.com...
www.belowtopsecret.com...
www.belowtopsecret.com...
www.belowtopsecret.com...

Or check out this insightful and scholarly look at the question:
www.tertullian.org...

Hi Nygdan:

Nygdan >> Lets stick to the issue of the rapture as conspiracy, rather than who decided what books go in the bible, you can discuss that at any of these threads:”

Thank you for attempts to keep this debate on track. I was let down to see once again my debating opponents refusing to simply “quote >>” from my thesis, evidence or conclusions presented in the Opening Post to offer their ‘opposing views’ for something else. They fail to even realize that every statement in my two part Opening Post remains standing, until one of them gathers the courage to ‘quote me >>’ and present an explanation for something else. My premise is that ANY interpretation that connects ‘our’ mystery Rapture (1Thes. 4:17 = 1Cor. 15:51-53) to the ‘Great Tribulation’ (Matt. 24:21) is DEAD WRONG. Paul connects our mystery (1Cor. 15:51) gathering to the Lord (1Thes. 4:16+17) to when the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) is AT HAND (2Thes. 2:2). When do any of my critics step up to the plate and try to refute my statements on this TIMING of the Rapture? Do we understand the prophecies of the “Day of the Lord” (Rev. 1:10 = “Lord’s Day) enough to write two paragraphs on that topic?

Christ knows exactly how the “Day of the Lord” WILL END. That is what His Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24) is all about. However, He does not know how that same 1000 Years (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) period will BEGIN. Again, Paul connects ‘our’ (mystery church = Eph. 5:32 = His body church = Col. 1:24) gathering to when the ‘times and epochs’ (1Thes 5:1+2 = Acts 1:6+7) of the Day of the Lord “BEGINS.”

These members sit there and write under the pretense that the ‘at hand’ (2Thes 2:2) characteristics of Paul’s prophecy of ‘our’ Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) take place at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+); as if the “Day of the Lord” has no “duration” at all. THAT is the kind of false interpretation that my OP seeks to discredit and disprove. My debating opponents are rambling about this book of the Bible and that, as if this is their personal chat room and nobody must address the evidence of my Opening Post. They are certainly confusing activity with actually accomplishing anything. I cannot even “quote >>” any of them writing on this topic! Shame, shame . . .

Somebody please head back up to the OP and address something that I did say on this topic. Heck, I may as well take the members off ignore who do not even believe in a Rapture. At least their ranting is on something related to this topic.

GL in the debate . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

""Thank you for attempts to keep this debate on track. I was let down to see once again my debating opponents refusing to simply “quote >>” from my thesis, evidence or conclusions presented in the Opening Post to offer their ‘opposing views’ for something else. They fail to even realize that every statement in my two part Opening Post remains standing, until one of them gathers the courage to ‘quote me >>’ and present an explanation for something else""


In debates the evidence to refute would not come from same evidence you use to prove your point. Maybe you dont quite understand how a debate works, but it is to the person stating position to use whatever evidence they decide, not you.
You want to be judge and jury, and that just doesnt work in a open debate. It may work in fundamentalist religions, which is where the close mindedness probably comes from for most fundies. They cannot see because they dont open their eyes.

Second, the foundation for "the Rapture" comes from 2-3 passages mostly from books suspect to begin with, or are taken out of context to fit into preconcieved theories of religious doctrine. So if the Bible is found to be an assembly of writings bound together by an Emperor trying to save an empire, it has Direct consequence to the conclusion you are attempting to draw; the foundation for your conclusion is the bible, and the bible is found corrupted, then your conclusion is corrupted.

third, If Christ really thought the Rapture was so goshdarned important, would there be entire sermons devoted specifically to the that event? more than just a word here, or there. He does devote entire sermons to helping the poor, hungry, needy, sick, jailed, etc. Maybe we should start there.

I've been watching this thread for a few days and I think I finally figured out where the conspiracy is. All this focus on the rapture has distracted us "from the simplicity that is in Christ". Shouldn't the real issue of a rapture ( s ) be that we try to get right with God? If there is a rapture or a few raptures, we'll all know about it when it happens.

Corinthians says that you can even go so far as to "give your body to be burned" (for your religious beliefs) which is about as adamant as a person can get, "but have not love it profits you NOTHING". (emphasis and parentheticals are mine).
All this back and forth arguing about matters of no importance detracts from the one commandment-Love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.

Of course, we're all free to argue about whatever we want on these forums but this horse is dead-can we stop beating it now? Right or wrong is not even the biblical issue whether it's rapture doctrine/conspiracy or how many trumpeters or whatever. One thing the Bible makes quite clear: the Lord WILL return. Now when he returns or how or what He does when He gets here are all open to opinions and arguments but I don't want to be caught banging my brother over the head saying, "I'm right, you're wrong" when the Lord returns. "Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus".

Hi Toolman (others mentioned):

Tool >> In debates the evidence to refute would not come from same evidence you use to prove your point.

Please forgive, but people ‘interpret’ the same verses in many different ways and for different reasons. The ‘evidence’ is taken from God’s Word, but our different ‘interpretations’ are compared by the readers to determine who is “approved” (1Cor. 11:19). The right interpretation is the one saying exactly what God says without creating a single contradiction. Therefore, my duty to my hypothesis and the reader seeking ‘the truth’ on this topic is to highlight the similarities between ‘my testimony’ and the truth of Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15. THAT is my purpose in explaining things in the twin OP’s of this thread. Your job is to point out any seeming inconsistencies between my explanations and Scripture from ‘your’ interpretations. This distinction is what makes our ‘deliberations’ a true ‘debate’ on Scripture, rather than chat about our opinions.

Toolman >> Maybe you dont quite understand how a debate works, but it is to the person stating position to use whatever evidence they decide, not you.

Heh . . . I have been doing this since long before many of you were born. Debate is all about the presentation of ‘opposing views.’ The hypothesis of the thread starter is supported by the evidence from the body of the OP, until we find the opening question at the very bottom of the post. The best opening question divides the membership directly down the middle to identify the ‘advocates’ (whitewave, jtma508 in this case) and the ‘adversaries’ (Flyer, Marg, Sparky, Sun Matrix, Toolman, Jen, etc.) to my hypothesis, evidence and any conclusions. However, my thesis, supported arguments and conclusions represent the position of the “Thread Starter” and my advocates. My adversaries can provide explanations all day long on off-topic ‘evidence’ and never even address a single point from my OP. What do I care if you guys want to argue over the various books of the Bible and who wrote them; or if they should be canonized or not? Nygdan’s attempt to get you guys back on track (“Let’s stick to the issue of the rapture as a conspiracy . . .”) was indeed “right on.” My OP focuses on that precise point in the first three opening sentences, which if memory serves only Sparky has addressed properly; even if we disagree on his conclusions. The fact is that very few areas of Scripture even deal with this topic, which explains only a handful of quotes from a few passages in the OP. Our wise Moderators are trying to keep my adversaries from hijacking the thread to SomeWhereElseVille.

Toolman >> You want to be judge and jury, and that just doesnt work in a open debate.

I am more than happy for our readers to gather all the evidence from all the members debating this topic and draw conclusions for themselves. My case was laid out in the OP, before any of my adversaries began trying to pick it apart. Every member actively engaging me with opposing arguments in this debate has given up the right to also sit and judge. If anyone wishes to judge the participants in any debate, they should be counted among the third party ‘readers.’ WuXia wanted to judge my person without addressing the points of my Rapture interpretations in direct violation of COC guidelines with the approval and even rewards of my adversaries on this topic. Our wise Mods were forced to intervene to ensure every member here has the same opportunity to present his or her ideas on a level playing field. We have every right to relentlessly hammer upon every member’s ‘explanations,’ but not upon the ‘members’ themselves.

Toolman >> It may work in fundamentalist religions, which is where the close mindedness probably comes from for most fundies. They cannot see because they dont open their eyes.

Please forgive, but your post also does not address the “Rapture as a Conspiracy” topic. I am forced to write ‘off-topic’ comments to answer your post, or face the charge of ignoring your off-topic concerns. This is where you are found leaving the boundaries of what it means to have a meaningful debate on any topic. Tooman is not here to convince Terral of anything. This is like you being a Democrat and me being a Republican. Forty percent of the people will vote for their own party candidate. The Democratic candidate oftentimes moves farther to the right during his campaign to secure more of the ‘undecided’ moderate voters in the middle, while the Republican nominee moves to the left to win at least 11 percent of that undecided vote. I am not here to convince Toolman or my adversaries of anything either, but work diligently to present ‘the truth’ for the benefit of those yet undecided standing between us. If you and Sparky had explanations on this topic near my own, then we would make terrible debating ‘opponents’ indeed. Also, remember that one sows the seeds and another comes behind and waters, but God causes the growth. 1Cor. 3:6-7. I have witnessed to Board members who disagreed with my explanations, only to return a year later and find the same people teaching my views. We plant in hope of a great harvest and like all farmers must spend time in the waiting mode. This is all about God choosing ‘you’ to see His Hidden Wisdom (1Cor. 2:6-8), as He chose me decades ago.

Toolman >> Second, the foundation for "the Rapture" comes from 2-3 passages mostly from books suspect to begin with, or are taken out of context to fit into preconcieved theories of religious doctrine.

The sixty-six books of Scripture are inspired by God (2Tim. 3:16-17) and there are no contradictions, unless men create them with ‘their’ errant interpretations. The fact that you find some books ‘suspect’ speaks wonders about your ability to give accurate testimony in these debates.

Toolman >> So if the Bible is found to be an assembly of writings bound together by an Emperor trying to save an empire, it has Direct consequence to the conclusion you are attempting to draw; the foundation for your conclusion is the bible, and the bible is found corrupted, then your conclusion is corrupted.

We disagree. Our Creator has every capacity to deliver His Own mail. We are called to ‘rightly divide’ the word of truth for approval to God. 2Tim. 2:15.


[Continued]

Toolman >> third, If Christ really thought the Rapture was so goshdarned important, would there be entire sermons devoted specifically to the that event? more than just a word here, or there. He does devote entire sermons to helping the poor, hungry, needy, sick, jailed, etc. Maybe we should start there.

Please start a thread on that topic, if you can see a ‘conspiracy’ anywhere. Are you making a point or asking a question for advice? Christ never spoke a single word about Paul’s ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) to anyone in the Four Gospels. Maybe this is your “close minded” fundie characteristic working overtime in Tooman. My hypothesis from the very top is that:

Terral’s Opening Statements >> . . . The Rapture of our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) is prophesied by the Apostle Paul and ‘only’ by him in his thirteen Epistles to Gentiles. The common error of Bible Commentators [and Toolman] today is they mix the events of ‘our’ mystery Rapture with Christ’s “Olivet Discourse” detailing things taking place at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3+).”

Will someone among my adversaries in this debate please acknowledge they at least understand what I am proposing?? Christ is addressing Israel “ONLY” (Matt. 15:24) in the Four Gospels, while Paul’s gospel is sent to Gentiles “to make them jealous.” Romans 11:11. Christ cannot make prophesies in Matthew 24 (before Calvary) about a BRAND NEW (new creation = Gal. 6:15) mystery ‘church’ (Eph. 5:32) that comes into to existence AFTER the start of Acts 9! At the point of Matthew 24, everything connected to “the mystery” (Eph. 3:3) remained “Hidden IN God” (Eph. 3:9). Christ revealed the mystery aspects of our Rapture to Paul through the “visions and revelations of the Lord” (2Cor. 12:1) AFTER God raised Him from the dead and AFTER Paul was raised up in Acts 9.

Our Bible scholars of today are willing to simply mix the Lord’s revelations to Paul with His prophetic statements in Matthew 24, which serves to DEFILE BOTH. Rightly dividing the word of truth means separating everything “God” reveals part of “the mystery” from the “Prophetic” events He did give the OT Prophets (like Daniel = Matt. 24:15) to see. Common sense should tell you that anything part of the mystery cannot possibly be foretold by the prophets. Some among you can see the differences, and some quite frankly cannot. That is what makes this topic a ‘conspiracy.’ : 0 )

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

You guys know that the rapture wasn't originally in revelations right? It was inserted into it many years ago I saw it on national geographic. Sorry I don't remember the name of the individual who came up with the notion and the year it was officially inserted Maybe I try to find links later...

[edit on 8-10-2006 by Elijio]

Hi Elijio:

Elijio >> You guys know that the rapture wasn't originally in revelations right?

Nobody on my side of this debate is teaching any Rapture out of Revelation. Please read the Opening Post of 'this' thread before offering links. The premise is that only Paul is writing about ‘our’ mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) connected to when the 1000 Years (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) “Day of the Lord” (2Pet. 3:10, 1Thes. 5:1+2) is “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2). Paul is describing how the 1000 Years BEGINS, while Christ (Matthew 24) is describing how the SAME 1000 Year Period ENDS. I certainly wish my debating opponents on this thread would at least try to wrap their heads around those things, before succumbing to their knee jerk reaction to come out here and appear foolish.

Elijio >> It was inserted into it many years ago I saw it on national geographic.

Heh . . . How about if you crack open your Bible and give us ‘your’ interpretations on what Paul ‘is’ teaching right here:

“Behold, I tell you a mystery*; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1Corinthians 15:51-53.

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet [1Cor. 15:52] of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up [harpazo #726 = Rapture] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.

These represent the New American Standard Bible’s translation of the Original Greek that has not been changed since the Apostle Paul originally wrote them almost 2000 years ago. Please tell everyone here what Paul appears to be teaching the Corinthians and Thessalonians on this very important topic. What the National Geographic (Heh) thinks means nothing whatsoever in this debate.

Elijio >> Sorry I don't remember the name of the individual who came up with the notion and the year it was officially inserted Maybe I try to find links later...

I am willing to bet a dollar against that donut you are talking about Darby in 1830. Good grief . . . Does anyone actually read their Bible in any kind of accurate ‘context’ anymore?

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

Originally posted by FlyersFan
- It is NOT part of God's M.O. He has never pulled his saints out of the line of fire.
- It is NOT accepted by most of the 2 billion Christians on this planet.

God removed Enoch, and Elijah from the planet. He also removed Lot before judgement came. That time it was to another part of the planet.

So the precedent is in the Bible.

There are not 2 billion christians on the planet. There may be 2 billion who claim to identify with the christian faith, but they are not really saved.

[edit on 8-10-2006 by dbrandt]

Calm down man. Paul is talking about what will happen on the day the lord comes but the rapture isn't about that it's about some people being taking away before the judgement and/or final day, which is wrong. Sorry sometimes I don't explain myself fully I hope you understand me a little better now

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
In your OP you stated something along the lines of that there is no OT prophecy about a pretrib rapture?

There are more OT verses.
Isaiah 26:[20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
[21] For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Song of Solomon

chapter 2:10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

There's at the least another one in Isaiah and one in Psalms but I can't remember them right now.

Originally posted by marg6043
If you look at the different denomination of Churches everyone of them has an opinion of how God is guiding them to fulfill its mission on earth and each church denomination has its own book of revelations per interpretations on how the word of God is to be followed.

Matthew 24:[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

We are forewarned of false teachings, so that is why we are to be on guard and learn what the truth is.

Originally posted by St Udio
also note that this singular group (a great multitude who came from the end-time great tribulation) are caught up to God's throne....
because every person in that group 'died' "IN" Christ (Lamb) as the foremost requirement & secondarily because they overcame the 'Beast' system.
[[ 'died' is only implied ~ as the verse does not detail just How that great multitude came to be in God's temple & around His throne specifically]]

It does not say they died for their belief in Christ. It says they came "out of" great tribulation.

out /aʊt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[out] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adverb 1. away from, or not in, the normal or usual place, position, state, etc

of1  /ʌv, ɒv; unstressed əv or, especially before consonants, ə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhv, ov; unstressed uhv or, especially before consonants, uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–preposition 1. (used to indicate distance or direction from, separation, deprivation, etc.)

"Out of" could very clearly indicate a removal away or seperation from the great tribulation, yet this is not the first raptured group, there is one before them.

To above poster:
So if I say my father came "out of", hell you will take this to mean that he never entered hell but was spared from it? Maybe he came just came out of hell(he was in hell and then he came out of hell) The latter seems more sensible to me.

Hi Elijio, Dbrandt:

Elijio to Dbrandt >> Calm down man. Paul is talking about what will happen on the day the lord comes but the rapture isn't about that it's about some people being taking away before the judgement and/or final day, which is wrong.

Elijio appears to be hitting notes very near the truth of this Rapture topic, but then he contradicts himself in the same statement. The readers should realize that a person with limited knowledge on the Rapture topic might indeed take Elijio’s statement just one way, when in truth his words can be taken in a variety of ways. This is why those trying to debate this topic should always “quote >>” someone and errant points they are trying to rectify with the presentation of their own opposing views. Elijio has made the right connections to Paul talking about what will happen when the “day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) actually “COMES” (2Thes. 2:2). However, he then switches gears to jamb the transmission and tumble head over heels face down in the dirt by saying, “but the rapture isn’t about that – it’s about some people being taken away before the Judgment; and/or final day, which is wrong.” (paraphrased for clarity)

This is where Elijio is just as WRONG as he can be. The Judgment of the Living (Matt. 25:31-33) and the dead (Rev. 20:11-15) takes place at the very END OF THE AGE (Matt. 24:3+30-31), which is 1000 Years AFTER the “Day of the Lord” COMES (2Thes. 2:2) with our Rapture (1Thes. 4:16+17).



Please follow along and I will show you the difference: Note how your Bible is divided into three witnesses of Spirit (OT = golden yellow on the left) symbolizing the "Holy of Holies," Blood (Paul’s Epistles in red = between the Two Veils) symbolizing the "Holy Place" of the Temple and Water (light blue) depicting the Court outside the Temple. The early rains bride (John 3:29) was ‘cut off’ (Rev. 20:4) 2000 years ago, but Elijah returns to restore all things (Matt. 17:10+11) for the ‘late rains’ (James 5:7) kingdom ‘bride.’

You and I are living within the ‘red’ “Dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) approaching the “Rapture (Body)” connected directly to the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) being “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2 = see bottom where Red and Blue meet). God is revealing the “Mystery” (Eph. 3:3) aspects of Scripture through the Pauline Epistles and His personal mail written ‘to’ us (1Cor. 14:37+38) for today, but Hebrews through Revelation is written “to” the Kingdom Disciples actually living on this earth through the 1000 Years Day of the Lord (shaded in light blue).

Jesus Christ is standing way back in the micro (red) section between “Christ’s Baptism” and “Calvary” in Matthew 24, while addressing His ‘early rains’ disciples about what will take place for those living in Elijah’s Restored Kingdom very near the ‘end of the age.’ Christ knows how that 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” WILL END, which is what His Olivet Discourse is all about. However, Christ could NOT see the red/blue transition line of the diagram that shows WHEN the 1000 Years Day of the Lord WILL BEGIN. Christ is telling Peter and the Twelve about events that take place way over on the right hand side of the blue (Day of the Lord) section, where you see the dark blue “Seven Years (Tribulation).” Daniel connects the “abomination of desolation” (Dan. 11:31) directly to the “end of the age” (Dan. 12:11-13), which Christ makes reference to in the middle (Matt. 24:15) of His Olivet Discourse. That means the number of days in Daniel’s prophecy (Dan 12:11-13) are to be carried over to the ‘dark blue’ section of the diagram, which is fulfilled some 1000 Years AFTER our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) that STARTS the 1000 Years Period.



Paul’s Epistles are the ‘red’ part of the diagram, while the Kingdom Epistles of Peter, John, James, etc. are fulfilled in the blue section. The mistake of the modern day scholars is they blend the red and blue sections together, which mixes the START of the “Day of the Lord” events with the END of the “Day of the Lord” events being fulfilled some 1000 Years LATER.

Elijio >> Sorry sometimes I don't explain myself fully. I hope you understand me a little better now.

If you truly wish to be understood, then “quote >>” someone and name that person atop your post. Then offer your opposing views to his errant statements with Scripture to back up your argument. Your posts appear more like chat room messages than anything related to a ‘debate’ of this topic at all.

Your position is represented among the ‘inventions of the Denominations’ (see OP thesis statement), which my OP presentation seeks to discredit and prove very much DEAD WRONG. Any interpretation that connects our ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) to the “Great Tribulation” (Matt. 24:21) is DEAD WRONG, because that takes place very near the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+21) which is fulfilled AFTER the 1000 Years is complete. Paul is describing how we are ‘caught up’ AND the devil is chained (Rev. 20:2 = voice of Archangel = 1Thes. 4:16 with trumpet heard "behind" John in Rev. 1:10) for the same 1000 Years falling BETWEEN the start (Paul in 1Thes. 4:17) and end (Christ in Matt. 24) of the “Day of the Lord.”

GL seeing the difference,

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral


[edit on 9-10-2006 by Terral]

Originally posted by Elijio
Maybe he came just came out of hell(he was in hell and then he came out of hell)

I agree that it could mean what you say also. My point is it does have another meaning.

Originally posted by Terral
Elijio to Dbrandt >> Calm down man. Paul is talking about what will happen on the day the lord comes but the rapture isn't about that it's about some people being taking away before the judgement and/or final day, which is wrong.

I could be wrong but I think Elijio is talking to you, not me.

Hi Dbrandt:

Dbrandt >> I could be wrong but I think Elijio is talking to you, not me.

Everyone knows I am addressing you in this reply, because your name appears atop the post and I took the two seconds it takes to “quote you >>” and remove all doubt. Mr. Elijio and other members failing to follow this simple pattern are ‘chatting’ into the air and not taking these deliberations very seriously at all. Any ATS member willing to stand against anything presented in the Opening Post must have the courage and conviction to place my name atop the reply, “quote >>” my errant statements to give their arguments context and make their case with support from Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15.

The third party readers and judges in this debate are far smarter and require much more convincing that some of us are willing to accept. Sending “no name” posts without quoting anyone and using NO Scripture to prop up mere opinion is throwing time and effort after foolishness. My well defended and fortified fortress of the twin OP’s is built upon the solid bedrock of God’s Living Word. If the Mods wish to allow you guys to chit chat and pass opinions back and forth on this thread about everything else under the sun, that has nothing whatsoever to do with my well guarded thesis destined to withstand whatever future ATS members might bring.

My Rapture case, which places the 'timing' to when the "day of the Lord" (1Thes. 5:1+2) is 'at hand' (2Thes. 2:2) has already been presented and defended. If nobody has anything substantial to offer against my presentation, then this thread is ready for the archives. The future ATS unbiased third party judge searching this topic will be moved to render a decision LONG before he finds this dribble on Page 12.

Just click on Page 1 to see what the typical member will read in order to gather sufficient facts to realize Paul is talking about the START (2Thes. 2:2) of the 1000 Years "Day of the Lord," while Christ (Matt. 24) is describing the END of the same 1000 years Period. My debating opponents should have been attacking the substance of my arguments laid out in the OP, instead of reducing themselves to attacking Terral. : 0 )

GL in the debate that was over by Page 3,

Terral

Originally posted by Terral
then this thread is ready for the archives.

This is MORE than ready for dismissal. It should have been dumped back on page 1. It has been proven that there is NO RAPTURE. Any discussion of a 'date' of a non-rapture is a red herring and a waste of time. Actually, it's WORSE than a waste of time. Rapture doesn't exist and yet those who push it just promote strife and judgementalism amongst Christians ... and about a subject that DOES NOT MATTER at all. Rapture isn't real and even if it were it would have NOTHING to do with salvation. NOTHING.

instead of reducing themselves to attacking Terral.

Pronouns Terral. Pronouns are your friends. Use them.

Flyer:

This Board could use an option to “Ignore” certain members on ‘certain’ threads. I took you off ignore, because perhaps you can add something to another debate, only to come here and find the same pitiful “NO RAPTURE” whining and moaning. Thank God we do not have a herd of atheists going from thread to thread saying, “NO GOD!”. How irritating.

Flyer >> This is MORE than ready for dismissal. It should have been dumped back on page 1. It has been proven that there is NO RAPTURE.

Really? Okay, Flyer, here is your chance to back that up and a chance for everyone here to see you are acting like a fool. All you have to do is provide us with your expert commentary on what Paul ‘is’ teaching in these verses. GL:

Paul >> “Behold, I tell you a mystery*; we will not all sleep, but we will ALL be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable MUST put on the imperishable, and this mortal MUST put on immortality.” 1Corinthians 15:51-53.

“But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will NOT grieve as do the rest [like Flyer] who have NO HOPE. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus [dead raised imperishable = 1Cor. 15:52]. For this we say to you by the “WORD OF THE LORD*” [take careful note here], that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will NOT precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet [1Cor. 15:52] of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN will be CAUGHT UP* [harpazo #726 = Rapture] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:13-17.

Okay, Mr. Doubting Thomas, since “NO RAPTURE” is taught in your Bible anywhere, please tell everyone here how ‘you’ interpret Paul’s teachings above. Good Luck! If Flyer runs and hides his head in the sand, then he is acting foolishly and everyone here deserves an apology. There are only so many ways for believers today to interpret these things, which has nothing to do with Darby, LeHaye or any other Bible ‘commentator.’

Flyer >> Any discussion of a 'date' of a non-rapture is a red herring and a waste of time. Actually, it's WORSE than a waste of time. Rapture doesn't exist and yet those who push it just promote strife and judgementalism amongst Christians.

Heh . . . No, Flyer. Paul’s teaching on our “Rapture*” (Harpazo #726) is just one part of our Christian FAITH, which SOME of us have in our possession (2Tim. 2:18) and some obviously do NOT. Paul warns these Thessalonians about people just like you, saying,

“Finally, brethren, pray for us that the WORD OF THE LORD* [from above verses] will spread rapidly and be glorified, just as it did ALSO WITH YOU; and that we will be rescued from perverse AND evil men; for NOT ALL [Flyer] have faith. But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one. We have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will continue to do what WE command.” 2Thessalonians 3:1-4.

Every ATS member here has the right and privilege to quote, teach AND follow the commands of Paul (= Lord’s Commandment = 1Cor. 14:37+38) concerning his “Rapture” teaching from the “word of the Lord,” OR to follow in the footsteps of the likes of our resident “Doubting Thomas” (Flyer) who has NO FAITH concerning these things WHATSOEVER. Paul’s teachings create no strife and judgment among true Christians already “IN” Christ Jesus, but Flyer’s “NO RAPTURE” ideology directly opposes what ‘is’ written in the Bibles of everyone here. This is like the atheist saying, “Hey, you Christians are causing all the problems with all of this “God” business.” If our debating is over a nonexistent topic (like Flyer says), then why even bother to say anything? Mr. Flyer here not only refuses to enter into Paul’s Rapture teachings given by the “word of the Lord,” he also desires to stand in the way of anyone else trying to enter like a modern day Pharisee!

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you DO NOT enter in yourselves, NOR do you allow those who are entering to go in.” Matthew 23:13.

Flyer >> .. and about a subject that DOES NOT MATTER at all. Rapture isn't real and even if it were it would have NOTHING to do with salvation. NOTHING.

Do you really believe our God is a simpleton and the “word of the Lord” ONLY has application to the topics of Salvation and Justification? Paul gave these Thessalonians the good news about our Rapture and the resurrection of the dead (1Thes. 4:13-17) to then say:

“Therefore comfort one another with THESE WORDS.” 1Thessalonians 4:18.

I am sure our ATS members and their readers will be comforted by Flyer’s expert commentary on what Paul ‘is’ teaching by the ‘word of the Lord’ from 1Cor. 15 and 1Thes. 4, IF he decides to pull his head from the sand. Or, will he continue his current “attacking Terral” campaign?

Terral Original >> instead of reducing themselves to attacking Terral.

Flyer >> Pronouns Terral. Pronouns are your friends. Use them.

Please confirm for everyone here who is speaking in this verse:

" . . . Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. This is eternal life, that they may know You, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” John 17:1b-3.

Who is speaking? That’s right, verse 1 begins, “JESUS spoke these things; and lifting up HIS EYES to heaven, HE said . . .”.

[Continued]