Torture worse than Saddam's

Reports emerging from Iraq now say that torture is out of hand, With militants, governments and terrorists disregarding human life and humane treatment of prisoners. Experts say it is worse now than when Saddam Hussein was in power.



This doesnt come as a surprise in the least, With Bush trying to pass his torture bill through congress, this comes as no shock that the government(s) are involved torturing prisoners at detention centers, this would follow with Bush's urge to pass this bill to protect himself and the torturers from being held and charged with war crimes.

For someone who is trying to spread freedom and democracy it seems like all that is being spread is more terror. This is blatant disregard for human rights, human life and international laws. This coming from people who over threw Saddam Hussein to stop his horrible ways, only to surpass the horror on to futher extremes and worse levels of terror.

[edit on 21-9-2006 by UM_Gazz]

For someone who is trying to spread freedom and democracy it seems like all that is being spread is more terror. This is blatant disregard for human rights, human life and international laws. This coming from people who over threw Saddam Hussein to stop his horrible ways, only to surpass the horror on to futher extremes and worse levels of terror.

Exactly right! Terrorists and militants torture innocent citizens, and it's Bush's fault! The idea never even occurred to the terrorists prior to the US going into Iraq.

And I doubt it's worse now than under Saddam. How much worse can it be than having your tongue pulled out?

Now, more prevalent, maybe. But worse? How is that possible?

Oh, I forgot. They can always be made to wear underwear on their head.

Well let's see.. Bodies have been found dumped with wounds from power drills, all the way through the bone.. being electricuted..sleep deprivation, which can be fatal of course only after it sends you nuts.. Hmm, Being strapped to a wooden board and drowned.. Still dont know how it could be any worse? beaten night and day, blind folded the whole time.. causing permanent damage.. And all this is happening to civillians.. And its only going to get worse.. There is no bounds when it comes to hurting someone and making them suffer..

[edit on 21-9-2006 by Ox]

jsobecky said:

And I doubt it's worse now than under Saddam. How much worse can it be than having your tongue pulled out?

Now, more prevalent, maybe. But worse? How is that possible?

Oh, I forgot. They can always be made to wear underwear on their head.

Congratulations...that post is officially within the top five stupidest posts I've ever read.

Well, I guess it could be worse.

According to UN reports, Iraqis had very high civilian casualties in the months of July and August.

The UN said civilian deaths in Iraq reached an unprecedented level in the last two months, as local Iraqi forces took control of a southern province from withdrawing Italian troops on Thursday, Reuters news agency reported.

More than 6,599 Iraqi civilians had been killed in violent attacks in July and August, higher than the death toll reported in the previous two months, according to a report by the UN Assistance Mission in Iraq.

Link

Of course, the source for these numbers is the UN, and the news source is Al jazeera, therefore the information cannot be trusted.

Iraq, a better place today!

Iran, even better tomorrow!

So who do you think is doing the killing? With more than 60 bodies found around baghdad containing various wounds from torture. Do you think the CIA is involved in this? The American military? rendering and killing these people to keep the game afoot so to speak.. When I say that I mean.. Give Bush what he wants in passing his torture bill and .. giving his constituents a better political standing for the elections and keeping the troops in Iraq? Answers give me answers

we should remember that humans are born peer mimics.
if you had time, you could look into the way that things like self-abuse(cutting the arms, usually) will SPREAD once it becomes common knowledge that one person is doing it.

from another angle, ....lemmings don't really all run off a cliff together to commit mass suicide. it is only humans that act like 'disney' lemmings.

from wikipedia White Wilderness popularized, using staged footage, the myth that during population booms Norway lemmings become suicidal and leap en masse off cliffs into the sea. For this reason, the term "lemming" is often used in slang to denote those who mindlessly follow the crowd, even if destruction is the result.

and, so it is with ANY cultural meme.

if more people could "get lemming" on the idea that human survival is a function of kindness, trust, and cooperation, we could really do great things as a species.

Originally posted by Valhall

jsobecky said:

And I doubt it's worse now than under Saddam. How much worse can it be than having your tongue pulled out?

Now, more prevalent, maybe. But worse? How is that possible?

Oh, I forgot. They can always be made to wear underwear on their head.

Congratulations...that post is officially within the top five stupidest posts I've ever read.

It may be worse now, but I really can't beleive that, before (when Saddam was in charge) the government did not have to answer to the people and could get away with anything they wanted. Hopefully the new government will not put up with this.

Of course I can see alot of payback might be happening now, but I hope the new government will not put up with this kind of thing and stop it. You have to remember how long these people have been terrorized by Saddam and their own government. Over there it was clan against clan and Saddam's clan terrorized almost everybody that wasn't in theirs.

That and along with the insurgents torturing and killing just to try to scare the Iraqi's into not co-operating with their new government.

I do believe that the Iraqi people are better off now than when they were under the rule of Saddam.

Hold on a second, I read the report, and nowhere does it say "experts now say that is is worse than at the time of Saddam"...

the title of the article is "U.N. expert: Iraq torture might be worse.

One expert says it might be worse. Lets see what else says in there.

"The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it has been in the times of Saddam Hussein."

So, there are people saying that it is worse than at the time of Saddam. Ok, so who exactly are these people saying this?

lets see what else does it say.

You have terrorist groups, you have the military, you have police, you have these militias. There are so many people who are actually abducted, seriously tortured and finally killed," Nowak told reporters at the U.N.'s European headquarters.

"It's not just torture by the government. There are much more brutal methods of torture you'll find by private militias," he said.

A report by the U.N. Assistance Mission in Iraq's Human Rights office cited worrying evidence of torture, unlawful detentions, growth of sectarian militias and death squads, and a rise in "honor killings" of women.

Ok, so the more brutal methods are being used by private militias. It could be insurgents trying to take control of the area, and it appears that it is insurgents doing most of the brutal torture, the military doesn't do "honor killings" nor do they do "death squads"....

Anyways, during Saddam's reign people's hands were cut off, their tongues were cut off, and other brutal methods were used. I doubt the coalition is using any of those methods, but if the Iraqi military is using them then there should be some changes and some people going to jail.

Anyways, i also don't believe this article simply because Saddam's regime wasn't all that good, and it is kind of hard to surpass some of the thigns his regime did, as i remember there was a research done on how many people Saddam killed in Bahgdad alone and it was around 60,000 people, if i remember correctly. His sons were known to kill their entire soccer team if they lost, and kill the boyfriend/husband of any woman they wanted for themselves among some other things they did.

I don't buy this article, it is exagerated.

I see people that are so willing, and they want to believe anything and everything bad being said about Iraq just to bash and blame the coalition, for things which for the most part are being done by militants/insurgents/terrorists, that it is really mind-boggling.

[edit on 22-9-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Hold on a second, I read the report, and nowhere does it say "experts now say that is is worse than at the time of Saddam"...

the title of the article is "U.N. expert: Iraq torture might be worse.

One expert says it might be worse. Lets see what else says in there.

So you mean now torture is the same that was under Saddam?

For you that's a good thing?

[edit on 22-9-2006 by yanchek]

Amazing some of these responses. The very same people attempt to give the illusion that we are there to free the Iraqi people and to make their lives better. I guess since its not as bad as Saddam Husseins torture and since its GW Bush administering it, its A-OK and its part of the freedom process to go through. Will these very same people be condoning torture upon American citizens in the near future.If this is supposed to be our version of bringing the backward Muslim countries freedom and democracy I can imagine what they would love to do to us here in the USA when they have changed the laws of this country to their advantage.

We really need to get these people and their supporters out of government before they totally demolish this country, our way of life and our long-standing good international reputation. They are magnets for terrorism and corruption.

I read an article about this yesterday, not sure if it's the same one or not.
I also read an article awhile back that torture was rampant since the US troops left. I'm not willing to go off the deep end and say all this torture is being done by the US, or endorse by them....I will lay the responsibility of ending it on their laps though, since hey, they were the nimwits that got this ball rolling!!

is it worse than it was in saddams time....I'd say yes. at least the people knew what to do, and what not to do to avoid saddam's wrath. now, it seems, all things are pretty much up in the air...the people have no control, no means to avoid torture or death, bombs fall whereever they fall, and they neighbor that you might have been forced to get alone with for years is now pretty much free to do whatever he likes, and so are you. I'd say it's worse. how long did afghanistan and yugoslavia spend with their internal conflicts as the various groups and sects killed each other off in their quest for dominance after the USSR pulled out of them? this is how we've managed to keep the peace between all these ethnically diverse people after we redrew the borders more to our liking.....a strong dictator for them to fear and hate worse. sometimes, freedom isn't worth the price!! or it should at least be delivered a little more slowly to the people, with some heavy instruction as to what their responsibilities in the process are, I don't know. but it seems wherever those strong ruthless dictators that we established back then are removed, the country laspes into a long dark period of internal wars as they all fight to fill the vacuum of power.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Ok, so the more brutal methods are being used by private militias. It could be insurgents trying to take control of the area, and it appears that it is insurgents doing most of the brutal torture, the military doesn't do "honor killings" nor do they do "death squads"....

Is that so?

Ever hear of Shia Death Squads?

Iraq: Death Squads And Diplomacy

Countless atrocities, too, have been perpetrated by Sunni gangs and by terrorists associated with Abu Musab Al Zarqawi. But the killings by the Shiite militias are far more chilling because they have an entirely different quality: They are carried out by gunmen tied to the U.S.-supported regime in Baghdad. They don’t draw criticism from U.S. officials, and most American media reports continue to portray the Shiites as victims and the Sunnis as aggressors.

No?

I guess not, since the Shia are not considered as Terrorists, since they are in bed with the US Army, so whatever they do, will not be crisizied by the US officials or US propaganda agents like yourself.

Want more?

CIA-Trained Iraqi Death Squads Interrogated U.S. Detainees

A group of Iraqi paramilitaries trained by the Central Intelligence Agency to aid US-led invasion forces in 2003 later acted as secret interrogators in US-run prisons set up after the fall of Baghdad, the Washington Post reports.

Now this is interesting - CIA trained Death Squads? I guss mister Negroponte just can not get out of his own Skin, since we all know what kind of Massacres he was responsible for in South America, Nicaragua especially. You think this is connected to the news headlines, we are talking about in this thread?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Anyways, during Saddam's reign people's hands were cut off, their tongues were cut off, and other brutal methods were used. I doubt the coalition is using any of those methods, but if the Iraqi military is using them then there should be some changes and some people going to jail.

So how do you know that? Were you in the Morgue and saw the bodies that come in on daily basis in Iraq today? It sounds like you are a Doctor in Iraq, and you have seen all the horrors of Saddam and the Torture the people of Iraq are going through now? And there is another thingy: when Saddam did that to his own people, dear mister Rumsfeld shook hands with him and sold him even more deadly chemical weapons, so he could gas the Kurdish people; just as long as he keeps fighting the War against the EVIL Iran for the United States, right?

How CARING!

I don't buy this article, it is exagerated.

I don't buy your posts - they are always soooooooo extremly pro-war, pro-bushy, pro-conservative, pro-rightwing, that it is frightening.

But oh well, somebody has to do it!

I see people that are so willing, and they want to believe anything and everything bad being said about Iraq just to bash and blame the coalition, for things which for the most part are being done by militants/insurgents/terrorists, that it is really

No, we just READ THE NEWS:

Sunnis Accuse Iraqi Military of Kidnappings and Slayings

As the American military pushes the largely Shiite Iraqi security services into a larger role in combating the insurgency, evidence has begun to mount suggesting that the Iraqi forces are carrying out executions in predominantly Sunni neighborhoods.

Hundreds of accounts of killings and abductions have emerged in recent weeks, most of them brought forward by Sunni civilians, who claim that their relatives have been taken away by Iraqi men in uniform without warrant or explanation.

Some Sunni men have been found dead in ditches and fields, with bullet holes in their temples, acid burns on their skin, and holes in their bodies apparently made by electric drills. Many have simply vanished.

So is that Bad Enough Torture for ya?

What amazes me is where are all of you (Posters on here) that always ALWAYS cry for more links, proof, research and investigations anytime something positive is posted about the war?

Your so eager to jump on the band wagon of some nut from the AP that obviously has an axe to grind and like lemmings fall right into step.

Muaddib and Jsobecky,

The only two posts on here that make ANY sense at all and the only ones that are ALWAYS in keeping with their usual posts.

I heard the same thing during Vietnam and it seems the ones that where there are now here to bring failure to the United States again and make everyone happy.

Semper

Originally posted by Valhall

jsobecky said:

And I doubt it's worse now than under Saddam. How much worse can it be than having your tongue pulled out?

Now, more prevalent, maybe. But worse? How is that possible?

Oh, I forgot. They can always be made to wear underwear on their head.

Congratulations...that post is officially within the top five stupidest posts I've ever read.

Right back at you, Val. Thanks for contributiong an equally intelligent reply to the thread. Did you never hear of sarcasm?

I would like to know why Bush's name is brought up in the first place? This has nothing to do with the US. When Sodom was in power he used power drills, plastic shredders, electricity, dogs (that ate people, not barked at them), and just about any other horrible thing you can imagine. The Sunnis were the politically dominant group at the time. Now the Shiites are in the driver's seat and there are reprisals. The torture is no worse, there are just new people in the driver's seat.

All this says is that there is a strong argument for the barbaric nature of certain areas of the world. In fact, if it weren't for the US, this would be even more widespread.

This UN report was prepared by Manfred Nowak, Special Rapporteur on torture and cruelty for the UN, who has never been to Iraq and is awaiting invitation by the Iraqi government to conduct a fact finding mission as requested in June 2006.

Nowak’s preliminary information as provided was derived from interviews of persons completely outside Iraq.

In July the UN published a report stating nearly 100 Iraqis a day were being killed and tortured as a result of sectarian violence...not by the coalition forces.

Who is providing the source funding for these secterian militias? Hmmmm...


mg

Ah Souljah again...

Sorry buddy but information like the exagerations you keep posting are no proof, much less when the information backing those statements comes from "classified documents".... I wonder how a reporter gets his/her hands on "classified government documents"....

From one of your links. I read some of your links and decided to find out from where this information is coming from..

Two days before, a secret CIA-sponsored group of Iraqi paramilitaries, working with Army interrogators, had beaten Mowhoush nearly senseless, using fists, a club and a rubber hose, according to classified documents.

www.washingtonpost.com...


Do you know what "classified documents mean" Souljah?.....

Obviously the reporter wanted to try to give more credit to that story, but by trying to do that he/she dug the grave of his/her report.

BTW, why is it that "when such documents are mentioned" they are never shown?... If the reporter has those "classified documents" and he wrote about them, he would be in prison right now....so posting them wouldn't have made no difference since he/she supposedly and according to his/her claims gave classified information....

Nice try souljah, but of course we all know how much you love the United States in general huh?....

Anyways, back to "this post".... i still stand by my statements. The information is exagerated, and anyone that has a mind to read on their own, instead of just following the party line will see it.

[edit on 22-9-2006 by Muaddib]

I think the point that people are missing that torture is torture.. Its wrong, it's illegal, immoral and just plain wrong..
It wouldnt surprise me that it's worse than Saddam, Saddam is a barbarian simple.. the CIA are EXPERTS.. they would use new methods.. probably invent new methods.. and think of the worst possible ways to make these people suffer... for no reason other than to make them suffer.. These people who are being detained have NOT been proven to be terrorists.. Most of them.. if not all of them are civillians... and they are being made to suffer just to cause more terrorism... PERIOD!..

Originally posted by Ox
I think the point that people are missing that torture is torture.. Its wrong, it's illegal, immoral and just plain wrong..

Actually, the point is that this is being exagerated and is being used, with some people trying to lie to Americans and the world btw, just because of some political agenda. There are no experts claiming that it is worse now, there is one man who alledgedly is an expert, do we even know who it is?, who says "it might" be worse, not that it is.

Then you try to bunch together what is clearly stated in the article is in great part being caused by Islamic extremist militias. Yes, the article also alledges that some of the torture is being done by government forces, nothing is said about the CIA, but that the worse of the torture is actually being done by those Islamic extremist militias.

As for those people who were interviewed, i also wonder how this man interviewed these people if he has never been to Iraq, we don't know what kind of questions were asked, and whether or not they are referring to the attacks being done by Islamic extremists.

Again, what i see is an exageration, and in some cases as the link which I read from Souljah is an outright lie, to persuade Americans, and the whole world to follow an agenda which has nothing to do with the truth.

Originally posted by Ox
It wouldnt surprise me that it's worse than Saddam, Saddam is a barbarian simple.. the CIA are EXPERTS..

Nothing is said in the article about the CIA, and Saddam's regime had been using torture techniques which are kind of hard to surpass for decades. Show me evidence where it can be clearly demonstrated that "CIA agents" or any U.S./coalition interrogators are choping fingers off, cuting tongues etc, from prisoners.

Originally posted by Ox
they would use new methods.. probably invent new methods.. and think of the worst possible ways to make these people suffer... for no reason other than to make them suffer..

Allegations from you which are based on nothing more than claims.

Originally posted by Ox
These people who are being detained have NOT been proven to be terrorists.. Most of them.. if not all of them are civillians... and they are being made to suffer just to cause more terrorism... PERIOD!..

Again, more claims from you. Claims are not facts.

[edit on 22-9-2006 by Muaddib]