Is the Pope right for speaking up about Islam as no one else has...

His words of wisdom were and I see the president and judges put their hand on the Bible plently of times. Must have been about what jesus said to get them to do that.

Also this link
www.jesus-is-lord.com...

Can sound a bit harsh but this site but its one of many.

Time to go for now I maybe back to this post I am not sure.

Don't forget its about the Pope not Me.

[edit on 15-9-2006 by The time lord]

I think if this news headline proves anything, it is that Muslims are just as capable of misunderstanding a speech, and not paying attention to the entire thing, as any other religion on Earth. As has already been pointed out, the Pope was quoting someone else, and his words were taken about as far out of context as they possibly could be.

So, in point of fact, even the title of this thread is woefully misleading. The Pope wasn't speaking out against Islam, he was trying to open up religious dialogue, and then rabble-rousers on both sides of the line, the OP included, decided to take his words and make them dance an ugly little jig to piss people off.

Frankly, I'm more amused than anything else. It just goes to show that in today's world, regardless of who you are speaking to, a speech should never be longer than one snappy and inoffensive sound byte.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
All monotheistic religions have a history of violence. I am not downgrading any religion in particular, but they all have a history of violence.

[edit on 15-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Very true, only one though seems to carry that through to the modern day.......

Sorry, but that's like posting a link to
Satan-is-lord.com, and trusting it to have an unbiased view of Jesus.

But you are right about this not being about you. Let's get back on topic. I think this is an underhanded way or the RCC trying to get people riled upa and angry, while being able to backstep and look like the good guys.

If I could brew and distill the message of Muhammad and the message of Jesus the Christ, it would be thus:

Jesus: Worry about your own salvation, but preach the message to others.

Muhammad: Go out and convert the infidel, either through their own willingness or by your sword.


There.....

Islam says no such thing. You people make me sick. This is the same type of reasoning that has led to way too many deaths.

Originally posted by Pyros
Personally, I'm a little sick and tired of all this Muslim sensitivity.

I would ask muslims: Are your religious beliefs so flimsy that they cannot bear even the mildest criticism? Can there be no objective analysis of the history of the Holy Prophet, or Islam itself, without censoring or omitting the harsh record of violence and death? Can you not even tolerate satire and humor, if it pokes fun at your history and beliefs? All other world religions put up with it, and they seem to be doing OK.....

Why is it that it is blasphemous to criticize Islam, or The Prophet? Why is it then in almost every other religion, if a person leaves that religion for another they are called a "convert". Yet is Islam on who turns away from The Prophet is an apostate, and the sentence for apostasy (per Sharia law) is death? Why are there so many offenses that can result in a charge of apostasy (such as mistreating the Koran, or creating a graven image of Allah or the Prophet), yet these offenses can have nothing to do with actually believing in Islam?

Why is it that your belief system is designed so that anyone who acts or speaks against your religion is only worthy of death? Well, to me the obvious answer is that this policy is an effective tool against those who would choose to leave Islam. Coercion is the unspoken cornerstone here, folks.

Please spare me the "religion of peace and tolerance" shinola. A cursory examination of the Quran and your history shows this to be untrue. It may be fashionable to wax poetically of the olden days of the Golden Age of Islam, when wise caliphs rules the civilized world in an evenhanded manner. But those days are as long gone, and the world has changed. Comparing Islam today to the Golden Age is a relevant as comparing today's Catholics to the Spanish Inquisition of old.

The great tragedy of Islam is that while most major religions seem to be progressing as man becomes more enlightened and wise, the adherents of Islam at large, in the grip of poverty and ignorance, seem to be in the midst of a de-evolution. Truely, it will only be after we have addresses those factors that Islam will be able to grow.

Of course, with the posting of this opinion, I must now prepare for the inevitable fatwah and jihad that will be declared against me, the godless infidel that I am......

Spot on

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Islam says no such thing. You people make me sick. This is the same type of reasoning that has led to way too many deaths.

taken from www.faithfreedom.org

brackets indicate Quran chapters.

Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), slay them (9:5), fight with them (8:65 ), strive against them with great endeavor (25:52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (66:9) and strike off their heads; then after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” for ransom (47:4).

This is how the pagans are to be treated. As for the Christians and the Jews, the order is to subdue them and impose on them a penalty tax, after humiliating them (9:29) and if they resist, kill them.

The Quran is alien to freedom of belief and recognizes no other religion but Islam (3:85). It condemns those who do not believe to hellfire (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), orders the Muslims to fight them until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193), slay or crucify or cut the hands and the feet of the unbelievers and to expel them from the land with disgrace.

It stresses that the disbelievers shall have a great punishment in the world hereafter (5:34) and figuratively depicts a horrendous chastisement for them stating that they will go to hell to drink boiling water (14:17), that they will be engulfed in smoke and flames like the wall and the roof of a tent and if they implore relief they will be granted water like melting brass that will scald their faces, (18:29) and that "garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods” (22:19).

It also prohibits Muslims to associate with their own brothers and fathers if they are non-believers (9:23), (3:28).

[edit on 15-9-2006 by rustiswordz]

Originally posted by rustiswordz
Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123),

BS:

2:190-And fight in the way of Allåh
against those who fight against you
but be not aggressive. Surely Allåh
loves not the aggressors. 2:191 And kill them wherever you
find them,a and drive them out from
where they drove you out, and persecutionc
is worse than slaughter.
And fight not with them at the Sacred
Mosque until they fight with you in it; slay
them. Such is the recompense of the
disbelievers.
192 But if they desist, then surely
Allåh is Forgiving, Merciful.a
193 And fight them until there is no
persecution, and religion is only for
Allåh.a But if they desist, then there
should be no hostility except against
the oppressors.

If you don't understand that, let me explain it to you. If others are coming to attack, and oppress you and your people fight back. If they stop, then you stop. Allah is forgiving, and they will be forgiven.

Have you read the Quran, or just what Christian fundamentalists say about the Quran?


[edit on 15-9-2006 by Rasobasi420]

I actually came a cross this...It was something that John Paul II tried to incorporate before he passed away. It would seem that all of this is just a distant memory now. Here is a link.

A Catholic And Islamic Alliance

"And fight not with them at the Sacred
Mosque until they fight with you in it; slay
them. Such is the recompense of the
disbelievers.
192 But if they desist, then surely
Allåh is Forgiving, Merciful.a
193 And fight them until there is no
persecution, and religion is only for
Allåh.a But if they desist, then there
should be no hostility except against
the oppressors."

so im a disbeliver, i am to be slayed then eh?

"religeon is only for allah"

so what of me an agnostic, and what of other faiths?

from: www.faithfreedom.org

"As for the women the book of Allah is emphatic that they are inferior to men and if they disobey their husbands the latter have the right to beat them (4:34). Their punishment for disobeying their husbands does not end there, because after they die they will go to hell (66:10). The Quran emphasizes the superiority of men by confirming that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their testimony is not admissible in the court of law unless it is accompanied with the testimony of a man (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Muhammad allowed the Muslim men to marry up to four wives (although he himself had a score of them) and gave them license to enjoy their "right-hand possessions" (women captured in wars), as many as they can capture or afford to buy (4:3), even if the woman is married before being captured (4:24)."

and i think this is worse than waging war. my sister/mother/wife/ladyfriends isnt inferior to me.

and as for this...

"Muhammad lived a less than holy life. His lust for sex, his affairs with his maids and slave girls, his pedophilic relationship at age 54 with Aisha, a 9-year-old child"

[edit on 15-9-2006 by rustiswordz]

Back to the original question, whether or not the Pope was right to say what he said, one privilage that all of us here on ATS enjoy is that of free speech, although he is a very infuetial figure in the world it might be considered fair to grant him the same right, however it dosn't mean that I am going to agree with him.

Yes the muslims, for the large part, hate the west and christianity. Their history books teach them to from a very young age. The havoc that the muslim extremists have caused in todays world is disgraceful, but what the christian crusaders did, IMO, is worse in alot of ways.
Emperor Manuel II Paleologos lived a long time ago, and had no opportunity to be as enriched by world knowledge as most of us in the western world can experience sitting in front of the television. IMO, the Pope should know better than to use such a biased quote in todays climate of political and religous unrest.

That said, almost anything anyone in the public eye today says about the muslim world, even a newspaper cartoonist, seems to "arouse the anger of the whole Islamic world".

I think the only thing that we can do is teach our children to have religious tolerance, and hopefully, eventually, it will result in a more peacefull world.

throughout history all 3 of these religions, judaism, islam, christanity have done dispicable things in the name of god
the jews wiped out entire cities, read the old testament of the bible for the accounts
the crusades pretty much sums it up for the christians
the radical muslims are out attacking now

the difference is that :
the majority of jews at the time supported what they did
the majority of christians at the time supported what they did
however, the majority of muslims are against violence

the radicals you see on tv are the minority

to compare, islam has mostly fought to survive
hitler believed what he was doing was from god
the KKK believed what they were doing was from god
the jews who destroied cities such as jericho with the help of god believed what they were doing was from god

now suddenly a few radical muslims suddenly right all the wrongs of the past?
the pope is a joke, both then and now.

I may be way off on this but it seems like a lot of wars are over religion in one way or another. Too bad God just doesn't stop by for a visit with all of us and just says here I am now stop fighting so much over me. Just a thought...

Originally posted by wondernut
throughout history all 3 of these religions, judaism, islam, christanity have done dispicable things in the name of god
the jews wiped out entire cities, read the old testament of the bible for the accounts
the crusades pretty much sums it up for the christians
the radical muslims are out attacking now

the difference is that :
the majority of jews at the time supported what they did
the majority of christians at the time supported what they did
however, the majority of muslims are against violence

the radicals you see on tv are the minority

to compare, islam has mostly fought to survive
hitler believed what he was doing was from god
the KKK believed what they were doing was from god
the jews who destroied cities such as jericho with the help of god believed what they were doing was from god

now suddenly a few radical muslims suddenly right all the wrongs of the past?
the pope is a joke, both then and now.

Thats incorrect on many levels.
Number one the crusades were a response to Muslim conquest of Christian lands. They were not acts of agression but acts of defense.
Second while the majority of muslims in America do not support violence, the majority of muslims worldwide do.
Second Islam has not only fought to survive, throughout its entire history it has spread through conquest. Islam is at its core, diametrically opposed to christianity. It does not, as christianity does, allow humans to exercise free will, in fact the quran says only the djinns and ifrits were given free will. It does not as christianity does, outlaw all violence, it in fact justifies violence for a number of reasons. It does not, as christianity does, spring from Judaism, Muhgammad stole and incorporated some christian and jewish theological points and stories in order to copy the existing popular religons of the time. It does not, as christianity does, lay a theological foundation for the seperation of church and state, rather it claims that any attempt to do so is blasphemous. It does not, as christianity does, accord tolerance to other religons, rather it explicitly states that those of other religons are either evil, or mentally disturbed. Muslim nations, unlike christian or formerly christian nation, do not allow those of other faiths to build churches in muslim lands, it is in fact strictly prohibited.
Islam and christianity are polar opposites.

One has to look at how Mohammad went about converting people to Islam.
Then compare it to the extreame laws of the Islamic nations.
Then look at the actions of terrorists.
There is not a coincidence in what is the main behavioural influence.

The crusaders were actually doing a a good thing as europeans were being killed into Islam at the time. Maybe they went too far yes but would say it has made us free from forced Islamic conversion that was threating Europe at the time. Do you think they came to Europe with a democratic view too before the crusades got together?

But so what the pope spoke of something which has at least some truth in it and the Muslims no doubt like the cartoons will overact. When they say they hate the West or ban or persecute Christains in their nations does the world complain and cause riotes?

Why do they cause such a fuss? There must be some brainwashing going on as they all react from nation to nation from minority to indivuals the same way and with violence and violent views?

There must be a phycological process that irates Muslims so much over free speach.

Good I hope the Pope says more instead of running scared of an oppressing religion that shudders at the least opposing views due to the brainwashed system that in prison them in the first place. Problem is they never hear the other side of the story let alone freedom of opinion.

TYAA Idiot, the Crusades were fought over disputed holy land. It wasn't Christian land except in the sense that it was held by force, through the slaughter of the muslims who lived there. And Saladin even showed the Christians mercy after reclaiming it by allowing them to live there peacefully, until the Christians came back and started killing again.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
TYAA Idiot, the Crusades were fought over disputed holy land. It wasn't Christian land except in the sense that it was held by force, through the slaughter of the muslims who lived there. And Saladin even showed the Christians mercy after reclaiming it by allowing them to live there peacefully, until the Christians came back and started killing again.

Next time, try not to get your history lessons from a hollywood movie.
At the time of the first crusades muslims had already invaded a number of christian lands not the least of which were spain, Egypt, Palestine, and Syria.
Today we know these as muslim nations, but at the time prior to the first crusade each was a majority christian nation. Yes Egypt, and Syria were both majority christian nations.
What happened?
The Muslims, invaded, enacted thier dhimmi laws, and forced people to either become second class citizens with rights less than those of Blacks in the american south prior to the civil rights campaign, or become muslim.
Spain had already been conquered by the moors, and the crusades were a reaction to that.

Originally posted by Pyros
Personally, I'm a little sick and tired of all this Muslim sensitivity.

Here, here. I didn't requote your post to save space. Yet, they can burn bodies of US soliders, hang them from bridges and then take turns climbing the bridge so they can slap the charred remains with their shoe. Religions of "peace" do this all the time, don't they?

I'm sick of everytime one person says something the slightest bit slanted against Islam, all we see on the news are these HUGE rallies where guns are thrust into the air and hundreds of posters displaying the cleric of the day are paraded down the street.

There must be Kinko's gallore over there, becuase it seems like there's an endless supply of rally posters.

[edit on 15-9-2006 by Freenrgy2]