Young girl gang raped - Flees traumatised - Police shoot her DEAD!

Just read Rkr3's link. It seems she had the knife pointed at herself. To add to that, she was trying to escape, not attack. Furthermore, the cops had been asked to use less lethal force. And finally, the big one, is it so hard to move away or even run away? Or are the cops afraid to lose their already long lost reputation? They wanted to shoot her. Or else this wouldn't have happened.

Actually, updates on this story say the police were in a triangular position around the girl, this is the story they used to justify some of the bullets striking her in the back.

Ironically, their story only makes them look worse, since if they were in this position at least one of them had ample time to taze, club, or otherwise detain the girl.

And frankly, 20+ shots fired? That's not an "oh man gonna die" reaction, that's just a clip emptied without consideration.

If she had been holding a gun, this would be a different story. While it would be tragic, I would be less apt to blame the officers because you can't outmanuever bullets. But she had only a knife, and the police, by their own statements, had position on her. There's no excuse for this.

So if a person a few feet from you, obviously crazed and derranged, jumps at you with a knife, you're going to ask her to stop, and maybe fire a shot into her shoulder, heck, maybe you can fire a shot to knock the knife right outta her hands right?
And you also expect your fellow officers to not shoot, when you're about to get killed?

THats what a taser is for. She was 100 pounds and 5'4', that isnt exactly something i couldnt handle. I would have not shot her. If I did I would not shoot and then reload a clip, then continue to shoot, I would shoot a few times.

[edit on 20-9-2006 by R3KR]

[edit on 20-9-2006 by R3KR]

Unfortunately cops in America can do anything they want and get away with it 9 times out of 10. Those incompetent pigs will most likley not be punished in any form.

Shocking.

Unjustified in opening fire and willfully negligent in their application of force. 15/23 shots cannot be justified - ever.

It'll be interesting what investigation is carried out and the shots fired per cop / her position after the first, second, third shot etc - presumably after 2/3 hits she was dying / clearly no threat.

I don't want to seem like an asshole here... really. But you can't seriously make comments like you are on this subject without being there.

It is surley a tragic story. And my thoughts and prayers go out to the family. I cannot honestley say what it is like to be raped and I am sure it is one of the worst things someone can go through.

Regardless of that, anyone with a knife waving it at the police is plain and simply asking to be shot. It is common sense that you do not carry a weapon any where near the cops. Hell, I wouldn't even carry a toy gun near the police these days.

The reports also say that she was lunging at the officers. How do you know they didn't try non-lethal force before shooting her? It's happened before... when people get tear-gassed at protests people put up a stink only to find out days later that the officers used every other method possible first.

Also those of you implying that the officers would have had to reload their weapons... wrong.

Cops and Soldiers are not blood thirsty, trigger happy maniacs who just look for someone to shoot. These men dedicate their lives to protecting people. They do not shoot people to get off over it. Sometimes that means themselves. If someone is lunging at knife at you, you do whatever you have to do to protect your life and the life of your fellow officers.

No one here can honestley tell me that all the cops at the scene agreed to go and find someone to shoot.

This woman threatened the lives of the officers and by the sounds of it, threatened the lives of anyone else who would have been on the streets that night. Hell she slashed her own mother for gods sake.

It is sad that she was put in the mind frame that she was put in by the rapists. It is a tragedy. But the cops cannot be blamed for this.

Originally posted by doctorfungi
I don't want to seem like an asshole here... really. But you can't seriously make comments like you are on this subject without being there.

It is surley a tragic story. And my thoughts and prayers go out to the family. I cannot honestley say what it is like to be raped and I am sure it is one of the worst things someone can go through.

Regardless of that, anyone with a knife waving it at the police is plain and simply asking to be shot. It is common sense that you do not carry a weapon any where near the cops. Hell, I wouldn't even carry a toy gun near the police these days.

The reports also say that she was lunging at the officers. How do you know they didn't try non-lethal force before shooting her? It's happened before... when people get tear-gassed at protests people put up a stink only to find out days later that the officers used every other method possible first.

Also those of you implying that the officers would have had to reload their weapons... wrong.

Cops and Soldiers are not blood thirsty, trigger happy maniacs who just look for someone to shoot. These men dedicate their lives to protecting people. They do not shoot people to get off over it. Sometimes that means themselves. If someone is lunging at knife at you, you do whatever you have to do to protect your life and the life of your fellow officers.

No one here can honestley tell me that all the cops at the scene agreed to go and find someone to shoot.

This woman threatened the lives of the officers and by the sounds of it, threatened the lives of anyone else who would have been on the streets that night. Hell she slashed her own mother for gods sake.

It is sad that she was put in the mind frame that she was put in by the rapists. It is a tragedy. But the cops cannot be blamed for this.

That is an astonising response - she was shot at least 15 times not once or twice - it looks very trigger-happy to me.

3 cops with 5/6 shot revolvers so at best 3 cops didn't fire 3 of their available rounds!! - what is your definition of reasonable force??

what happened to serving and protecting?

Originally posted by porschedrifter
23 bullets would take down the strongest man, one bullet would take down a little girl.

If anything that shows that they feared that their life and the life of their comrades were in danger. If they were just 'pigs out to kill', they'd put one bullet in her head and crack open some beers.

If these officers were really in that much of danger, a simple shot to the leg, foot or even into the AIR would have scared her straight.

Well when you're a cop you can test out that theory.

A small pocket knife would inflict a small wound

a folding pocket knife.

There is nothing there about it being a small swiss army knife of something like that.
These are some folding pocket knives:

Whatever happened to warning shots?

The police are not required to fire warning shots when someone is lunging at them with a knife.

Police officers should not be able to fire unless fired upon.

Thats absurd.

This is a horrible freak accident

A person who lunges at cops with knives getting shot is not a freak accident. Its the officer killing someone who's trying to kill them.

and something really needs to be done about this situation,

It can easily be avoided by not running into the street with a knife and trying to stab a cop.

russian soldier
So she wouldn't have done that (if she even did attack the police) if she was in her own mind!

So?

So goddamnit, wtf do the cops have sticks and tazers for?

Please demonstrate that these cops had tazers. Then please explain why, if she had died after being gangraped and hit with a tazer, this wouldn't be a headline? As far as batons, please explain why a cop cracking the skull of some girl wouldn't also be seen as an abuse of power?

Who knows what kinds of people are in the police force.

Minimally, people who aren't interested in getting stabbed by drug-crazed knifeweilding kids on the street.

In my area, the worst problem is cops constantly harrassing and even arresting teens.

Then consider yourself lucky that there is no crime in your area, and that the 'worst' problem is getting 'hasseled' by 'the man'.

Or am I supposed to just stand there and risk injury or death just to satisfy a law?

And yet, the cop is supposed to get stabbed while trying to, ninja like, shoot the knife out of someone's hand eh?

It seems she had the knife pointed at herself

According to some peole she had it 'pointed upwards torwards herself' and to others she was lunging at the cops.

To add to that, she was trying to escape, not attack.

Please demonstrate this. ANd then please demonstrate that a cop is going to be able to tell the difference in a split second. THen please explain wtf she was doing with a knife on the street, after having stabbed her mother, in the first place, and then please explain why she didn't 'escape' by putting the knife down and reporting a rape???

rk3r
THats what a taser is for.

Tazers are a non-lethal way to stop a person that is being violent, not a way to stop a person that is lunging to you with a knife, or about to fire a gun. They do not stop everyone instantly, like in some cartoon, and, I may have missed it, but where does it say that these officers had a tazer in their holster?

If I did I would not shoot and then reload a clip, then continue to shoot, I would shoot a few times.

And three or four people shooting 'a few times' results in how many bullets, precisely?

strangerous
3 cops with 5/6 shot revolvers

Cops don't carry revolvers, this ain't the old west. Here is an article on cops in the LAPD, the same state as this incident:

www.policeone.com...
The Board of Police Commissioners today gave Los Angeles police officers the option to arm themselves with lighter weight, easier-to-shoot Glock pistols.

"Quite frankly, it''s just a much better weapon" than the standard-issue Beretta 9 mm[...]About 70 percent of law enforcement agencies nationwide use Glocks, including the FBI and the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration.

And here is an article about standard rules about shooting a person lunging at you with an knife:

www.policeone.com...
www.policeone.com...

the 21-Foot Rule, when accurately stated, says that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with an edged weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet. Thus, when dealing with an edged-weapon wielder at anything less than 21 feet you need to have your gun out and ready to shoot before he starts rushing you or else you risk being set upon and injured or killed before you can draw your sidearm and effectively defeat the attack.

more...

www.policeone.com...
Dr. Fabrice Czarnecki at Franklin Square Hospital Center in Baltimore, MD, added that the lethality of edged weapon wounds should never be underestimated. "In addition to the carotid artery, other dangerous targets are femoral arteries, brachial arteries (upper arms), and subclavian arteries in the chest. Chest and abdomen stab wounds can be deadly, but require deeper penetration compared to the limbs. A stab wound to the chest can injure the heart, aortic artery and several other large blood vessels (all deadly injuries)," Dr. Czamecki stated.

"A stab wound to the abdomen can kill by injuring a major artery or an organ (like the spleen) that will bleed. Multiple stabs to the abdomen is a tecihnique favored by some gangs, and it carries a high mortality risk. Besides blood loss, knife wounds can cause multiple kinds of other injuries. A neck injury could damage the airway, and kill by asphyxiation. A chest wound or wound to the rib cage could collapse a lung, which would set about a cascading effect leading to death," Dr. Czamecki said.

Still, . . . .still, come on, these itty-bitty, light-weight, brainless policemen all having
to shoot this big bad little girl? Sounds stupid when it's put like that, doesn't it?

If their first concern is to protect their own lives, maybe they should choose
another occupation. I don't think they gave very much thought to try and save
this girl, or help her.

They are supposed to "serve" the public.

I hope they all come to realize that shooting this girl that many times is EXCESSIVE
FORCE!!!!

What a bunch of mamby-pamby wimps.

I think Nygdan pretty much summed it up.

Originally posted by Russian soldier
She wasn't a lunatic. It wasn't her fault she was drugged. She just got raped goddamnit!.

She was acting like a lunatic. It wasn't her fault that she got drugged, and yeah, she got rapped.

I feel for the girl and her mother. But the point is, she had a knife (means), she had already demonstrated violent behavior (intent) and she was close enougn to go for a stab (opurtunity), which she probably did. If she she try to harm the cops...then that, imo, is reason enough to use deadly force. An LEO does not have the luxary of running away from a violent person with a knife, that would really suck if she harmed someone else.

Hell, where is the proof where she even launged at the cops?!??!?!

There is more proof that says she was violent and probably tried to take a stab at a cop than there is that say she didnt try to do anything.

-she was already violent with a knife towards her own mother
-she was "not all there" because she was drugged.
-she had a knife...why else does someone carry a knife in hand with the blade open?

Huh, even if she did, would she have even been able to scratch a group of combat ready cops?

You'll be surprised what a person under the influence of drugs (even if it was not her fault) can do, especially when you mix that with adrenaline and emotional trauma.

I don't think that all the rounds fired came from "one clip" or one officer...I;m willing to bet that all the cops fired a few rounds in a matter 1-2 seconds.

Anyways, if someone comes at me with a knife, girl or not, drugged or not, I'm not gonna fire a few rounds to make sure that person is down and not able to get back up. I bet most would do the same.

On another note, so many people cry that cops should not carry tazers. I bet you wish they had a tazer in this case.


I'm not saying the cops made all the right moves. But let's wait till some more info comes out (if it does) and then see who's at fault. Yeah, the cops should have tried to stop her with other means, but we were not there, we don't know how close she got or what all went on.


Sporty

[edit on 20/9/2006 by SportyMB]

My mistake - they still had loads of rounds left after they shot her 15 times.

No worries there then.

I just cannot believe all of those here in this thread that have stood up for the officers and said that a little tiny 5 foot girl with a small knife needs to be shot again and again and again......


Have you ever been in a situation where you had to use your brain, wits, and most importantly training to defuse a situation?? I have - many times. Many times facing traumatised teens in a psych unit - many times with broken vases / bottles / chairs ect ect ect..

If i followed your lead i should of battered them to death and claimed self defence.... yes I may of got away with it, but it would stain my soul forever to have a death of a traumatised person on my hands....More so if she had just been gang raped...

Protect and serve is it not?? Hell, it seems like these police had no taser, no night stick, no batons, no nothing bar their guns...


Sick and I hope they rot in hell for what they did to that poor shattered soul trapped in a raped and brutalised body.

The police clearly served the public interest. She ran out of her house, crazed on drugs, after stabbing her mom, with a knife. The cops could've ran away at the sight of a knife, and then she might've stabbed someone else. When a drug crazed lunatic is running around the streets with a knife, I want the cops to shoot them down. As far as I am concerned, thats their job, stopping knife weilding maniacs on the street.

The simple fact is that this girl would be alive if she didn't run into the street with a knife, OR, when the police showed up, instead of lunging at them or 'trying to run away', she put the knife down. Pretty damned simple. If she was so out of her mind from drugs that she didn't know what to do, then she was far too dangerous to allow to jump at police with the knife.

First of all, thanks for posting the story. Secondly, we don't know all the facts. For instance, who called the fuzz and why? That being said I will comment based on the represented facts.

Listen, if 3 cops can't disarm a 100 lb. teenage girl waving a short blade without firing dozens of rounds into her body there is something wrong with how we train our cops. These guys are either wussies or simply trigger happy.

Remember Amadou Diallo?

The officers opened fire on Diallo and during the burst Officer McMellon fell down the steps, appearing to be shot. The four officers fired forty-one shots, hitting Diallo nineteen times. Investigation found no weapons on Diallo's body; the item he had pulled out of his jacket was not a gun, but a wallet. McMellon had not been shot, but had merely tripped while backing down the stairs.

en.wikipedia.org...(shooting_victim)

Those cops got off and he wasn't even armed. I'm telling you, I sue cops and the public simply does not want to believe that they are ever the bad guys. The evidence has to be simply overwhelming, as it is here, and then you also have to have favorable witnesses. These guys can make an old disabled woman out to be a terrorist who needs to get wacked. Believe it.


[edited vulgarity -nygdan]


[edit on 22-9-2006 by Nygdan]

Publuc Execution,
I support our police force as far as my knowledge will reach, they do an excellent job, I trust they are responsibly and accurately trained.
Failure is inevitable.
And I do believe they receive much less appreciation than they deserve.
The vast majority consider them to be opponents.

My concern here is the harsh, non-compassionate approach to the "elimination" of a "threat".
As in the days when we burned people, in public, innocents were openly prosecuted, displayed.
This is not a matter of of belief or religion as it was perceived, but of bringing forth the primal forces in man. Survive on behalf of the less strong.
Are we civilized? As we wish to believe?
Is this nothing more than entertainment for those whom oppose to such behavior?

I see no difference between the police officer and the person whom applauds him.
They both are victims of fear and lust for power.
They are both guilty of ignorance.
Enough Said.

Good thread, give me some more examples.
WIS

NB. Let's just humor ourselves with "real" reality TV :bnghd:

Nygdan- quote: Police officers should not be able to fire unless fired upon.

Thats absurd.

Sorry for going off topic but I thought it was absurd that we had to follow the same rule in Iraq. I mean, that's nuts.

From the sound of this, alot of information is missing, mostly whether she was drugged or not.

Also, police who feel deadly force is required, and I see the reason they felt the need, they would fire a volley to insure the subject was disabled.

They probably could of dealt with the situation in a non-lethal manner, but they would of risked her running off and doing who knows. The police also would rather disable a subject than wait until an officer in down to react.

100 or 300lbs. all persons should be considered effective at defending and attacking, especially with a weapon of any sort.

Why the police simply did not wait is curious. But they're course of action is justified if you judge it only by what they saw.

Okay, some of you defend the police as if they can do no wrong.
Maybe you should open your eyes wider! Maybe you can use your common sense!

They get called to the residence because she is out of control.
Not because she needs killing, but because she's out of control. Some bad things
have happened to her and she's not handling the situation very well. SHE NEEDS
HELP, NOT KILLING!!! But lo and behold, these PROFESSIONALS can't handle the
situation either. They come in and instead of even thinking about helping this girl
they worry about their own little wamby-pamby asses. Suddenly they can't think
of anything non-lethal, can they? You mean to tell me that three of them can't
come up with a plan to subdue this girl without killing her? I bet she scared them
so bad they went in their pants, the lightweights!

And then, how many times did they shoot her, 15 or so? How many times would they shoot a 300-lb. man or circus fat-lady? 75? 120?

Never heard of tasers or bean-bag rounds? Guess not.

These cops offend the very idea of "protect and serve".

Maybe they need better training. Maybe they need to be fired. But, . .they don't
need support from anyone who's afraid to use their common sense. When is
excessive force, excessive? When it only happens to your life? Or your friend's?
Or your mother's? Or your......you, you , you . . . .

This is just my opinion, but they seemed to be really determined to kill that girl. Why? Could be any reason. Maybe she had a really sharp knife, or maybe she recognised her rapist, an important person perhaps? God, there is so much we don't know...Such an atrocity.