Mundane conspiracies in the Holy Bible

I like you train of thoughts! (Wow... alot was posted since the last time I was on...)

I'll go into more detail later... I'm on the Job Service computers... and the receptionist is looking at me funny...

Sooth,

Quote-"3. Did Jesus actually get crucified? If so, he died to wash away the sins of mankind, right? So then, why does the Catholic church still demand that children be baptised? Are not children innocent (according to Jesus)? Since he died on the cross, why are children still born with the origional sin?"

The Catholic Church doesn't demand this. The Church won't baptise children if their parents will not raise them Catholic (i.e. raise them in the faith). The Church won't make a mockery of his Sacrament. The child could make his or her mind to be baptised at the age of reason. God only knows what happens to unbaptised babies but we should trust in God's mercy.

quote-"4. Why did Lucifer allow Jesus to be crucified? Yes, I worded that correctly. If Lucifer was given reign over the earth, and he knew that if Christ were to be crucified the sins would be washed away, why was it permitted? Why not have an... accident? *This ties in with question 3*"

God can do anything He wants, Lucifer could not stop God's plan. Come on now. Do you think that God would let Lucifer meddle in his plan?

[Edited on 11-5-2003 by Cearbhall]

Originally posted by jagdflieger


Certain concepts are presented in the Bible and well supported as not to be a matter of interpretation (such as the concept of Grace). If you do not wish to believe what is written in the Bible than do so. However, I would be amiss to state that a certain idea is based on a Biblical presentation when it is clearly not. If you do not wish to use the whole Bible, then you should not use any of the Bible to support your beliefs.

So true my fellow believer...Amen. So many people are misled...or misinformed more or less...about what the Bible in whole is trying to relay. You can take any scripture from the Bible and interpret it in many ways. Seems to me that there are more "Bible bashers" out there than there are "Bible thumpers". The "bashers" read a couple of scriptures and become outraged and reject the underlying meaning and don't continue to read the whole book...whereas the "thumpers" read and yearn for more of the story and teachings of the Bible. The "bashers" take it as a conspiracy because they think they are being brainwashed into believing what is being told. "Thumpers" can't put the Bible down...use it as a guide to life...and life after death for that matter. An everyday solution to everday problems in the Bible.

So, what you're saying is that God told Lucifer to tempt Jesus?

I am not wishing to sound like a non-believer or anything like that... as a matter of fact, I am very religious; it's just that I have used, over time, many different religious texts and beliefs to find... myself (?) As it stands, I am a Kabalist (by nature, not by practice). I just have an undying need to KNOW.

There are somethings in the Bible that I just can't swallow... and knowing that there are books and parts taken out, it makes me wonder why, and what those parts contain. Thus, my questions.

I know Judas didn't have time to write a book (or dictate one), but I still wonder if he knew what he was doing was part of God's plan. As to him being puzzled at the last supper... no, I don't think he was (just as a child would deny something both the kid and parent knew he did). I do honestly believe that Judas was... contacted, either by God or by Jesus... that, to me, would explain why Judas kissed Christ at the supper, as a sign of... apology.

With the relation of God and Lucifer... I've said it before on an other thread, and I'll say it again because it makes sense... I see God and Lucifer as being equals, and lovers (remember, Kabalist). There is a duel relationship here... God needs Lucifer, only if it is to have an over-seer of Hell, and Lucifer needs God so those in Hell can know torment (without having hope, how can you be... tortured?)

"So, what you're saying is that God told Lucifer to tempt Jesus?"

God didn't tell Lucifer anything. I believe Lucifer did it on his on violition. I think Lucifer, being the fool that he is, thought that he could stop Jesus from going through with it. See that is Lucifer's downfall...his pride. He still thinks he can beat God.

Two good sites of Judas are:

www.execulink.com...
www.geocities.com...

Check them out knowledge finder!

But the puzzling question remains, or rather, it adds to the unknown...

Jesus DID know of the betrayal. And God wanted it to happen (no matter what, we all agree on that).

But, to have Lucifer being accused of persuading Judas to the act? I don't think so... it goes against Lucifer tempting Christ to NOT be crucified; why would Lucifer tempt Jesus, and then decide to persuade someone to do just that? Can you understand what I'm saying?

Personally, I feel Judas was acting under divine influence. But now, after reading those links, no matter what could be said, God (made Lucifer) made Judas turn in Christ. Because, as earlier posted, Lucifer cannot do anything without God's permission...

Which adds that Lucifer still takes orders from God (which, then again, takes away free will, doesn't it?). Or to put it in a different way, If God controls both the good and evil in the world (as hinted by those links and previous discussion), *crap... phone rang... lost train of thought... will return to finish, tough*

*All in all, though, this is a pretty good discussion! Even though alot of us may not see eye-to-eye on the subject matter, it is good none the less!*

Sooth,
Here you go for another twist:

Lucifer wanted to kill Jesus so he got Judas to turn Jesus in. Well maybe then Lucifer had another thought maybe along the lines "I could stop Jesus from going through with it and then that would be the end to salvation etc. and the souls would be mine."

So Lucifer tried to stop Jesus as he thought of it as a better plan. I'm thinking maybe Lucifer forgot, for a short time, Christ's divinity and went after His human side.

Yes, in essence, God pulled Lucifer's strings to help bring salvation to the world. I don't think Lucifer helped willingly though, he was pawn.

I appreciate your thoughts on this, and I can tell you have put a lot of sincere pondering into this subject. But there are certain areas I get to in your thought process where you made jumps in logic due to assumptions, etc. See my comments below:

Originally posted by soothsayer
But the puzzling question remains, or rather, it adds to the unknown...

Jesus DID know of the betrayal. And God wanted it to happen (no matter what, we all agree on that).

COMMENT: Agreed.

But, to have Lucifer being accused of persuading Judas to the act? I don't think so... it goes against Lucifer tempting Christ to NOT be crucified; why would Lucifer tempt Jesus, and then decide to persuade someone to do just that? Can you understand what I'm saying?

COMMENT: The word persuade here leads the reader to believe that you are speaking of some great moral argument between Judas and Lucifer on the benefits/disadvantages of Christ's mission being completed and that Lucifer won the day. A slow read of all the dialogue taking place between Jesus and his disciples up to the point of his arrest...or even just the discussion that took place at the last supper, shows that the disciples were absolutely clueless as to the mission of Christ (i.e. the crucifixion and resurrection). They had accepted that Jesus was the meshiac, the messiah. So they were expecting that God's will for this man would be rulership over the Jews...not death on the cross. To imply Judas gave very much resistance against some great debate on the salvation of mankind is to hand over quite a bit more credit to him than he deserves. Judas turned Jesus in because Judas was greedy. Not necessarily for money, which very well could have played into, but for power.

Concerning any "tempting to not be crucified", I am very unclear as to what you are referring to here. The three temptations in the desert were nothing but trying to "get to" the very human side of Jesus. There was no direct temptation to not be crucified in any of these 3 temptations...but there was definitely a seed for future thoughts...at the right time. I think far too often there are those who want to put the blame for all evil back on Satan....it frees them of having to have a conscience when they do that. But that simply isn't the case. The greatest evil comes from mankind's ability to take one singular thought and run like a whipped dog with it. Satan is the 'GREAT DECEIVER'...in the 3 temptations of Christ we see how he operates. I do not believe for one moment that Satan thought Jesus would cave in to any of the 3 temptations, but what Satan hoped for was a kernel of doubt, a remembered thought at just the right moment. Possibly, that moment could've have been when hanging on the cross, impaled and bleeding out...I'm thinking the "why don't you use your authority and just get out of this mess" thought HAD to have crossed Jesus's mind...and that's what Satan's goal had been.

Personally, I feel Judas was acting under divine influence. But now, after reading those links, no matter what could be said, God (made Lucifer) made Judas turn in Christ. Because, as earlier posted, Lucifer cannot do anything without God's permission...

COMMENT: Not only can I not agree with these statements here, I feel pushed to speak against them. I get pretty tired of reading how God is malevolent and actively pushes us around, or brings some great calamity on us; maybe manipulates us to evil in order to bring about the greater good...blah blah blah. God did not "MAKE" Judas do anything.

It is so difficult for us to contemplate what we would be like if God were absolutely gone. There is no ability within us to truly conceive what the world would be like with all Godliness absent. We cannot conceive of this because we have nothing to relate to. We have always lived with God's mercy and grace around us, and His spirit of guidance within us...even if we choose to not believe in Him.

I believe that God protects us, via His loving grace and mercy, from the utter darkness and "lack of good" (no need to call it evil at this point because "lack of good" self-defines a bad situation) that utterly would envelope us and be present in us. I believe He does this on a personal level and on for mankind as whole. I also believe that He is currently gradually pulling His protective hands back and allowing what has been the dark threats to us that always existed to enter in more and more.

This is not God "making us" do anything. This is not God manipulating us. This is simply God pulling back His merciful protection and allowing US to do as we please, but in an environment where there is less of HIM guiding us, and more of base carnal selves deciding.

The same is true in the case of Judas. God did not whisper in Judas's left spiritual ear "go turn Jesus in". God did nothing more than pull back His protection, pull away His own guiding spirit and let a man completely face the evil thoughts, the deceptive thoughts, and the base urges that exist ALL THE TIME. Self-will run riot. SELF-WILL run riot.

Judas was left spiritually bare. And he did what every one of us would probably do if right this minute all the goodness and guidance that helps us stay at whatever level of kind, and thoughtful and consciencious were immediately withdrawn.

Which adds that Lucifer still takes orders from God (which, then again, takes away free will, doesn't it?).

This is a rather prepostorous statement in my mind. If you can find any supporting scripture to this, I will be glad to comment at that point. Until then, I don't think this warrants further comment.

haha this is great i love these replies, some of them are brilliant. The thing about Judas is interesting. I don't believe God or Satan Influenced Judas, Judas Influenced Judas he has a brain and a concience he made the choice for various reasons of which no one really knows, however since Adam and Eve mankind has never been happy unless they've had someone else to blame for their own actions, ex: THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT "grin" surrrrre he did

Another point i would like to go over again is during the Last Supper, Jesus told the 12 Apostles "one of which was Judas" that 'You 12 Shall Rule and Reign with me in Heaven'. So he sinned and he's in heaven even though he committed murder (conspired to) and suicide. hmm interesting isn't it?

As for the Devil, he was most likely created thousands of yrs ago so people had an excuse to blame someone/thing else other than themselves for Various reasons ... Convenience, to clear one's conscience by shifting the blame. It really is typical of human kind.

Originally posted by Sapphire


Another point i would like to go over again is during the Last Supper, Jesus told the 12 Apostles "one of which was Judas" that 'You 12 Shall Rule and Reign with me in Heaven'. So he sinned and he's in heaven even though he committed murder (conspired to) and suicide. hmm interesting isn't it?

Very Very Very (I'm using my full-lip V's here) important observation. Right here is where all theories of suicide being an unforgivable sin can be put aside. Hello, one more time we will review Christ's message:

Salvation is nonmeritorious. We cannot earn it, we cannot work our way out of it. It is gift from God based on a singular spiritual requirement to believe (accept it) or disbelieve (reject it).

Judas, upon REALIZING what he had done, could no longer bare the remorse. He was repentant, but unable to live with the remorse. Christ assured him that he would be given the opportunity for salvation when he states "the twelve of you".

Wow... the last three entries are great! Much to the shagrin of others, I do enjoy debates/ conversations such as these. I never try to persuade my ideas, but I always try to learn...

It is funny, though... of all the odd little things in the bible, that Judas should have the most discussion.

And, one last thing before I go for the night, Valhall, good points!

What about God, the great one. why did he put all these bad things on this holy planet, that he does not want us to do.

And you know what, everytime some one finds a loophole in your flawless book of the lord. You dont answer they're question, you just tell them whom that person was or flip the subject over to something else similar. or you tell them they are wrong, nobody knows any of this stuff happened for a fact.

for all anyone knows the book of the almighty lord could have been some author from clear back in the day. then some one after his time found it and started to live they're life by it.....

for example; what if 500 years from now, some some person, thing, what ever found a steven king book, and "BELIEVED" that it was the truth from the past and lived they're life by it.

so therefore saying no one knows for a fact that any of this stuff happened they have no physical evidence that any of these events occured on this planet earth.

And one other thing is that, the man who wrote the bible, the author of the bible. Rubbed a stone on his forehead to give him ideas for books he was writing.

It would take god himself to get off his high mighty ass, come to earth, and materialize something outta thin air for me to believe.

Thanks for reading my thoughts on this subject.




Sincerly, pork man.