I like you train of thoughts! (Wow... alot was posted since the last time I was on...)
I'll go into more detail later... I'm on the Job Service computers... and the receptionist is looking at me funny...
Originally posted by jagdflieger
Certain concepts are presented in the Bible and well supported as not to be a matter of interpretation (such as the concept of Grace). If you do not wish to believe what is written in the Bible than do so. However, I would be amiss to state that a certain idea is based on a Biblical presentation when it is clearly not. If you do not wish to use the whole Bible, then you should not use any of the Bible to support your beliefs.
Originally posted by soothsayer
But the puzzling question remains, or rather, it adds to the unknown...
Jesus DID know of the betrayal. And God wanted it to happen (no matter what, we all agree on that).
But, to have Lucifer being accused of persuading Judas to the act? I don't think so... it goes against Lucifer tempting Christ to NOT be crucified; why would Lucifer tempt Jesus, and then decide to persuade someone to do just that? Can you understand what I'm saying?
COMMENT: The word persuade here leads the reader to believe that you are speaking of some great moral argument between Judas and Lucifer on the benefits/disadvantages of Christ's mission being completed and that Lucifer won the day. A slow read of all the dialogue taking place between Jesus and his disciples up to the point of his arrest...or even just the discussion that took place at the last supper, shows that the disciples were absolutely clueless as to the mission of Christ (i.e. the crucifixion and resurrection). They had accepted that Jesus was the meshiac, the messiah. So they were expecting that God's will for this man would be rulership over the Jews...not death on the cross. To imply Judas gave very much resistance against some great debate on the salvation of mankind is to hand over quite a bit more credit to him than he deserves. Judas turned Jesus in because Judas was greedy. Not necessarily for money, which very well could have played into, but for power.
Concerning any "tempting to not be crucified", I am very unclear as to what you are referring to here. The three temptations in the desert were nothing but trying to "get to" the very human side of Jesus. There was no direct temptation to not be crucified in any of these 3 temptations...but there was definitely a seed for future thoughts...at the right time. I think far too often there are those who want to put the blame for all evil back on Satan....it frees them of having to have a conscience when they do that. But that simply isn't the case. The greatest evil comes from mankind's ability to take one singular thought and run like a whipped dog with it. Satan is the 'GREAT DECEIVER'...in the 3 temptations of Christ we see how he operates. I do not believe for one moment that Satan thought Jesus would cave in to any of the 3 temptations, but what Satan hoped for was a kernel of doubt, a remembered thought at just the right moment. Possibly, that moment could've have been when hanging on the cross, impaled and bleeding out...I'm thinking the "why don't you use your authority and just get out of this mess" thought HAD to have crossed Jesus's mind...and that's what Satan's goal had been.
Personally, I feel Judas was acting under divine influence. But now, after reading those links, no matter what could be said, God (made Lucifer) made Judas turn in Christ. Because, as earlier posted, Lucifer cannot do anything without God's permission...
COMMENT: Not only can I not agree with these statements here, I feel pushed to speak against them. I get pretty tired of reading how God is malevolent and actively pushes us around, or brings some great calamity on us; maybe manipulates us to evil in order to bring about the greater good...blah blah blah. God did not "MAKE" Judas do anything.
It is so difficult for us to contemplate what we would be like if God were absolutely gone. There is no ability within us to truly conceive what the world would be like with all Godliness absent. We cannot conceive of this because we have nothing to relate to. We have always lived with God's mercy and grace around us, and His spirit of guidance within us...even if we choose to not believe in Him.
I believe that God protects us, via His loving grace and mercy, from the utter darkness and "lack of good" (no need to call it evil at this point because "lack of good" self-defines a bad situation) that utterly would envelope us and be present in us. I believe He does this on a personal level and on for mankind as whole. I also believe that He is currently gradually pulling His protective hands back and allowing what has been the dark threats to us that always existed to enter in more and more.
This is not God "making us" do anything. This is not God manipulating us. This is simply God pulling back His merciful protection and allowing US to do as we please, but in an environment where there is less of HIM guiding us, and more of base carnal selves deciding.
The same is true in the case of Judas. God did not whisper in Judas's left spiritual ear "go turn Jesus in". God did nothing more than pull back His protection, pull away His own guiding spirit and let a man completely face the evil thoughts, the deceptive thoughts, and the base urges that exist ALL THE TIME. Self-will run riot. SELF-WILL run riot.
Judas was left spiritually bare. And he did what every one of us would probably do if right this minute all the goodness and guidance that helps us stay at whatever level of kind, and thoughtful and consciencious were immediately withdrawn.
Which adds that Lucifer still takes orders from God (which, then again, takes away free will, doesn't it?).
This is a rather prepostorous statement in my mind. If you can find any supporting scripture to this, I will be glad to comment at that point. Until then, I don't think this warrants further comment.
Originally posted by Sapphire
Another point i would like to go over again is during the Last Supper, Jesus told the 12 Apostles "one of which was Judas" that 'You 12 Shall Rule and Reign with me in Heaven'. So he sinned and he's in heaven even though he committed murder (conspired to) and suicide. hmm interesting isn't it?