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Of All The Liberties You Have Lost, Because Of The 911 Conspiracy. Which One Do You Miss The Most?

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posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 02:59 PM
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actually plenty of people have said specifics.. the problem is some never want to respond to posts that have specifics, because they have NONE. they only respond to those that do NOT have specifics. easy to pick apart that way.. while convienently ignoring any responses that they cannot counter with typical one liners.

But what do you expect when you come to a gun fight with no ammo.


question for the author.. why ask a question if you dont want to know the answer?




posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by Valhall
For both the Posse Comitatus violation and the arms infringement I point you to post-Katrina New Orleans. That's what I was referring to.


And might I also add that in the event of this happening again, the chief of police (mark my words) is more than willing to take the guns again. This was my sole motivation to actually buy a gun. Laying yourself at the mercy of the government during these times is equivocal to putting the gun to your head. Of course, then again, why don't those who think this is a joke come by and we'll take a walk down the street and start asking the National Guard with assault weapons exactly what they plan to do?



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by wondernut

go try to climb the statue of liberty

Have no intention to visit USA in the short term, anyways where is the SoL mentioned in the Constitution? And who operates it?


go try to bring gatoraid on a plane

Oh the evil Gub'mint! Wait, it's not the govt, these are the air transport companies. So I cannot bring gatorade on board. Big deal. Esp. in the context. So I guess say bus companies are also in on it as they don't allow smoking onboard. Seems you are misunderstanding the term "liberty" here. The operator of the transportation services, or of the shop, or owner of your house, clearly states the rules by which you are to behave to get his service. Say if a house owner tells you he doesn't want you to have wild parties at night as neighbors won't like it when he rents you a house, he isn't cutting your libertes. He just sets the rules. If you don't like it, get another living. If you don't like the irline sets these rules, you may try another one or you may try getting a train or a ship in case you go over the ocean. If a shop owner doesn't want you to get your dog along with you into the shop, is he evil gubmint cutting your liberties? Or do you define freedom as "anyone has to do as I want and doesn't have the right to object"?



go talk on your phone without being monitored

As I'm not interesting enough for the journalists or trade partners/enemies (don't have one), all I can fear is a warranted wiretap by the police or secret service allowed in a standard legal proces by the justice.


good luck, cause those are 3 of the fredoms you lost just in the last few months

First two aren't freedoms. Unless you don't allow the other subjects of transaction freedom to decide what they want to do with their properties/subjects of care.



securty comes at the cost of freedom by nature

Not neccessarily. Sometimes it comes just at the cost of better efficiency of given agencies within the same framework.



after being a computer tech for 5 years i can assure you, there is no such thing as security, only its illusion and the idiots who believe it will protect them

locks dont keep theves out, they keep honest men honest
all the laws in the world will not prevent people from killing each other

One may argue that "no security" is worse than "breakable security". So for example because the police isn't able to prevent most of crimes and isn't able even to catch some criminals, it is as good as if there was no police, am I getting you right? Since the firemen aren't able to put out all fires and to save all their victims, they're creating just an illusion? Since a firewall can be broken by a skilled hacker, it means it is totally worthless?




edit:
and no i'm not a bad computer tech either, i'm an honest one
the only method of creating flawless security is to not make anything that needs securing
since that's impossible and all man made systems are flawed there can be no such thing as security.
"where there's a will, there's a way"
anyone determined enough will get past all the security you set up to protect yourself
the only sure way to protect yourself is to kill yourself before they kill you first!

[edit on 12-8-2006 by wondernut]


Who's arguing that "where there's a will there's a way"? But this is true to an extent. If we're speaking of computer security, it's not an illusion. A firewall may not block a skilled and patient hacker who wants to get to you intentionally, but it may well stop the types attacking foreign data just for fun or not as skilled. Whereas if there was no security measure (as according to you any security measure is as good as no security measure at all), they'd get through. the same for terror threats or even in conventional military. Prior to WW2 it was thought that "bomber will always get through" and this was proven true, but also disproven on many occassions. Even AA fire only was enough to disrupt bomber flights and to cause crews to panic and not hit their targets. Efen few fighters usually managed to cause at least some damage. But, usually, some bombers got through and done a damage - does that mean air defenses were worthless? Nope. The same here - some attack may happen, but others may well be blocked.does it mean that when I'll manage say to stop four and one attack succeeds, that I am to disband the security as it's just an illusion or does that mean I'll say raise alertness of the guards so that next time only one of ten may succeed?
You know, real world is seldom digital with discrete levels, in this case 1 or 0. It tends to be analogue with a full spectrum of decimals between 1 and 0 but you'll seldom get clear 1 (ie 100% security) or clear 0. But do you think that say 50% is the same as 0%?



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 03:23 PM
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Vushta why do you think people keep saying that? Becuase they can't take there heads out of there butts to really see the truth. It's not quick, it will become slow and slow and slow until one day were all screwed out of our minds. Well happy with your goddamn negative beings and galactic federation posts. Deny ignorance? yeah ok, i suppose ignorance is our best friends now isn't it? I was the only one here that posted something government/corporate was actually doing. Because it seems like i'm the only few on here that get there heads out of the clouds and actually see what's going in america. There was no bombs in the buildings, there was no bombs on the planes, and there sure as heck wasn't any aliens involved in 9-11 either. We can all chalk up to human stupidity/incompanants. We hold so much in things that give nothing in return, how pitifull. People are pussies (sorry i have to use this) becuase when you ask them something, they never can answer. You know what i think? (sarcasm) The world is really controlled by giant laser shooting teddy bears. And aliens are just a prerequisite of us being forcefed peyote in our drinking water (end sarcasm).


I understand the concept....but it contains zero information. Seriously what is it that you think will happen?..everyone dressed in government issued grey cloths?..tatoos on everyones forehead designating station in life?..what? Honestly that 'slippery slope' bullsnot is more often than not just bullsheet. "If you smoke a joint..the next week you'll be on heroin".."If you have to register your firearm..next week they'll take them away".. Its bullshiet.

But Duhhs thread was ..what liberty do YOU miss the most? And true to form all the paranoids have nothing to offer as examples other than minor inconviences. Thats just nothing but real real whiney.

You talk about people getting their heads out of the clouds or denying ignorance..there are a bunch of crazy people who would just love to kill you. And your suggestions for dealing with the problem is ...what?

But the question remains..what exactly is it that you could do 5 years ago that you can't do now?



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 03:33 PM
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original quote by: Vushta
But Duhhs thread was ..what liberty do YOU miss the most? And true to form all the paranoids have nothing to offer as examples other than minor inconviences. Thats just nothing but real real whiney.


Did you guys just climb out of a hole in the ground? Im only asking this because unless thats where you have been living you would know that thanks to the Jose Padilla case you no longer have the Constitutional protections garaunteed to us all in Amendment VI of the Constitution of the US of A.


Article the eighth [Amendment VI]
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.


thanks to the Padilla case this is no longer applicable... care to retort on this one?

I DO have more.. so stop ignoring the real answers!!!!


[edit on 12-8-2006 by TONE23]



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by TONE23

Did you guys just climb out of a hole in the ground? Im only asking this because unless thats where you have been living you would know that thanks to the Jose Padilla case you no longer have the Constitutional protections garaunteed to us all in Amendment VI of the Constitution of the US of A.


Article the eighth [Amendment VI]
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.


thanks to the Padilla case this is no longer applicable... care to retort on this one?

I DO have more.. so stop ignoring the real answers!!!!


[edit on 12-8-2006 by TONE23]



Are you Jose Padilla?

What liberties do YOU miss the most was the question. You're ignoring the question and offering the example of one man. If you're going to bake a cake you have to break a few eggs.
The giant leap of logic you make in saying that 'thanks to the Pidilla case the VI is no longer applicable' is just hogwash.

When he was arrested at the airport he did have over $10,000. in cash on him and a cell phone and email addresses to al-qiada operatives on him...and he ( Abdullah al-Muhajir) is reported to have attended jihadi training camps.

Don't make the guy out to be some joe blow American citizen.



[edit on 12-8-2006 by Vushta]



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 04:43 PM
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NO VUSHTA.. it is YOU that are missing the point...

I miss the rights that the sixth amendment garauntees. And if you take the time to read the Patriot ACT which I have.. you would know that ANYONE that violates ANY law of the US can be deemed an enemy combatant... ANYONE.. you, me, ANYONE... US citizen or not... what part of THAT dont you get?

I no longer have those rights GARAUNTEED end of point!.

Doesnt matter if I am Jose Padilla.. I AM an american citizen who no longer has the sixth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America to protect me from the govt. Whether I need it or not.

Your response was pathetic... Am I Jose Padilla?... typical.. if it isnt happening to you then it isnt happening and the right is still there...

but keep coming back with the same tired answers.. if its not happening to you...crap.. the part you are missing is this: The ability of this to happen to you is now applicable...get it yet?.. the Padilla case has set a precident... do you know what a precident is? Im sure you do.. so you know that now ANYONE CAN BE HELD without the SIXTH AMENDMENT rights.

Goodness grief am I speaking swahili?



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 05:08 PM
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Hey Vushta, How would you like it if a group of people followed you around with a gun to your head everywhere you went. Care to stop them? Well don't because Nobody pulled the trigger yet so it doesn't effect you.

by the way Wondernut you got a WATS from me.



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 05:18 PM
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I miss the rights that the sixth amendment garauntees... what part of THAT dont you get?


How exactly is it that you're 'missing it'?


you would know that ANYONE that violates ANY law of the US can be deemed an enemy combatant... ANYONE.. you, me, ANYONE... US citizen or not.
.

Your implication is that any joe blow minding his own business and happens to jaywalk is going to end up in a military brig somewhere? Thats paranoid. Got any examples?


I AM an american citizen who no longer has the sixth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America to protect me from the govt. Whether I need it or not.


Bull. You have your sixth rights. Like I asked..any other examples of anyone you know being carted away in the night by the evil gubment?


typical.. if it isnt happening to you then it isnt happening and the right is still there...


Well no. Its not that 'if it isn't happening to you then it isn't happening'....it just isn't happening period.

And yes you still do have your 6th rights. Why do you think you don't? Give me an example.



The ability of this to happen to you is now applicable...get it yet?.. the Padilla case has set a precident...


Wrong.


. so you know that now ANYONE CAN BE HELD without the SIXTH AMENDMENT rights.


Wrong.



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by grimreaper797
Hey Vushta, How would you like it if a group of people followed you around with a gun to your head everywhere you went. Care to stop them? Well don't because Nobody pulled the trigger yet so it doesn't effect you.

by the way Wondernut you got a WATS from me.


That anology make no applicable sense.



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by Vushta

Originally posted by Tone23
The ability of this to happen to you is now applicable...get it yet?.. the Padilla case has set a precident...


Wrong.


Ok, how about taking a Civics class (or taking it again, for that matter if you already have).




The United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit has stated:

Stare decisis is the policy of the court to stand by precedent; the term is but an abbreviation of stare decisis et non quieta movere--"to stand by and adhere to decisions and not disturb what is settled." Consider the word "decisis." The word means, literally and legally, the decision. [ . . . U]nder the doctrine of stare decisis a case is important only for what it decides--for the "what," not for the "why," and not for the "how." Insofar as precedent is concerned, stare decisis is important only for the decision, for the detailed legal consequence following a detailed set of facts.

United States Internal Revenue Serv. v. Osborne (In re Osborne), 76 F.3d 306, 96-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 50,185 (9th Cir. 1996).
Source


or


The United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit has stated:

A judicial precedent attaches a specific legal consequence to a detailed set of facts in an adjudged case or judicial decision, which is then considered as furnishing the rule for the determination of a subsequent case involving identical or similar material facts and arising in the same court or a lower court in the judicial hierarchy.

Allegheny General Hospital v. NLRB, 608 F.2d 965, 969-970 (3rd Cir. 1979) (footnote omitted), as quoted in United States Internal Revenue Serv. v. Osborne (In re Osborne), 76 F.3d 306, 96-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 50,185 (9th Cir. 1996).
Source


So yeah, actually there is an existence of precedence in the legal system in the United States. I do not know whether or not you are a citizen of this country, but either way I believe that you may need to take some time to understand the legal system before you take it upon yourself to simply reply with "wrong" when someone states that legal actions have created a legal precedent.

For Further Reading



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 05:37 PM
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Vushta,

Are you serious? The acts, executive orders and processes they employed to treat Padilla the way they treated him are just as alive, well and threatening to any of us right now! I cannot believe you said "are you Padilla"?

Just like I said before, if you have to ask for whom the bell tolls, you're not thinking of constitutional rights in the correct frame of mind, because this issue should be important to you no matter what citizen is being robbed...not just when it finally happens to you.



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 05:47 PM
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My life or liberties haven't been affected since. Or well, I now have to show my Social Security card to the bank to open an account and to renew my fishing license. So that's 10 minutes of my life wasted away because of the governments need to make sure I am not a "terrorist".



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by Vushta



Vushta why do you think people keep saying that? Becuase they can't take there heads out of there butts to really see the truth. It's not quick, it will become slow and slow and slow until one day were all screwed out of our minds. Well happy with your goddamn negative beings and galactic federation posts. Deny ignorance? yeah ok, i suppose ignorance is our best friends now isn't it? I was the only one here that posted something government/corporate was actually doing. Because it seems like i'm the only few on here that get there heads out of the clouds and actually see what's going in america. There was no bombs in the buildings, there was no bombs on the planes, and there sure as heck wasn't any aliens involved in 9-11 either. We can all chalk up to human stupidity/incompanants. We hold so much in things that give nothing in return, how pitifull. People are pussies (sorry i have to use this) becuase when you ask them something, they never can answer. You know what i think? (sarcasm) The world is really controlled by giant laser shooting teddy bears. And aliens are just a prerequisite of us being forcefed peyote in our drinking water (end sarcasm).


I understand the concept....but it contains zero information. Seriously what is it that you think will happen?..everyone dressed in government issued grey cloths?..tatoos on everyones forehead designating station in life?..what? Honestly that 'slippery slope' bullsnot is more often than not just bullsheet. "If you smoke a joint..the next week you'll be on heroin".."If you have to register your firearm..next week they'll take them away".. Its bullshiet.

But Duhhs thread was ..what liberty do YOU miss the most? And true to form all the paranoids have nothing to offer as examples other than minor inconviences. Thats just nothing but real real whiney.

You talk about people getting their heads out of the clouds or denying ignorance..there are a bunch of crazy people who would just love to kill you. And your suggestions for dealing with the problem is ...what?

But the question remains..what exactly is it that you could do 5 years ago that you can't do now?


hmm well i don't really understand how my assertion makes me any stupider then the person sitting next to me. All i stated was in plain site, is the paranoia maniacs are absolutely moronic. And who would like to kill me, just because i spoke my mind? So i suppose believing in a galactic federation is better then actually dealing with the problem? Well, it's hard to stop liars in there tracks, sorry bud but to clairfy my point i don't really have much with dealing with the problem, but we pretty much believe everything we read. Well i can't get a job very easily thanks to corporate outsourcing. Plus i can't get a house around here for fear of it being taken away from me. And please clairify on the whole killing me part, thanks. It's so nice to spoil someone's dreams of lizards ruling the planet, and have this untruth come crashing down around them.



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by Vushta

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Hey Vushta, How would you like it if a group of people followed you around with a gun to your head everywhere you went. Care to stop them? Well don't because Nobody pulled the trigger yet so it doesn't effect you.

by the way Wondernut you got a WATS from me.


That anology make no applicable sense.


hell yes it does. Just because nobody has pulled the trigger yet doesnt mean the gun cant kill you. As long as your not aware the gun is pointed at your head then no harm? Just because you dont see it doesnt mean it cant kill you.

Telll me Vushta, do you know anybody who has been carted away and got off because of the 6th amendment? If not, how do you know its still there? I mean if you want to play by these rules well then lets play em. Who do you know personally that has been protected by the 6th amendment post 9/11? Nobody, well then I can use your mindset and say "since you or no one you know has been protected by the 6th amendment in a court of law, that means its not there" I sound pretty stupid saying that, but dont worry because you sound just as bad when you say it too.

[edit on 12-8-2006 by grimreaper797]



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by Valhall
Vushta,

Are you serious? The acts, executive orders and processes they employed to treat Padilla the way they treated him are just as alive, well and threatening to any of us right now! I cannot believe you said "are you Padilla"?

Just like I said before, if you have to ask for whom the bell tolls, you're not thinking of constitutional rights in the correct frame of mind, because this issue should be important to you no matter what citizen is being robbed...not just when it finally happens to you.


Yes I'm serious.

Its possible that Padilla is not just 'some guy' that the gubment is picking on. We'll see.

Anyway in April of this year key SC officials stated that they will be watching the case to see that all rights are afforded Padilla that are guaranteed to all federal criminal defendants. He will have his day in court. The system functioned.

How does this equal zero rights ala some kind of police state? Theres a good chance that the guy is a slime ball.

You guys are really paranoid.



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 06:34 PM
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Oh, gotcha! So if you're a slime ball - the constitution gets suspended.

I don't need to talk to you anymore.



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by Vushta
Its possible that Padilla is not just 'some guy' that the gubment is picking on. We'll see.

Why you sure are going for a bit of defense on someone that is "possibly" not being picked on! For more, see my last response to your post.


Anyway in April of this year key SC officials stated that they will be watching the case to see that all rights are afforded Padilla that are guaranteed to all federal criminal defendants. He will have his day in court. The system functioned.

Yeah, it is functioning in this case now but it sure did sputter more than it ever should have in the first place, didn't it?


How does this equal zero rights ala some kind of police state? Theres a good chance that the guy is a slime ball. You guys are really paranoid.


You already have my answer to this above as well.

This country was never founded for it's citizenry to question "what if" on every little detail, and the fact that we must continue to debate the losses of liberty is at it's core enough of a trauma to this country. The fact that you are defending changes such as these is reprehensible, but then again, I have yet to see you bring any examples to show that your "safe and secure" world is in existence, now have you? You speak from personal experience, and some here are using country-wide experiences. Who do you think is more important. My country is more important to me than myself. It is beyond my personal experiences. It is the culmination of the liberty and safety guaranteed to be afforded to all citizens of this country. When it is taken away, or even the threat of it being taken away exists, then there are major issues, and that, exists whether you wish to believe in them or not.



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 06:44 PM
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And please clairify on the whole killing me part, thanks.


You're kidding right?

There appears to be a bunch of Islamic fanatics who seem to want to bring back the 'ol Caliphate and are willing to kill anyone who gets in their way. Do you really think that if they had a nuclear weapon they wouldn't use it??

I ask a question a couple of posts back that none of you seem to want to address.

What would you suggest be done to disrupt the numerous organizations that would like to kill all infidels?

How would you keep track of their activities and plans?



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by grimreaper797

Originally posted by Vushta

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Hey Vushta, How would you like it if a group of people followed you around with a gun to your head everywhere you went. Care to stop them? Well don't because Nobody pulled the trigger yet so it doesn't effect you.

by the way Wondernut you got a WATS from me.


That anology make no applicable sense.


hell yes it does. Just because nobody has pulled the trigger yet doesnt mean the gun cant kill you. As long as your not aware the gun is pointed at your head then no harm? Just because you dont see it doesnt mean it cant kill you.

Telll me Vushta, do you know anybody who has been carted away and got off because of the 6th amendment? If not, how do you know its still there? I mean if you want to play by these rules well then lets play em. Who do you know personally that has been protected by the 6th amendment post 9/11? Nobody, well then I can use your mindset and say "since you or no one you know has been protected by the 6th amendment in a court of law, that means its not there" I sound pretty stupid saying that, but dont worry because you sound just as bad when you say it too.

[edit on 12-8-2006 by grimreaper797]


Well no. The anology is completely false.
There is no gun.

When cornered..resort to old standbys? Shifting the burden of proof.

You made the claim that the 6th no longer applies to US citizens.

The burden of proof is on you to provide examples and evidence to support your claim.



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