1904 British Enfield

I bought a 303 British Enfield from either 1904 or 1919 at a flea market. On one side it has B.S.A.C, and under that 1904. It also has a roman numerial III on the safety. I bought it for $100.00. Being that it's so old, is it worth more than that or are there tons of these old rifles in warehouses somwhere?


If someone knows, please tell me.

[edit on 7-8-2006 by Full_Auto77]

posted by Full_Auto77

“ . . a 303 British Enfield from either 1904 or 1919 . . one side has B.S.A.C, and under that 1904. It also has a roman numeral III on the safety. Being it's so old, is it worth more than $100 or are there tons of these old rifles in warehouses somewhere . . “ [Edited by Don W]

I’d say there are a lot of those rifles out there. The British Army used that weapon all through World War Two. Based on the German Mauser bolt action of the 1880s as was also the US Model 1903 Springfield - and which I believe is still used in the Winchester Model 70 and Remington Model 700.

In both cases - Enfield and Springfield - the number manufactured must exceed 5 million. Value in such a plentiful weapon is primarily based on condition. How would you rate it on the NRA scale for used weapons?



[edit on 8/7/2006 by donwhite]

This address will take you to a surplus military rifle site: www.surplusrifle.com...

Note that hey have specific sections on a particular rifle and there's usually several articles within each section that pertain to the rifle.
Many times the articles have excellent close-up color photos on take-down, re-assembly and the like.

The forum's have a tremendous amount of information and they're broken down into sections for bolt actions, semi-auto's etc.
Within each section is a particular rifle, Enfield, SKS etc.

Enfield No. III? SMLE?

Link, just to help out.

Sounds interesting. You can barely find any Lee Enfields up here anymore- they're jealously hoarded for being the only rifle permitted ten rounds in the magazine (5 is the standard for rifle rounds, the only other exception is the M1 Garand...but strangely, not the Garand Carbine). I've love to own a Mark IV someday... if I can ever find one up here.

DE

[edit on 7-8-2006 by DeusEx]

My dad used to have the same gun with 1916 stamped on the side. Fantastic gun! It is extremely reliable. If it's oiled and cleaned up you'll notice how fast and smooth the bolt action is. During WW I the Germans who fought against the British sometimes thought the British had fully automatic weapons. A good soldier could throw out 40 rounds per min. with one of these.


Don't sell this gun. Keep it and get it in good working order.

Originally posted by dbates



Don't sell this gun. Keep it and get it in good working order.

Actully it works. It's shoots great. I just wanted to know if maby it's worht more than 100. Not much rust on it either. And it does have a 10 round magazine.

I'd pay you two hundred for one of those...well, if the border fees weren't ridiculous, the paywork to import it weigh as much as I do, border guards tugging at the leash to crawl up my ass and take a look around,and a whole host of other circumstances generally make the entire experience vastly unpleasant. Still, if there's more of those at the flea market or whatever, pick up a few. They're great collector's items and fantastic weapons. Like dbates said, the germans thought the Tommies had full-auto rifles in the day because a trained private could fire thirty aimed shots in a minute, more if he wasn't paying attention to where his bullets went.

DE

Originally posted by Full_Auto77
I bought a 303 British Enfield from either 1904 or 1919 at a flea market. On one side it has B.S.A.C, and under that 1904. It also has a roman numerial III on the safety. I bought it for $100.00. Being that it's so old, is it worth more than that or are there tons of these old rifles in warehouses somwhere?


If someone knows, please tell me.

[edit on 7-8-2006 by Full_Auto77]

Hey Full Auto

Seen the Comments, and did not feel you where getting the info your sought

Basic Enfield Identification and the Facts about Serial Numbers
enfieldrifles.profusehost.net...

Enfields at a Glance
Here is a simple shadow board depicting the 4 most common Enfields.

See the Photo

Serial Numbers, Model, Mark and Manufacture Identification

Over the years I have received many emails regarding serial numbers. The volume of serial number inquiries has prompted me to fashion this page together and try and explain how best to identify a particular rifles manufacturer. Truth be known about Enfield serial numbers is simply, the serial number was used more for production counting than any other reason. For official references, usually the finished and issued rifle was tracked by its rack number and of course these records have long since been destroyed or lost forever. This is not to say that Enfield serial numbers provide no information or that they are not an interesting subject. For those out there that want to get deeper into the serial number issues I would suggest purchasing either Skip Stratton’s or Ian Skennerton’s books. What this page will attempt to provide is a basic overview of the serial system and where to find them along with the manufacture markings and barrel date stamp that is common on most Enfields.

It goes on a gives breif outline on Markings and where to find them

The Main Site is at the following:
enfieldrifles.profusehost.net...

As for Value, The Prices in Canada would fall between $150.00 (Good Condition) to $350.00 (Very Good) and likely near $400.00 Plus for an Excellent Unit.

I had worked with an Autcioneer in the region that did estate and consignment sales of unwanted Firearms and associated items, and the Ballpark would have been in these ranges for Open Bidding.

But as review of this site explains, in some cases, there was a limited run on production, and due to rarity, I would expect some of those to exceed the $1000.00 Mark.

I actually was able to obtain a few things from the Elwood Epps sale, such as Load charts and Load Equiment for the 303 a few years ago.

Elwood was a Much Reputed expert on the 303 in Canada, and did some work with the Military here, as well as producing some of the Best Loads Possible for the Rifle.

A small Blurp from the net on Elwood

www.e-gunparts.com...
Mr.Elwood Epps, is a renowned Gunsmith operating in Canada. For a while, his speciality was the rework of British/ Canadian Mil-surp into sporting and hunting rifles. Both the Ross,SMLE and P-14. The cartridge in question is also known as the .303 British Improved(Epps) It is a "blown out" .303 British that is made by taking boxer primable .303 commericial brass and taper expanding to .325 dia. and then running this into a modified (Epps) .303 Full Length sizing die. DonDon, The main dimension difference is from the base to the shoulder. The standard round measures 1.786, while the Epps measures 1.880 which may be enough to make up the headspace problem you have with your rifle. It is generally felt that firing standard ammo in an Epps chamber would be all right(I haven't done it)However, The cost of having a reamer cut and a sizing die made would far out price, just using fireform techniques, already discussed, to make up brass that is unique to your rifle and shooting reduced loads. Ballistically the .303 Brit. pushes a 174 gr bullet at 2300 fps, while the Epps version would up this by a few hundred feet per second.Maybe as lottle as 100fps. Mainly due to the larger case capacity: Brit.= 55.65 grs of water and the Epps= 59.73. I know of no source of commercial ammo or brass for this round. It is your basic "wildcat" and all that goes with that...applies!

Ciao

Shane

P.S. As an aside, there was mention of one of our most famous, or infamous rifles in the piece above.

The Ross Rifle.

NEVER BUY ONE OF THESE. THE BOLTS DO NOT ALWAYS SEAT PROPERLY, as many shooters found out during their last breath.

The Bolts had a nasty habit of coming back at you and embedding into the shooter's skull.

And it was worthless in the field, due to the Precision. It had no tolerance for Dust/Dirt/Grim, and while running up the Beaches, the Canadians where dropping the Ross's and picking up either the Brit's 303s or Gerry's Mausers

www.mysteriesofcanada.com...

But for A Shooting Range these also where very accurate.

And if your interested in keeping your 303, here's a Site with Parts, as well as some Manuels
www.ima-usa.com...


[edit on 7-8-2006 by Shane]

Damn, Shane. For serious, I haven't seen an Enfield go up for sale but to be taken down within the week. And they never go for less than 450$. I've only been around the firearms 'scene' about two years, so my experience is a little limited, especially since I was in college most of the time. Still, if you could direct me to a site where there are Enfields and Garands on the cheap, it would be much appreciated.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
Damn, Shane. For serious, I haven't seen an Enfield go up for sale but to be taken down within the week. And they never go for less than 450$. I've only been around the firearms 'scene' about two years, so my experience is a little limited, especially since I was in college most of the time. Still, if you could direct me to a site where there are Enfields and Garands on the cheap, it would be much appreciated.

DE

Hey, your in the Area.

There should be an Auction coming up in Sept or Early October at the Creemore Legion, done by John Simpsons Auctions. Well look at that. Here it is.

FIREARMS, MILITARIA & SPORTSMAN'S AUCTION
www.simpsonauctions.com...

Saturday, September 23 @ 10am to be held at the

Royal Canadian Legion Hall, 27 Wellington Street West, Creemore, Ontario

1303
LEE ENFIELD
No5 Mk1 ROF(F), Jungle Carbine, 10sht, good cond.
473mm
L4067
303Brit

1304
LEE ENFIELD
No4 Mk2(F), 7/53,10sht, good condition
640mm
PF306653
303Brit

1305
LEE ENFIELD
No4 Mk1 ROF(F), 1943, 5sht, good cond.
640mm
AH2018
303Brit

1306
LEE ENFIELD
No1 Mk3* 1941 Lithgow, 10sht, good cond.
640mm
B84342
303Brit

1307
ENFIELD
Pattern 1914 (Remington), 5sht
660mm
196146
303Brit

1311
LEE ENFIELD
Mark 1* Target Rifle, 297/230 Morris Short (CF), single shot, w/original magazine (303), volley sight group, steel bolt cover, front sight cover, 1940 military leather sling, ---rounds of 297/230 Morris Short ammunition; this rare rifle was used primarily for indoor target practice; it is in fine museum quality condition
769mm
658

I only picked out the 303's in this coming auction, and I would expect LOT# 1311 to go for about $450.00 to $500.00 since Museum Condition is noted. Then again, if TWO (2) Collectors are onsite, I maybe a little underpriced. Anything is possible, and a rare piece has value regardless.

The Balance would be about $300.00 since they are all REGISTERED FIREARMS.

Without the Gun Registry, the prices on these items would be nearly double.

The Point is, with Consignment Auctions, people will aquire what suits their wallets, and will buy anything in any condition if it's not registered. I've seen pieces, (ie Firing Parts, Bolts, Barrels, and Stock Pieces go for as much as a Complete Rifle, since Registry is not part of the Package. And I have seen $2000.00 Firearms, being sold for $500.00 just because it was registered.

And everything John sells, IS SOLD ACCORDING TO CANADIAN FIREARM LAWS.

But keep watching John's site and hit the Upcoming Link on the side to keep an update on what will be there. You'll need a FAC, unless you only purchase Unregistered Firearms, such as Black Powder Muskets and some pre 1900 (I think) Rifles/Shotguns

But there's LOT # 1303 thru 1307, which ALL Likely came from the Same Source, due to the "Sequence" which I would think you could get at $250.00 to $300.00 each or there about.

If you figure you have $450.00, go and see which ONE you wish to have and Bid. I think, you could get two with that money. Anyways good luck.

I have toooo many tools of this nature to be in a position to acquire anylonger.

Ciao

Shane

P.S. Sometime in the near future, I think Photo's of everything will be onsite for this sale. They do take reserve bid's providing your using Visa.

If you find a Firearm that suits your interests, place a $450.00 reserve on it via Phone. During the Auction, this will be held "IN TRUST" and during the Bidding, someone working for John will act on your behalf. Bidding will rise by $25.00 a bid, and start at around $100.00. Your "Agent" would be bidding until the unit was sold, which could be a price of $275.00. Then you got you rifle at that price. If the Bidding went past $450.00, then you do not get your firearm, and still have your $450.00. I seen this done many times, and they are honest in dealing as such.

ALSO, I never did see a lot of US pieces go thru the Acution site. Mostly Brit, German, and USSR/Asian Variants, but you never know. Keep an Eye Open on the site..

And if your "Starting" and plan to acquire an arsenal, so to speak, get your Licenses, and take $2000.00 With you. 30-30's, Shotguns, 3006's, 22's 308's and likely a good amount of Reloading Equipment will be there. It's a Fantastic place to get "Some Tools', as a new collector! I think you can still own 8 Registered Firearms in Canada without being considered a Collector. I think there are worst restrictions on Collectors, (Storage Inspections, and such)

Lots of Ishapores (Indian Enfields in .308 Win/7.62x51mm) out there right now, a fair smattering of Enfields with the wire wrap that was used to strengthen the barrel/forearm for grenade launching and most recently AIM Surplus has a LOT of Enfield IIAs for sale at low dollars.

Be vewy, vewy careful with your acquisition if you plan on shooting it. Have a gunsmith check the headspace and locking lugs. You really don't want a .303 chamber/case failure 4 inches from your face.

Bottom line, there are a lot right now but that will change. If they ever release any Webley Mk.IV or Mk.VI revolvers for sale in their original chamberings (38/200 and .455) I would get one in a heartbeat, real British heritage. Ironic that they are illegal to own in the UK.

Interesting historical note - did you know that the early manufacture of .303 cartridges involved the employment of legions of women who were required to manually place pre-measured quantities of cordite rods into each cartridge.

Originally posted by Retseh
Be vewy, vewy careful with your acquisition if you plan on shooting it. Have a gunsmith check the headspace and locking lugs. You really don't want a .303 chamber/case failure 4 inches from your face.

I just think this bears repreating

HAVE A GUNSMITH Check anything you purchase and intend to fire.

I have a Good One to Suggest, if you (DeusEx) do go to that Auction.

He is Elwood's Grandson, and he has his own shop "Wisechoice" located on Highway 11 N, just south of Gravenhurst. He also does some work for Tremblays Tackle in Orillia.

He is the best in Ontario, since Elwood Passed away.

Ciao

Shane

Well, I'll be damned. The Firearms Act is good for something after all. I am shocked that our country's poor, backwards, screwed up attempts at gun control will actually BENEFIT me.

Also, I am mildly scandalized that you imply that I was a part of Toronto's grotesque firearms issue. In fact, I am a former security guard and current applicant to the Canadian Forces. My interest in firearms started out in a purely professional sense (basic instruction by friends as how to NOT get shot) but, as it turns out, I rather enjoy shooting as well. No harm done, though.

I am interested in the auction, but I have to pay off college loans. If I should get a little lucky and manage to save the two grand required, I would rather like to pick up a K98 and a Garand as well as an SMLE. A pump action shotgun in addition to some other militaria would not go unappreciated, however. Many thanks for the help, Shane. And excellent warning about the Ross.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
If I should get a little lucky and manage to save the two grand required, I would rather like to pick up a K98 and a Garand as well as an SMLE. A pump action shotgun in addition to some other militaria would not go unappreciated, however.

I love shooting the old bolt actions, and own quite a collection of German Mausers, Enfields, Springfields, and even a 30-40 Krag... But the best darn shooting that you'll ever enjoy from these vintage rifles is the Swedish Mauser. They are works of art, and a pleasure to shoot. The 6.5X55 cartridge is a flat shooting low recoil (compared to the 7mm & 8mm Mauser, .303., and 30-06) cartridge that may reflect the the direction NATO is going in now for the next generation of assault rifle/SAW. Accuracy is the rifle's strong suit, and I've embarrassed more than a couple of "fancy rig' types at the range with my "meatball rifle."

Swedish Monkeys, not just for wedding receptions anymore...

Originally posted by DeusEx
Well, I'll be damned. The Firearms Act is good for something after all. I am shocked that our country's poor, backwards, screwed up attempts at gun control will actually BENEFIT me.

Also, I am mildly scandalized that you imply that I was a part of Toronto's grotesque firearms issue. DE

Well this just means, when they come for the Firearms, they'll have your address onfile and will not have to wonder where it is. (Hopefully, this will get scrapped in the next few months)

And I did not intend to Mildly Scandalize, or scandalize in anyway shape or form.

If it was the Arsenal comment, I didn't mean it in a Bad manner.

HEY, and a few things.

1: Good luck in the Forces (if you do get in), and may God be with you where ever you are stationed.

2: I understand from some friends I had in the Barrie Gun Club, (which is a fine facility), that there is a good Market within the Forces for Firearms. Good equipment at fair prices. (FN's, 303's, Handguns)

3: Every Other Month, on the First Sunday, (I think the next one is the First Sunday of Oct/06) there is a Gun Show at the Orangeville Arena.

Costs $5.00 to get in, and Children and Ladies are free.

Opens at 7:30 or 8:00 AM, and the best deal are at this time. (As the Clock ticks away, so do the Bargins.)

There are some Private People with Booths selling just about anything, (Legal Anything). Lots of Ammo Selling, as well as Parts and Such. But yes, some of the Booths are Businesses catering to Firearm People. (Those who still believe the Magna Carta means anything). But this could be an option as well. People will barter. IF you see something you would pay $350.00 for, but buddy wishes to get $400.00 or so, at 8AM, he maybe willing to sell at Noon, for what your best offer would be. Maybe $325.00 at that time, since you spent a bit here and there at the show. You must be sneeky like this sometimes.

Purchase a Super Shopper on Thursday around to see if there's one (a Show) listed in the Firearms section, and if not, pickup the Super Shopper in Mid/Late Sept to see if it is in Early Oct/06. Also, if you like, Pickup a Super Shopper everyweek. There are always somethings showing up everyweek.

Get it early as possible on Thrusdays, since by Friday, most deals are gone.

Ciao

Shane

Enfield 2As for $169.95 - link below:

www.aimsurplus.com...

Now this is the British Enfield to have. Mind you now ..nothing wrong with the British .303 caliber round. Its just that the .308 brings you up to speed with much of todays potential in this caliber and better ballistic performance. Also for reloaders the .308 has a large abundance of bullet weights as well as powder/primer types available to get the last edge in performance for which one might desire. No doubt the rifle can take the increase in power of the .308 caliber.

I have book marked that site for future use. I have been looking for a site like this as I was not particularly fond of the .303 caliber though I recognize that the rifle is capable of rough tough treatment and keeps on going. I admire this in any design and the British Lee Enfield definitely has this pedigree throughout its long history of serving the Empire.

Good price on this rifle too. Yup..for my money the .308 caliber Lee Enfield is the way to go.

One more thing. It is intresting to read that in the Iraq war...some of the early model long barreled Enfields showed up in peoples private homes. I found that very intresting. They must go back to the 1920s or before in time. Some of them looked in good shape too. They must be some real museum pieces.

Thanks for the site,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999


One more thing. It is intresting to read that in the Iraq war...some of the early model long barreled Enfields showed up in peoples private homes. I found that very intresting. They must go back to the 1920s or before in time. Some of them looked in good shape too. They must be some real museum pieces.

Thanks for the site,
Orangetom

hi just to let you know , some of the early ones turning up in iraq have been picked up by the British Imperial War Museum. i will try to find out of my sister in law who works there what models etc they have aquired.


interesting topic BTW

[edit on 9-8-2006 by snoopyuk]

Perhaps this site would be of interest.

www.jgsales.com...

Enfield #4 303 caliber rifles for $109.95 US.
The Enfield I saw hanging on the wall looked pretty good.
I bought an SKS carbine there and got an excellent one.

J&G is in Prescott, Arizona.

The Enfields are available in the US by going the FFL to FFL route or obtaining your own C&R (Curios's & Relics) license and having it shipped direct.

This site also has information listed on how to get your C&R license.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Now this is the British Enfield to have. Mind you now ..nothing wrong with the British .303 caliber round. Its just that the .308 brings you up to speed with much of todays potential in this caliber and better ballistic performance. Also for reloaders the .308 has a large abundance of bullet weights as well as powder/primer types available to get the last edge in performance for which one might desire. No doubt the rifle can take the increase in power of the .308 caliber.

I have book marked that site for future use. I have been looking for a site like this as I was not particularly fond of the .303 caliber though I recognize that the rifle is capable of rough tough treatment and keeps on going. I admire this in any design and the British Lee Enfield definitely has this pedigree throughout its long history of serving the Empire.

Good price on this rifle too. Yup..for my money the .308 caliber Lee Enfield is the way to go.

One more thing. It is intresting to read that in the Iraq war...some of the early model long barreled Enfields showed up in peoples private homes. I found that very intresting. They must go back to the 1920s or before in time. Some of them looked in good shape too. They must be some real museum pieces.

Thanks for the site,
Orangetom

My pleasure OrangeTom. The big problem with .303 is that it is rimmed and will jam if not loaded correctly. Not too much of an inconvenience for us, but in battle it could lead to a really bad day. Also, the Mujahideen were still using Martini Henrys in their original caliber well into the 1980s. They claimed it was the only rifle round capable of cracking the rotor head on Russian helicopters.

Desert Dawg - Good to see a fellow Valley dweller, ever do any desert shooting? I'm still trying to find that perfect location.

[edit on 9-8-2006 by Retseh]