50+ People Dead in Israeli Air Strike on Apartment House.

Quite frankly, these leaders are punks and thugs, criminally incompetent punks and thugs without a plan that'll insure any peace let alone a lasting and just peace.

REPLY: You realise that you just described 85% of the "statesmen" at the United Nations?

In response to Shots a survivor was interviewed and his response was telling..."Yes we were told to leave but they were also heavily bombing the only road out of here so what do we do?"

REPLY: Ummmm, what did they do before they had roads. 'Ya go around the craters.

If we could forget Iran and Syria for a moment: I would guarantee that if Hamass and Hezbubble gave up their weapons, there would be peace in the region. If Isreal gave up it's weapons, there would be another Holocaust.

If only there would be a way to make that happen.....
If you don't see that as being the case, then you haven't been paying attention, and don't have a clue.

No actually I would say that you are the one without a clue if you think violence will solve anything at all.....but then again we have had this debate ad nausium and you have yet to prove your case for continued bloodshed.

Originally posted by grover
No actually I would say that you are the one without a clue if you think violence will solve anything at all.....but then again we have had this debate ad nausium and you have yet to prove your case for continued bloodshed.

REPLY: Again, and for the last time, I mentioned America's independence; the war against Hitler, and Japan. And, no.... answering a question with a question is not an answer; you'd be kicked out of debate class in 15 minutes.

Ignore! Bye.

I love these people... when they cannot deal with any ideas other than their own they ignore...God bless you zappa.

Originally posted by grover
No actually I would say that you are the one without a clue if you think violence will solve anything at all.....but then again we have had this debate ad nausium and you have yet to prove your case for continued bloodshed.

I would ask you to name a single human conflict resolved without the complete destruction of one opposing side?

True peace IS NOT the abscense of confilct, it is the inability to make war. Simply talking and playing "nice" like on an elementary school playground is pure fantasy.

Bully's continue until beated down. Terrorist continue until killed.

The UN diplomacy is pure insanity to KILL Israel not to stop hostility.

Perhaps it is you grover who needs to face reality.

What a sad and pathetic way of looking at the world.

True peace is rooted in understanding and compassion...your vision of it would simply lead to resentment and more violence, but then again I really don't expect you to understand that.

I find it absolutely appalling that someone would seriously suggest that you have to bludgeon your way to peace. That is the argument of the bully and the aggressor, not of the peacemaker. I have said it once and I will say it again after 5,000 years of written history, such tactics have gotten us nowhere. Such a peace is the peace of the graveyard. It is not until we put aside such childish notions and talk to each other like serious sober adults, no pushing Israel into the sea, no killing all of the Jews or the Americans or all of the whomever, no bombing the other side into submission, a submission surely to be hated and resented and to be the fuel of more violence, but talk like serious, sober adults talking about serious, sober things, will there be any serious hope for peace.

In the long run despite protests to the contrary, this is the only way forward.

thermopolis: Nice post, but neither you or I will ever change the mind of a Peace Weenie who has no clue. I rarely use "ignore' but after four days of reading his stuff, and ignoring factual info, was just too much.

I had mentioned that the building took almost 8 hours before it collapsed, yet these people did not get out or ..... were not allowed to be rescued? I wouldn't put it past Hezbubble to do something like that.

Civilians being killed is always a bad thing. But there's a large difference between "innocent" civilians, and "civilians." deaths of children is worse. But, as we both know.... when it comes to Palestinian children: "If they don't grow up, they won't blow up."

I mentioned this to him yesterday, and I found what I said I would, as it relates to civilians:

From the 4th Geneva Convention; Article 27 and 28:

Article 27
Protected persons are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons, their honour, their family rights, their religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs. They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof and against insults and public curiosity.

So, as shown above, Hezbubble is not doing this because of they're placement of rocket/missile launchers in civilian areas, then move out, knowing full well that there will be attacks killing civilians. Those civilians should be (if armed) sniping the Hez if they arrive in their neighborhood.

Article 28
The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

The above shows that, according to the Geneva Convention, civilian areas are not immune to attack.

[edit on 4-8-2006 by zappafan1]

Originally posted by grover
I find it absolutely appalling that someone would seriously suggest that you have to bludgeon your way to peace. That is the argument of the bully and the aggressor, not of the peacemaker. I have said it once and I will say it again after 5,000 years of written history, such tactics have gotten us nowhere. Such a peace is the peace of the graveyard. It is not until we put aside such childish notions and talk to each other like serious sober adults, no pushing Israel into the sea, no killing all of the Jews or the Americans or all of the whomever, no bombing the other side into submission, a submission surely to be hated and resented and to be the fuel of more violence, but talk like serious, sober adults talking about serious, sober things, will there be any serious hope for peace.

In the long run despite protests to the contrary, this is the only way forward.

Ok, one more shot at this..............

Grover, are you willing to stand by and let someone murder YOU and the remained or your family if it is preventable. In that prevention you must take the life of the intruder? There is no other choice. The intruder is completely insane, has already killed half your family and is still shooting............But the intruder is holding his own mother as a human shield. To kill the intruder you "might" hit his mother.

Do you accept this possibility?

Thermopolis: I just love this quote from grover:
"I have said it once and I will say it again after 5,000 years of written history, such tactics have gotten us nowhere."

I've brought up Hitlar, Japan, et-al, but he just refuses to understand.
Have fun.....



[edit on 4-8-2006 by zappafan1]

NO you two refuse to understand.

This so called peace weenie as you so insultingly call me knows full well that there are times to fight and that there are times to just walk away. Unlike you however I can take someone disagreeing with me without ignoring them or go running off to a moderator to try and get them banned.

I know that there is a time and a place for war but I also know that it should always be a matter of last resort, not first choice. War always represents a failure at diplomacy.

You Zappa are not exactly a brain surgeon, some of your ideas are way out in left field and more than a little loopy but I don't hold that against you, I can always use some comic relief. You always say Hitler/Japan Hitler/Japan Hitler/Japan like some bloody mantra. I know full well they had to be stopped but you completely ignored me when I showed how WW2 grew out of several preceeding wars and and led directly into others illustrating quite well how ultimately, it didn't solve anything. Yes it broke Japan, who now owns us and got rid of Hitler but we are still fighting the echo's of that war.

Thats right in 5,000 years of fighting war has not solved anything and it certianly has not solved the problems in the middle-east but according to your philosophy, for a lack of a better word, they have to keep fighting until one or both sides are bled white.

Brilliant really bloody brilliant.

.... when it comes to Palestinian children: "If they don't grow up, they won't blow up."

That is a truly disgusting attitude Zappa and I assume that you are proud of it too which is even worse.

Originally posted by grover
NO you two refuse to understand.

This so called peace weenie as you so insultingly call me knows full well that there are times to fight and that there are times to just walk away. Unlike you however I can take someone disagreeing with me without ignoring them or go running off to a moderator to try and get them banned.

Nice try to divert attention to some "victim...isim". Please address the previous senario.

Please also name a single incident in history where "talking" solved a war?

Originally posted by zappafan1
But, as we both know.... when it comes to Palestinian children: "If they don't grow up, they won't blow up."

Drawing attention to this part my question to you is, why do you think that is so? Do you think it's genetic? That they're born to become suicide bombers?

Try to think, why do they blow themselves up in the midst of Israeli civillians? Indoctrination? Hopelessness? Why? Why?

by Beachcoma:

Drawing attention to this part my question to you is, why do you think that is so? Do you think it's genetic? That they're born to become suicide bombers?

Try to think, why do they blow themselves up in the midst of Israeli civillians? Indoctrination? Hopelessness? Why? Why?

REPLY: They've been taught (falsely) for almost two generations that the terrible Israelis stole their land so, indoctrination... yes. Remember, too, that 'ol Saddam helped fund the families that "donated" their children for the cause.

Look, let's all be reasonable here.

I can see both sides of this debate, and neither seems to be able to budge. The reason for this is that neither side is willing to cede that they might be wrong. I think both sides are wrong in their ideals.

I don't believe that Israel is right in the seemingly unprovoked massing of troops on the Western Syrian border. I think they're just trying to draw Syria, and via Syria Iran into the conflict.

At the same time, I think that the Lebanese Army and Government need to start taking responsibility for their people, or else Israel will do it for them. For example, if I knew that some group of people in my country were responsible for an invasion by a much more powerful neighbor, I'd find this group, and help the invaders exterminate them, as a way to drive the invaders out. The lack of this kind of action on Lebanon's part tells me one thing; they are in support of the actions of Hezbollah.

This being the case, I cannot, in good conscience, side with anyone BUT Israel, since they are doing the very same thing we did after 9/11 in the US. They are ridding their region of terrorists. Is this series of actions the right thing to do? I don't know, but I do know that it will solve the problem. Sometimes, it takes an iron hand to make some people comply. In this case, the iron hand is more of an exploding hand.

I must admit that I'm still borderline in support of anyone. I won't ever support Hezbollah, but I can't exactly support Israel, knowing that they may be trying to provoke an attack from Syria. That, to me, is unnacceptable, unless they can provide evidence to the shipment of Syrian and Iranian rockets to Hezbollah through them. In which case I'd be in favor of an extended invasion. But, they'd have to PROVE it to me first.

As for a ceasefire, should one come about, I foresee a seemingly quick end to the violence... for a time. Shortly after things die down, someone will fire a rocket again, and the whole thing will re-erupt. I want everyone to keep this in the back of your minds for in the event that a ceasefire does happen. Should it happen, and the conflict starts up again, I want everyone to remember who said it'd happen again.

The only solution to this situation is for one side to win. I hate to admit it, but I think, in this case anyway, the time for diplomacy has long passed. It's always nice to try, but it's pretty obvious that this is the same thing that the US went through in Afghanistan shortly after 9/11. Someone just needs to FINISH it already. Once that's done, things will at least take on a sense of normalcy, for a longer period anyway.



If you've all read this far, I thank you for indulging me in this little foray into my mind. If any of my logic seems misplaced, please point it out, and I'll try to reply accordingly. Again, I thank you all for listening to me. Any and all thoughts are appreciated.

TheBorg

Even in the heart of the most terrible violence and the bloodiest wars there is always a place for diplomacy, if there weren't all wars would be wars of attrition. Peace is not the result of bloodshed, peace comes from an attempt at understanding, not from bludgeoning each other to death.

Originally posted by zappafan1
thermopolis: Nice post, but neither you or I will ever change the mind of a Peace Weenie who has no clue. I rarely use "ignore' but after four days of reading his stuff, and ignoring factual info, was just too much.

I had mentioned that the building took almost 8 hours before it collapsed, yet these people did not get out or ..... were not allowed to be rescued? I wouldn't put it past Hezbubble to do something like that.

[edit on 4-8-2006 by zappafan1]

Since I have heard nothing whatsoever about it taking 8 hours for the building to collapse from any reputable news service I can only assume that you got it from either Mush Loosebowels or Faux news Zappa.

You want me, this peace weenie, to take your thoughts and ideas seriously, as being factual, but this comes from a man who has asserted on other threads that the NAACP is a racist organization and that all three branches of our government is controlled by communists among other things. You probably think that global warming is a liberal plot to take away your SUV or that it is caused by an abundance of cow farts as well. If your ideas weren't so dangerous, or weren't taken seriously by the moron-in-chief, you right wingers would be quint and amusing in a Jethro Bodine sort of way.

And you ridicule me!

Sorry, about the delay in my response. I’ve had rather the busy weekend and hope I will be able to address everything that you have asked or comments you have made in these posts.

I’ll address each poster, one by one just to make it easier on us all [and those who are reading.]

JudahMaccabbi, the issue with things like Operation Entebbee, is fully understandable. On one hand, you can’t set-up a system which rewards them for these actions. However, you can set-up a system which rewards them for not acting in such a manor and this is where Israel at present is lacking. Take the example of what hezbollah just did.

If Israel, are willing to sit down with them they can set down a framework. They sit with hezbollah and find out what they want - of course, idiotic things such as the destruction of Israel will not happen. However, they can sit with them and say: If we are at peace for X amount of time, we’ll release those who we have arrested. This will limit the ability for hezbollah to radicalise the population. Furthermore, the United State’s can redirect much of the funding to Israel into their own companies to help rebuild Lebanon. This would very much created damage reduction from the recent attacks and would help to show the United State’s and Israel in a positive light to those in the Middle East and would do more to stop attacks than the bombs will.

The next part also applies to centurion1211. Israel, along with everything I mentioned would not face destruction. Simply they set down to each group what must be done by them, before Israel will begin to share sovereignty of Jerusalem, before they will give over the prisoners. However, the best way is to offer them an incentive - but what has been given so far, has not been. Giving back scraps of land, but then constantly shelling them isn’t going to change things it’ll just help to increase the radicalisation of the population.

TheBorg, where has the policy Israel is using worked though?

You can use the examples, Zappafan1 does. Claiming, Adolf Hitler, World War Two Germany and many Nation’s are similar to a rag-tag, militia. Is almost laughable but I’ll explain that in his part of the post.

On to the questions you raise about 9/11, I actually disagreed with how the United State’s handled the issue. Not so much the invasion, but what has been done after. The whole invasion was actually massively supported in the Middle East, it was only due to actions in detainment, the paying of rival drug lords to capture Taliban members and then the current administration policy which has actually turned many Muslims against them. The invasion of Iraq, being a large catalyst for what we are seeing grow as anti-American and in general Western sentiment.

As for them not willing to lay down arms, this is where Israel needs to set down incentives. However, the longer they keep on bombing the worse things will be. Hezbollah have themselves said if Israel stops attacking they also will but Israel hasn’t. Is it that much of a risk to them, to cancel bombing today and say: O.K. then, this is your only chance to meet with us otherwise, it’ll be a full invasion? Of course not, but they won’t and instead they will create a new wave of Hezbollah fighters for another decade.

Furthermore, there is no way to win. You can not destroy an ideology. Find an example of it - even after the Nazi’s defeat in World War Two, groups still support the idea. The only way this will end is by both sides admitting they have done things that are wrong. Israel needs to move passed the fact these groups will not recognize their right to exist and get to the core of their supporters - the people. Once Israel shows itself to not be “Mr Bad” then these Nations will begin to loose support. The precedent is here, in fact just a glance at the U.K. and the I.R.A. show that.

thermopolis, I have actually listed on the other pages several times where negotiation has worked. However, I will be willing to do it again. One example of this, would be: Northern Ireland, another Zimbabwa, North Korea, the U.S.S.R, China and many others. If it is fine to use Hitler and World War Two as an example then those Nation’s are also fine to use.

However, I disagree with that myself. If you look at a historical point, nobody has yet to list a single incident where a militia has been beaten without negotiation. In fact, as Zappafan1 decided to use the American Revolutionary Army, he made a large mistake. Firstly, the British Empire was never destroyed by them - I would love to see you argue that. Secondly, it shows a lack of understand of what the Paris Peach Treaty actually did - although the British did loose a lot of land it actually during that period benefited them. The Paris Peace Treaty, actually caused the French to give up land to the British as reparation as well as damaging the French in their expansion in Africa. [Of course this happened at a later date in the Treaties of Versailles.] Furthermore, the War actually helped to cripple Spain and France and did more good than harm. However, it was ended through guess what? Negotiation in Paris not through destruction.

So again, I will ask: Where is there an example of an organized militia [with or without state funding] which HAS been destroyed by the group that they are fighting? Especially, within the Middle East and within the last [let’s be nice] 200 years. [Although, any historical example would be noted.]

My final statement, will just be to all of those who support all out war on terrorist organizations. Let us not forget, that during the British Occupation of Palestine, Irgun and Levi [to name but two] were terrorist groups. It is through negotiation that Israel even exists in the present day and to deny this is to deny historical fact. Clearly, if your policy of complete destruction upon terrorist groups should have been followed than Israel can not have the right to exist. Otherwise, the policy you push forward is exceptionally hypocritical. Also, it will raise questions on why you support terrorist groups which are Jewish in origin but not those that are Islamic in origin.

Edit: Remove one or two typos I found.

[edit on 5/8/2006 by Odium]

Originally posted by zappafan1
REPLY: They've been taught (falsely) for almost two generations that the terrible Israelis stole their land so, indoctrination... yes. Remember, too, that 'ol Saddam helped fund the families that "donated" their children for the cause.

Exactly! Now, don't you think it works both ways, too? Don't you think that Israeli children are also indoctrinated into the (false) believe that all palestinians are destined to be suicide bombers?