Originally posted by mindtrip02
.it says directly in the bible, do not chant

Thats a pretty silly restriction. Are you saying people go to hell for it?

what do the catholics do walking down there halls in their churches. THEY CHANT. and repeatedly do it...

?
Have you been to a catholic church??

" thou shalt not worship any gods before me"
and what do they do.. they call the pope " the father" and bow down to him as if he was god.

Catholics worship no god other than the Triune god of christianity.

3. another commandment... " thou shalt not worship and graven idols"
now it seems to me that all those statues in the catholic churches seem to be " idols"

Your impressions are simply wrong. They are what is called "statues". They are not idols, they are recognized as simple works of art, and the things that they represent are not worshipped, unless its jesus, and then, agian, its not the statue, or the cross, that is worshipped. Infact, one of the big splits between the orthodox church and catholic church was that the RCC thought that the orthodoxic use of religious Icons was too much like Idolatry.

this is not what the church is about. the flaunt money and place in society, it is about worshiping god, the father.

The RCC has a lot of money, yes. Are you saying that only the poor should run a church?

to worship god it can be in your own home.. because religion and spirit of such things as god is in your heart...
And how would you even have ever heard of jesus if it wasn't for organizations like the RCC or Orthodox church making copies of the bible, researching the books that were to go into them, bringing the bible and the faith to other parts of the world, etc etc?

Without a heirarchy, the religion becomes anarchic, just like with protestantism, there are many protestant groups, with contradictory beleifs, like baptists, mormons, jehovah's witnesses, unitarians, etc etc. Without a church organization, the religion falls apart and dissapears.


What does the RCC teach? Faith in Christ as Saviour and as part of the Trinity. Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are god, the only god in catholicism. And for all that, the Church is still 'universal' or 'catholic', it incorporates into its organization other Rites, so long as they're not heretical, thus within the catholic church you have the Latin rite, the Eastern Rites, etc etc, the heirarchy didn't demand that everyone conform to the same right, so long as they weren't preaching what they beleived was heresey (like gnosticism or unitarianism, etc etc). And even today the church is ecumenical; non-catholic christians 'go to heaven', and even non-christians, like the Jews, go to heaven, etc etc. So we can't really say, in that sense, that its domineering or intolerant either.

So why the problem with the RCC?

[edit on 19-7-2006 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by Shortness
Do catholics really ONLY worship the triune God as you put it Nygdan?

This is silly.

Yes, the only god that catholics worship is God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Consider this bible text

How about you go around asking catholics who god is?

how does this justify the many images of people kneeling and "venerating" Pope John Paul II or Benedict?

Its justified because no one worships the pope as god.

How does it justify catholics vacationing to St. Peter's Basilica and kissing the worn out foot of his statue?

Because they don't beleive he is a god.

How does that justify people adorning and kissing the pope's hand?

Because they don't beleive he is a god.

I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

When a catholic says he is worshipping the pope, then you have a case, until then, you've got nothing. Catholics don't worship the pope, mary, or anyone but God; the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

if an angel of God refuses to be kneeled down, how much MORE should a pope refuse anyone who falls down at their feet when meeting the pope?

Why should the pope tell people to not be respectful? They aren't worshiping him.

"no that's not worshiping, thats venerating" anyone else think thats doublespeak?

Doublespeak would be telling catholics that they beleive the pope is god.

Come on, kissing the feet of a statue isn't idolatry?

Since its not worshiped as a god, yeah, its not idolatry.

Someone's idea of idolatry must be pretty bogged down to consider these acts NOT idolotrous.

Do you know what an idol even is?

So when the greeks have thier athena statues and artemis statues on the pedastal, and they come and pray to/ask them to pray for us or whatever, how is it any different when catholics go to mary statues or pope statues and kneel down and pray to it, or give flowers to it, or something of that nature?

Because they don't worship it as god, whereas the greeks did.

If i kneel down on my knees, and ask Jesus to forgive me of my sins... wouldn't you consider that's me praying to Jesus right?

I wouldn't say that someone's interpretations of another person's actions means that they know what is in their hearts and minds. Catholics worship the Triune god as the one and only god, period. They don't worship the pope, mary, the saints, or anything else.

Now, if i kneel down on my knees, and ask Mary to pray for me.... wouldn't that mean i'm praying to mary to pray for me? "nuh-uh, we're not praying to mary, we're asking her to pray for us" Round and round we go.

We only go in circles because non-catholics insist on telling catholics that they beleive in some other god than god.

i mean just look at some of the images and tell me that isn't idolatry?

None of that is idolatry. Catholics do not worship statues as gods, and don't worship any god other than the triune god.

thou shalt not bow down thyself to them[...]you're not suppose to bow down to any statue, to any pope, regardless if you aren't worshipping the statue or pope. God does not want you kneeling before it or bowing down to it. WHY???

God clearly isn't concerned with the physical act of kneeling. To suggest otherwise is silly. What kind of god do you beleive in? Not the god of the bible, not jesus, if you think something as absurd as kneeling determines what a person has faith in. Catholics beleive in jesus christ as saviour, the son of the triune god, not statues.

And yet with all these biblical references, i'll be called an anticatholic bigot.

Since you're spreading lies about catholicism in an attempt to defame them, yep, thats pretty bigoted. Whats the highest form of bigotry, saying that another person worships the devil, 'those jews, they have horns and worhsip the devil, muslims, they worship satan', etc etc. Catholics worship God, not the saints, popes, mary, or anything else.

You're kidding right? If you think God did not care about the act of kneeling down as a form of worship, why did Shadrach, Mishach, and Abednego refused to kneel down before an idol, EVEN IF THEY DIDN't WORSHIP THEM?

Daniel 3: 10Thou, O king, hast made a decree, that every man that shall hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, shall fall down and worship the golden image:
11And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth, that he should be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.

Would it be okay for shadrach and company to kneel down but in thier hearts and minds they know its just a statue, and they could of pretended they were worshipping the statue that way they won't be threatened with the fiery furnace?

You said that me suggesting that God thinks kneeling before a statue is silly, SO why didn't shadrach, mishach, or abednego not do it?

And look at Exodus 20:5 again. Notice how God seperates bowing down to them, AND serving them. The 2 are exclusive, doing one or the other is a sin to God, because kneeling before a statue is a form of worship, whether YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT.

You reasoning makes no sense, especially if you consider the story of the 3 Jews. They could of easily used your argument "Because they don't worship it as god" and kneel before the statue and it would of been okay. But they simply refused to do even that.

If i, an anticatholic bigot (according to Nydgan) got on me knees and worshipped a mary statue knowing in my mind and heart that its just a statue, how would it be ANY different from shadrach, mishach and abednego to bow down and worship the image Nebuchadnezzar had set up knowing in thier hearts and minds it was meaningless? And why was it so important that the Holy Spirit would include this story in the bible?

Wouldn't God of understood thier hearts, but the 3 Jews refused to do it anyways?

i'll telll you why... Thus saith the Lord, "THOU SHALT NOT BOW DOWN TO THEM"

Nydgan, i'm sure if you read about the history of the Papacy, you'd notice some very idolatrous quotes made by the Holy See

edit: No catholic i know have said, i worship the pope, or i worship mary. But that's the way the devil operates. It's funny how before the devil had to force people ppl to do those things, but now he has made it into a way that it makes it seem okay to do it, even if it contradicts the word of God.

I'll say it again, God said "thou shalt not bow down to them" this we have to take literally bowing down, becuase the next word, which is NOR, implies that the literal act of kneeling God condemns. Thus, angels refused it, peter refused it, and the 3 Jews refused it.



[edit on 19-7-2006 by Shortness]

Originally posted by Shortness
You're kidding right? If you think God did not care about the act of kneeling down as a form of worship, why did Shadrach, Mishach, and Abednego refused to kneel down before an idol, EVEN IF THEY DIDN't WORSHIP THEM?

So, let me get this straight. The only way to the father is through jesus, and you must beleive in jesus as saviour to save your soul. BUT, if you kneel in front of a statue, even if you don't beleive in it as a god, and only accept jesus as saviour, you're doomed?

The jews didn't kneel before the statue because they didn't beleive in it and were supersitious. THe old testament has prohibitions against kneeling before statues because thats how peopel worshiped their gods in those times.

Its pretty odd to say that the saving power of jesus is defenseless and weak against inanimate statues that people kneel in front of.

They could of easily used your argument "Because they don't worship it as god" and kneel before the statue and it would of been okay. But they simply refused to do even that.

They also don't eat cheeseburgers and all other kinds of silly things.

And why was it so important that the Holy Spirit would include this story in the bible?

The jews included it in their collection of stories, because in their time thats how people worshipped.

No catholic i know have said, i worship the pope, or i worship mary.

Then this should've been your first hint that catholics don't worship the pope or mary.

But that's the way the devil operates.

Again, rather odd to say that the devil is more powerful than jesus or god. That a person can have absolute faith in jesus as saviour, and still be snatched be the devil for kissing the pope's ring or praying before a statue of a saint.

the devil does work ways to make things look like its ok, to just bend the rules a litttle. even though it is said NOT to do those things, no matter how little that scale be.
and yes i think shortness know what an idol is. an idol is not necessarily made out of gold. and it does not matter if it was written because thats the way it was in the old testament. there was nothing in the new testament making it any different. such as in the old testament it was " an eye for an eye" and in the new testament it is " turn the other cheek" .

im out
-mindtrip02

oh yeah , and good point shortness

[edit on 19-7-2006 by mindtrip02]

Originally posted by mindtrip02
does any one else think that its odd, that the one religion that is supposed to be the " right religion" and the " one true religion"...

Um...don't they all claim that?

the only religions that i know of that actually say that, is the catholics and the mormons.

[edit on 19-7-2006 by mindtrip02]

Originally posted by Nygdan

So, let me get this straight. The only way to the father is through jesus, and you must beleive in jesus as saviour to save your soul. BUT, if you kneel in front of a statue, even if you don't beleive in it as a god, and only accept jesus as saviour, you're doomed?

Why are you questioning me about it? You should question God about it, its HIS LAW, thou shalt not bow down to them. PERIOD.

The jews didn't kneel before the statue because they didn't beleive in it and were supersitious. THe old testament has prohibitions against kneeling before statues because thats how peopel worshiped their gods in those times.

The jews didn't kneel before them BECAUSE IT WAS IN THE 10 COMMANDMENTS! Something Catholics are suppose to follow? Where are you getting superstituious from?

Its pretty odd to say that the saving power of jesus is defenseless and weak against inanimate statues that people kneel in front of.

How exactly is Jesus suppose to save us when we can't follow a commandment, DO NOW BOW DOWN TO THEM.

They also don't eat cheeseburgers and all other kinds of silly things.

cheeseburgers didn't exist back then.

The jews included it in their collection of stories, because in their time thats how people worshipped.

Or maybe he used it as an example so that we would follow in it? Don't kneel to images people erect up? Like mary statues?

Then this should've been your first hint that catholics don't worship the pope or mary.

Really? because i was under the impression that they were doing it out of ignorance.

Again, rather odd to say that the devil is more powerful than jesus or god. That a person can have absolute faith in jesus as saviour, and still be snatched be the devil for kissing the pope's ring or praying before a statue of a saint.

If their doing it in ignorance, the bible saids God winks at it. But if they are exposed to bible proof and make a conscious decision to continue in praying to mary and dead saints after being exposed to the truth, than God can't saved them from it.

How can any honest christian, reading the bible texts saying Peter refused to be kneeled before, an angel refusing to being kneeled before, and continue kneeling before the pope or a statue no less and not see the error in it?

You said the pope is not god? Have you not read some of the vatican's writings? lord god the pope? Another christ on earth? supreme ruler of earth?

We the Archbishops and Bishops of Ireland, prostrate at the feet of your Holiness, humbly offer you our warmest congratulations on the occasion of the Golden Jubilee of your ordination to the priesthood… our thoughts go back to that great event fifty years ago by which your Holiness was taken from amongst men and appointed for men in the things that pertain to God, was made a minister of Christ and a dispenser of His mysteries, received power over the real and mystical body of our Saviour and became a mediator between God and man - another Christ." Address to Pope Pius Xll in 1949

of course i can give you a whole plethora of quotes from popes and church fathers claiming blasphemous things, but i'll leave that to your imagination.

You already know when the catholic church was ruler of the world it had a shady history of having corrupt popes, making blashemous claims. The thing is, they have never renounced those claims. The church never errs, it is infallible. So they say.

yea there are many religions though that mimick the same characteristics so in the end it is best to give omage to Christ and God(if you believe in this pariticular religion) yourself in your own time and MEAN IT. On another note,
mormons and catholicism have (probably others also) have been linked to satanist and cultist practices. (Google it and you'll be amazed.) The priest who were sexually assualted the children have been know to be satanist in disguise because it is a requirement to go through catholicism before you can join the church of satan. ..Partially Quoting from Interview with an Ex-Vampire.

[edit on 19-7-2006 by Revelmonk]

I'm impressed and drawn in to this thread. And it's very interesting.

I just would like to introduce the following people who are equipped with doctors and masters in theology as a whole. Maybe some of the discussions will provide further explanation.

Scott Hahn
Stephen Ray
Alex Jones (not the conspiracy theorist)

Books like:
Summa Theologica or Summa of the Summa by Peter kreeft (These books are not easy to read)


Now my insights:
I observed a lot of people the way they express their faith. And I admired them and sometimes jealous about it.

When I was growing up in the third world being the youngest in the family of 10, my mother was very pious in her faith. And that faith served as a strength in her everyday life specially sending us all to school and universities with their meager income in fish retail. If it were not for that faith and values, what could be the alternative? Divorce? Separation? Under Welfare? Nowadays, a little discomfort, we lose patience. Misplacing a key or cell phone, losing a job, result in psychological and violent attitude not to mention cussing.

My point is, no matter how much expression of faith people have, as long as it's not violent and imposing, it has to be respected and not to be argued or challenged. There are times that Catholics impressed me with their humility and obedience in their church.

Originally posted by mindtrip02
the only religions that i know of that actually say that, is the catholics and the mormons.

I don't know about the mormons, but the RCC is an ecumenical movement, you don't need to be catholic to be saved, nor even christian. So please get your facts straight.

shortness
You should question God about it, its HIS LAW, thou shalt not bow down to them. PERIOD

Thou shalt not eat shrimp either, and you're supposed to stone hookers to death, but I don't think either are particularly relevant to salvation. You're entitled to your opinion.

The jews didn't kneel before them BECAUSE IT WAS IN THE 10 COMMANDMENTS!

The 10c wants people to not worship other gods. According to your interpretation, an actor who beleives in jesus christ as lord and saviour, playing the part of a pagan kneeling before a statue, is not saved.
Absurd.

How exactly is Jesus suppose to save us when we can't follow a commandment, DO NOW BOW DOWN TO THEM.

Again, its absurd to suggest that jesus can't save a person because they've bent their legs on the ground in front of a statue. Catholics do not worship any god other than god, they beleive in jesus, therefore, according to jesus, they're saved.

cheeseburgers didn't exist back then.

The point is, the jews did a lot of silly things that they felt were required of them for salvation, such as keeping kosher, snipping off parts of their penis, not burning incense, etc etc.

Or maybe he used it as an example so that we would follow in it?

Doubtful, more likely the point was that people should have faith in god and not worship pagan gods.

because i was under the impression that they were doing it out of ignorance/quote]
The very suggestion is nonsense. People kneel before kings, that doesn't mean that they worship that king. They kneel in church, and in front of them are statues, presists, laymen, etc, they're not worshiping anything other than god.

But if they are exposed to bible proof and make a conscious decision to continue in praying to mary and dead saints after being exposed to the truth, than God can't saved them from it.

The bible says no such thing. It requires that people worship god, and only god. Thats what catholics do.

You said the pope is not god?

Correct, the pope is not god. No catholic in the world beleives that the pope is god.

of course i can give you a whole plethora of quotes from popes and church fathers claiming blasphemous things,

Who gives a damn?

revelmonk
mormons and catholicism have (probably others also) have been linked to satanist and cultist practices.

Christians engage in satanic acts and cult practices, ok, good, so we're clear on that. Christians are evil, accoording to you.

is a requirement to go through catholicism before you can join the church of satan

This, in fact, is a lie.


[edit on 24-7-2006 by Nygdan]

actually there is churches that started before catholicism/
have you ever heard of judiasm?
christianity started at the time of jesus. they were jesus' followers.
read up on it.thats where the name CHRISTians came from.. as in the name of CHRIST.

im out
-mindtrip02

Originally posted by mindtrip02
does any one else think that its odd, that the one religion that is supposed to be the " right religion" and the " one true religion" is the most dominating and hypocritical religion there is???here are just some of the things i came up on my own, maybe you guys could help me out with some other ones i havent thought of yet...

1.it says directly in the bible, do not chant ... what do the catholics do walking down there halls in their churches. THEY CHANT. and repeatedly do it...
2.now this one is a commandment... " thou shalt not worship any gods before me"
and what do they do.. they call the pope " the father" and bow down to him as if he was god.
3. another commandment... " thou shalt not worship and graven idols"
now it seems to me that all those statues in the catholic churches seem to be " idols" they bow to them, they pray to them, they even adorn them with wreathes.
4. in the bible is also says to not care of for earthly possesions. when you see the pope and the men in the papacy, what are they wearing? jewelry everywhere, gold adornments on their gowns and gold crowns... now isnt that the reason that jesus tore down the temple in the first place, he said , ( not exact) , this is not what the church is about. the flaunt money and place in society, it is about worshiping god, the father.

to worship god it can be in your own home.. because religion and spirit of such things as god is in your heart...

those are the only ones that i could think of right now. help me out if you could

im out
-mindtrip02

[edit on 14-7-2006 by mindtrip02]

[edit on 14-7-2006 by mindtrip02]

Mod Edit: cap title

[edit on 17-7-2006 by kinglizard]

Apparently you are not Catholic, nor have you apparently been to a Catholic service, nor do you AT ALL understand the Catholic faith. Also it should be noted that if Catholicism is wrong then all protestant religions are wrong as they simply copy the Catholics changing little things here and there, but most split away for personal power reasons, like say running your own church. Protestants also use the same faulty bible that Catholics formed themselves.

Just a question for the poster, why do you hate Catholics so much, you apparently do not want any good light shed on the church for any reason and will not see it, you see only what your hatred is showing you. Did a Catholic wrong you in the past? Traumatize you in some way? Do you have a fear of statue worshiping chanters?? Don't take the bible so literally and you might live a much happier, less anti-catholic hate filled life.