"Stronger China poses no threat to other nations"

Well, i live in SHenyang, Lioaning Province, the subject of the article referenced.

Central Government is promoting northeast china, including lioaning, for business expansion, social improvement, etc. Its a big province, but i travel a bit here and the rest of China. Its great and highly recommended to anyone thinking about traveling to China.
Disagree with the theme of the article, growing pains are being confused with discontent. I talk to people in the streets constantly, in business districts and in projects/poor economic areas. Poorer people wish change had come earlier, so they could participate in the new economy. richer people wish change occurs faster, so they can expand their business quicker. If anything people want change to occur faster. The government wants to manage the speed of change, to manage inflation and currency to avoid pitfalls as in Russia or bubbles as in USA.

are there demonstrations..? yep, just like there are demonstrations in the USA, for the same issues that cause people to demonstrate in the states.

Originally posted by toolman


Well, i live in SHenyang, Lioaning Province, the subject of the article referenced.

Central Government is promoting northeast china, including lioaning, for business expansion, social improvement, etc. Its a big province, but i travel a bit here and the rest of China. Its great and highly recommended to anyone thinking about traveling to China.
Disagree with the theme of the article, growing pains are being confused with discontent. I talk to people in the streets constantly, in business districts and in projects/poor economic areas. Poorer people wish change had come earlier, so they could participate in the new economy. richer people wish change occurs faster, so they can expand their business quicker. If anything people want change to occur faster. The government wants to manage the speed of change, to manage inflation and currency to avoid pitfalls as in Russia or bubbles as in USA.

are there demonstrations..? yep, just like there are demonstrations in the USA, for the same issues that cause people to demonstrate in the states.

Toolman, you and I both know most demonstrations in the US are due to social issues, such as ABORTION OR GAY MARRIAGE OR ANTI-WAR and now Illegal immigration. You don't see 74,000 of them either in a year, never did, not even a fraction of that. And we have 300,000 million people here.

I think China can be compared to how America was in the later 19th-early 20th century. They have a lot of low wage workers. The workers are not happy, I don't really care what you say. It is common sense toolman. Nobody is happy in a low paying factory job, when your boss is getting paid more, and you can be replaced with a snap of a finger, and are living in poverty. Do you think unions will be able to form? I doubt it. Is there going to be forms of social security, medicare, welfare? How would China pay for that when they have 1.3 billion people. How is China going to support the hundreds of millions of elderly people?

Especially if their economic growth slows, and they have problems with energy, which is bound to happen.

China has made HUGE achievements, which should be admired. But people who make it seem like everything in China is peachy and fabulous, and their economy is far superior to everyone else's, are just downright lying.

[edit on 9-7-2006 by RetinoidReceptor]

74,000 demonstrations... are you kidding..? thats over 200 per day....


give me a break. if you want to find out how china is doing, then come visit instead of falling for MSM BS. get on the plane and find out things for yourself. You can travel to any city you want, ask anyone anything you want. and see how china is.

Originally posted by toolman


74,000 demonstrations... are you kidding..? thats over 200 per day....


give me a break. if you want to find out how china is doing, then come visit instead of falling for MSM BS. get on the plane and find out things for yourself. You can travel to any city you want, ask anyone anything you want. and see how china is.

Popular unrest is now a common feature of China's political landscape, with more than 74,000 reported cases of unrest in 2005, according to an official count. The same economy that has grown by nearly 10 percent a year for the past twenty-five years has also become a perilous source of discontent.
www.thenation.com...

I guess you didn't read the article . Don't debate it with me, debate it with the Council on Foreign Relations they are the ones who posted it.
www.cfr.org

That first post was hardcore Disinformation, its to fool the public into thinking china isnt a threat at all, which is complete bull# first of all. China doesnt play by the rules, they make alot of money on the black market, and they steal alot of technology and make copys of it. Just go back and look for CHINESE SPY caught, you see they have our newest anti ship technology and anti air technology. Clinton was handing out that # for free back in 1999, and panama was bought by them as a cream top filling. I been researching the Chinese military and threat longer then you idiots even knew about it. I was critizied for saying they are our greatest threat we face today, that was around 9/11/01 to. Now i see the nets flooded with half assed china is a threat blogs and threads and news articals. You forget that have more ICBM's that can strike us then we have since we dismantled our titans.

Originally posted by trIckz_R_fO_kIdz
That first post was hardcore Disinformation, its to fool the public into thinking china isnt a threat at all, which is complete bull# first of all. China doesnt play by the rules, they make alot of money on the black market, and they steal alot of technology and make copys of it. Just go back and look for CHINESE SPY caught, you see they have our newest anti ship technology and anti air technology. Clinton was handing out that # for free back in 1999, and panama was bought by them as a cream top filling. I been researching the Chinese military and threat longer then you idiots even knew about it. I was critizied for saying they are our greatest threat we face today, that was around 9/11/01 to. Now i see the nets flooded with half assed china is a threat blogs and threads and news articals. You forget that have more ICBM's that can strike us then we have since we dismantled our titans.

Totally agree.

1) I live in the City referred in the report. I drive every day, over much of the city for business. There are NOT protests and demonstrations as the report details. That is false and intended to excite people like yourself

2) China is expanding quickly, this causes growing pains for certain sections of society. this is not to be confused with social unrest.

3) Russia is, and always will be the largest threat to the United States. If our government had any brains it would form closer ties with China.

4) if you are not willing to visit China for yourself, then stop already. you are selectively choosing what to believe to support trash promoted by the CFR.

"trIckz_R_fO_kIdz" I agree with most of what you said but they do not have more ICBM’s/warheads/nuclear weapons/ than the US, the majority of their missile force is made up of short range tactical missiles. Here is an estimate from the 2006 Report to Congress on Chinese Military Power (PDF) which I recommend reading.





As you can see the US nuclear missile force is larger, more sophisticated, and more survivable due to the fact that we have multiple delivery systems. However the gap is closing.

Now, Chinas military is expanding in terms of force and it’s modernizing very quickly, if it was truly defensive then it would not need some of the systems that it’s building. Their short term goal is to increase their force projection capabilities so they can expand in the PACRIM region and eventually long term to the entire Asia region. However to do this they need a very high tech and capable military one which they do not yet have, as such it may appear to be defensive oriented because for the time being they are simply waiting. They know they cannot yet take on the US military and its allies in the Pacific region and win.

[edit on 10-7-2006 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by toolman


1) I live in the City referred in the report. I drive every day, over much of the city for business. There are NOT protests and demonstrations as the report details. That is false and intended to excite people like yourself

2) China is expanding quickly, this causes growing pains for certain sections of society. this is not to be confused with social unrest.

3) Russia is, and always will be the largest threat to the United States. If our government had any brains it would form closer ties with China.

4) if you are not willing to visit China for yourself, then stop already. you are selectively choosing what to believe to support trash promoted by the CFR.

1) Like I said, take it up with the Council on Foreign Relations, they posted it.

2) Toolman, you can spout about how great things are for the people of China are, but that doesn't make it so.

3) Russia and China are the threats now. The US government would be even stupider to develop relations with any rogue communist wannabe superpower nations such as China. China seeks to be THE superpower.

4) I have been to Beijing, and it seemed fine to me. China overall was a little too crowded for me. I was a foreign traveler, with a tour guide. So I cannot really judge on my experiences. Not to mention I only went for a few days.

Toolman, I really don't know why you are such a cheerleader for China. Nobody is criticising the Chinese people, but the Chinese government.

www.theepochtimes.com...

Maybe you may actually fully read through this. Or perhaps it is just some propaganda to make people like myself excited...If you go back the whole 20 pages, it really doesn't make China seem 100% wonderful with a cherry on top as you portray it.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
As you can see the US nuclear missile force is larger, more sophisticated, and more survivable due to the fact that we have multiple delivery systems. However the gap is closing.

[edit on 10-7-2006 by WestPoint23]

Hey thanks for the extra info, and I meant more nuclear bombs that are usable actually, since ours are really getting old and shelf life is about to expire on alot of them, but the majority of our are in subs. You are right though, but that gap is closing really fast, if we dont do anything about it we are in deep water. Specailly when Russia is getting all this high tech missle technology that blows ours out of the water. Like that one that can change directions at 1 mph to mach 4, craziest thing on the planet, and probally the fastest man made object to fly in the lower atmosphere. At least that what I remember.

Thanks.

Originally posted by toolman
74,000 demonstrations... are you kidding..? thats over 200 per day....

give me a break. if you want to find out how china is doing, then come visit instead of falling for MSM BS. get on the plane and find out things for yourself. You can travel to any city you want, ask anyone anything you want. and see how china is.

I think your working for some angency in China, because ATS was blocked awhile back due to the forum discussing this same topic. They banned OPF because it had Chinese Military units listed in a game.

Its not the city I am talking abotu either, its the 700 million other chinese that dont live in the citys. Of course 80% of your population lives in South xeon. Liaoning Province is a freaking tourist location anyways, no way in hell they going to have public exacutions on TV in that part of China. Its like Moscow as to Beijing during the cold war.

[edit on 10-7-2006 by trIckz_R_fO_kIdz]

Originally posted by trIckz_R_fO_kIdz
…and I meant more nuclear bombs that are usable actually, since ours are really getting old and shelf life is about to expire on alot of them, but the majority of our are in subs.

Well, US nuclear weapons will be replaced in the near future because they are getting old (though their reliably is probably second to none) and because we need newer weapons to fit the current missile technology and current strategy.

Now, currently the US still maintains the second largest stockpile of Nuclear Weapons (second only to Russia) but we can deliver more nuclear weapons at any given time than any other country in the world. Check out the links provided below for more information.

NOTE: Due to the nature of these weapons governments are not too open when it comes to specific stats hence we have some conflicting information, but the overall picture is clear.

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
Link 4

Originally posted by trIckz_R_fO_kIdz
Like that one that can change directions at 1 mph to mach 4, craziest thing on the planet, and probally the fastest man made object to fly in the lower atmosphere. At least that what I remember.

Are you referring to the Topol-M? If so then you should know that the only unique thing about it is its ability to maneuver in the terminal phase, its designers have claimed other things but we wont get into those. And as of now there is no reason to believe China has this type of capability.

[edit on 10-7-2006 by WestPoint23]

I own a commodities supply company in China.

Lioaning province is NOT a tourist destination. Your thinking of Beijing and Shanghai. I dont run into caucasions in my day to day business, see about 2-3 per month running around the city for various reasons.

the article you referred too specifically mentions this area, thats why i responded. They are full of it, and have no idea what they are talking about. On my trips to other destinations the only protest i have seen were two tenants of a office building complaining about the landlord.
Harldy a revolution in the making.

again, if you wish to know the status of China, go visit yourself.

Originally posted by marg6043
China is a very fast developing country, one that US is depending for economic reasons.

China is taking advantage of the needs of the US financially . . .

China doesn't need an army any more to defit the mighty US. . .

They can give the blow economically.

This is the new China and the new type of war.

From what I have seen China's miltiary developement I disagree with you. You say they don't need an army to defeat the U.S., they still have an army right now and they are modernizing it.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Well, US nuclear weapons will be replaced in the near future because they are getting old

Are you referring to the Topol-M?

[edit on 10-7-2006 by WestPoint23]

Hey thanks man, I did not know we had planes to make more nukes, since I could sworn we were binded by a post cold war law put in place by the UN or something to not make anymore nukes and actually decrease the amount we have. I just hope they make ultra high grade over med grade nukes, so we dont get to much fall out when they go off.

The Topol-M is nuts to. I know Russia has other crazy designs left over from the cold war they been working on to.

Oh also toolman and on protest in china, you cant protest in china they arrest you, and even people go to the petition offices.

so, if you protest in CHina they arrest you, but there are 74,000 protests per year.

you cannot have it both ways. the misinformation regarding China is spectacular. If the posts on this thread are true, half the nation is in Jail for protesting.

If you do not live here, dont pretend to know what occurs here. There are very hard working people trying to build a strong Nation, just as the United States did years ago.

Where are the cries of injustice to Indigenous Americans..?? where are the threads asking for reperations to the African American..?? it was ok to murder anyone that stood in the way of American Manifest Destiny, but heaven forbid any other nation threaten the Ego of America.

This is WHY china will become a strong Nation. they do not get lost in ego and terror threats, do not need to instill fear into their citizens. China is letting loose a billion people to create business, educate themselves, and build a stronger Country.
You are scared, and you should be. The USA is cutting education and social care, and selling the country to the highest bidder.

Toolman, you never ever say anything bad about China and make it seem like their government is the best thing since water formed on the earth. Seriously, why not post some facts about how great this government is? That China is NOT a threat to other nations? That there is NOT internal strife in China? No all you say is that the articles I post are wrong posted by the CFR, and that I have no idea what I am talking about because I never went to China (which I said I have before to Beijing). No all you say is how bad America is off, and how great China is, which makes me wonder .

You DO know after all, that China's economy is not growing faster than other countries such as Taiwan & Vietnam (I am not sure about India). And also they need a fast growth in economy to keep up military spending and employment. Of course you never outline negatives, you only outline the positives.

Seriously, I have even said it is admirable with how they brought their country up so far. But that does NOT mean they are not a threat. And their human rights, is horrible, you cannot even compare them to American human rights. The Chinese government practices organ harvesting and genocide. So please spare me all the bs on how Europeans back in the day killed Native Americans, and we in turn fought against them. Makes no sense to reference that, we are talking about the 21st century not 18th and early-mid 19th century

Corporations need to find a new source of cheap labor other than China. We [as in the West] are feeding China, and in turn they are building up their military to where they are becoming a threat to the West and Asian allies.

I can only speak from personal experience. Have never been treated badly, have always been respected and extended every courtesy from taxi drivers and people on streets to governers of provinces and up.
I travel extensively ( up to 1500 kilometers per week) to various destinations, the only demonstration were two tenants protesting against a landlord. I dont speak chinese yet get what i need and want, becuase people extend a willingness to communicate.

China has issues, i never stated otherwise. But the manner in which people speak of China is ignorant.
They will become an economic powerhouse, probably surpass the USA within 12-15 years. An economy the size of theirs expanding at 6-10% per year is a massive amount of wealth being created and transferred. China builds cash reserves at about the same rate the USA creates debt. why blame china for wise economic policy?

America Had its day in the sun. What did we do with it??? we invaded Vietnam, we cannot broker peace in the middle east because we pamper Israel, we have the greatest access to raw power in History, so we build bigger bombs and better weapons. History will not look kindly on the wasted opportunities America Squandered.
Maybe China can do better.

Retinoid, you obviously have never been to China and communicated with the locals... because most will tell you the luxuries they are living in today compared to the times of the parents or grandparents.

Ridiculous... people who take the strongest stance against China know so little of China. They read an article and believe that is exactly how the avg. Chinese lives.

Seriously though, visit the mainland... visit the cities - Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen... go around and mingle with the natives and I'll assure you your viewpoint will change drastically.

Ridiculous how many of us ATSers read a few articles on China and think they know everything about China.

But that does NOT mean they are not a threat.

Let me check... Only a few years back, the United States ILLEGALLY invaded and occupied a nation because they suspected the Iraqi's had "WMDs." Now, according to polls, the majority of the people around the world believe that that decision was more of a global security THREAT than the nuclear incident with Iran. According to polls, the United States is the second MOST NEGATIVELY viewed nation on earth... only Iran beats the US in this.

I find it HILLARIOUS how Americans can point a finger at China when talking about threats to global peace while completely ignoring their own actions.






[edit on 12-7-2006 by k4rupt]

Originally posted by k4rupt
Retinoid, you obviously have never been to China and communicated with the locals... because most will tell you the luxuries they are living in today compared to the times of the parents or grandparents.

Ridiculous... people who take the strongest stance against China know so little of China. They read an article and believe that is exactly how the avg. Chinese lives.

Seriously though, visit the mainland... visit the cities - Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen... go around and mingle with the natives and I'll assure you your viewpoint will change drastically.

Ridiculous how many of us ATSers read a few articles on China and think they know everything about China.

But that does NOT mean they are not a threat.

Let me check... Only a few years back, the United States ILLEGALLY invaded and occupied a nation because they suspected the Iraqi's had "WMDs." Now, according to polls, the majority of the people around the world believe that that decision was more of a global security THREAT than the nuclear incident with Iran. According to polls, the United States is the second MOST NEGATIVELY viewed nation on earth... only Iran beats the US in this.

I find it HILLARIOUS how Americans can point a finger at China when talking about threats to global peace while completely ignoring their own actions.






[edit on 12-7-2006 by k4rupt]

Actually k4rupt it is obvious that I have been to China because I said I went to Beijing. Granted I didn't go there forever, and I never said that it was dark and gloomy there lol, I actually said it was pretty nice there for the most part, of course there are impoverished areas though. Maybe you should read all my posts

I am posting articles and sites, yet toolman and now you are saying it is false. Well why doesn't the Chinese government do something about all this horrible disinformation? I mean, it is posted on the Council on Foreign Relations, which is not some push over news source and posts world news everywhere. Why would they just blatantly lie all about China? How mean

Also, yes America didn't find WMD's, and the government lied to everyone. But it really wasn't illegal considering there were other things Saddam did that broke the treaty he signed. Not that I am saying it was anything to go to war over, but, it wasn't necessarily "illegal".

And wow, people in the world thinks America is a larger threat to security than other countries? Maybe it is because the world's media (including America's) only report what AMERICA is doing wrong. Did ya ever think of that? I mean if people in Europe think America is a greater threat than China is then it MUST be true. It is funny though, when I talk to Europeans online about China, I talk about their organ harvesting, persecution of religions, and genocides in Tibet and they don't KNOW anything about that. Hmm something is odd about that

Of course you and toolman can cheerlead for the Chinese government all you want, and say "Those news stories are not true". Like I said, take it up with the Council on Foreign Relations, sheesh