MIG-21 vs Mirage III

reply to post by Iraqi_Fighter_Pilot


Are you saying that you were, or are currently an Iraqi pilot?

Originally posted by Iraqi_Fighter_Pilot
did you know we used to inflitrate jordanian airspace and the jordianians scarmble f-16s in game of cat and mouse in the 1992-1998 not a single time they can catch us..
cheers

Oh yes.. this has been tried and tested elsewhere as well.
What altitude did you guys fly at? How long did these enagements last?

A scrambling F-16 has no chance whatsoever against a high(+60000ft) supersonic MiG-25 intruder unless they have the time to get into position.

You didnt answer my question..
Did you ever have any foreign flight instructors?

above 2.5 mach is retsricted as it means an engine on the mig/25 RB although we have heard from our russian intructers that mach 3.2 has been acheived..the flight envelope restrics us to mach 2.5 ..yes we had forign instructors,,engineers and scientists

nice..

Were at you at Tikrit anytime? Did you train under Soviet, Indian or Pakistani instructors?
I know a lot of Indian Air Force pilots who instructed in Baghdad and Tikrit from 1986-88.

true for other types,, mig-21/23/27 and su-20/22 for mig-25 su-24 strickly soviet instructors..no i was based at al-taqaddum and talil Air bases,, when i was a student at tkrit only..

i made captain in the iraqi airforce, i was part of a 4 ship MIG-25RB interceptor team protectinng the border with the northern fly zone based at al-taqadumm air base IOC, scrambled on a clear summer night(july 13 1995 20:00) to a low flying target heading south/south east towards baghdad, target was at 4000 feet doing 180 knots, i came in at 1500 feet at 400knots, i thought it was an american drone, i identify it it was flashing bright orange and green light nothing i ever saw,,, i was oerderd to engage it, my mig-25RB was armed with 2 R-60/AA 8 AND 2 R-23/AA-7 i fired 2 missiles at the target which made a 90 degree turn nothing i have seen before and ther was bright flash that blinded me and filled the cockpit, i was low so i went to full afterburn and pulled up,, the target was not seen on my rader or the controler in baghdad...my government then claimed a kill on a US done,,the US said nothing has been shot down,,it was over water( lake northwest of baghdad called thirthar) no wreckage found,,,,any US radar or pilot out there who may have seen anything? i am still invistigating that encounter


[edit on 13-1-2008 by Iraqi_Fighter_Pilot]

[edit on 13-1-2008 by Iraqi_Fighter_Pilot]

If you and the controller didn't see it on your radar, how did you know it's altitude and airspeed? And doing a 400 knot intercept on a slow moving target that has an uncertain position is pretty impressive, especially seeing as you obviously got a firing solution. Of the two missiles you fired, what were they? AA-7s, AA-8s, or one of each?

Tikrit was laid to waste after GW-I
When were you stationed there? You said you trained in L-29?
I think Tikrit had L-39s.

Originally posted by tomcat ha
Well i think the mig21 is more manuverable.

Who told you mig21 is more maneuverable?

Originally posted by planeman
The MiG-21 is more agile

Do you have any reasons to put on this?

Before we estimate dogfight capability between two fighters, we'd better to calculate the most important specifications of them at first. Wing load for turn capability and TW rate for climb rate.

MirageIII
empty weight: 7050kg
thrust: 6200 kg
wing area: 35 sm
MiG-21
EW: is far different between each type, so we take the most common type MF : 6000kg
thrust 6600kg
wing area: 23sm

Then we get TW rate of MirageII is approxi 0.88
of MiG-21 is 1.1

WL of MirageIII is 201kg/sm
of MiG21 is approxi to 261

According to these data, we can reckon out climb rate of MiG-21 could be better than MirageIII a little but on turn rate aspect, MirageIII will be much superior than MiG-21
Is that true? yes
I've already known that Climb rate of MirageIII less than MiG-21 approxi to 20m/s, but max turn rate of MirageIII go ahead of MiG-21 much more.
previous one is 30degree/s but MiG-21 only is 16degree/s.

Yes, MirageIII is tailless aircraft, so take-off capability is not so good as MiG-21 as a conventional layout, but we talk about air combat, which means the precondition is the both of two side's aircraft has already being in air. The fact is that combat profile of MiG-21 more like an intercepter unlike we always considered is a fighter. Russian also admited capability of MiG-21 in mid or lower air even inferior than MiG-19.
On the other hand, French also admitted, even Mirage F-1, which air-combat capability can not approach MirageIII, so MirageF.1 finally to be an attacker not a pure fighter.

We transcendentally think MiG-21 must outdo MirageIII without any fundamental evidence but interms of quantity of production, if this is true, most of aircraft made in NATO will being rubbish because their QoP never reached what Soviet made.

i was trained on the L-29 then mig-21um,, the albatros 39 came later

baghdad control gave me heading altitute and speed,,,because we heard that the US sends armed drones i choose to intercept low and fast,,,target was on my radar and that of the controller as well,,,thanks

Sorry, just to clarify, it was on your radar? Your previous post says it wasn't.

And the missiles you fired?

i clearly stated on my radar as well as the contollers radar,,,i fired 2 APHID R-60 short range missles (Infra red guided) as i was at close range to the target.

It has been made known to me that both L-29s and L-39s were stationed at Tikrit at the same time(circa 1986-1988). Apparently they operated on separate runways. The L-29s used the smaller one while the L-39s used the larger one?

However the base I'm looking at outside Tikrit(I could only find one) has only one noticeable runway.
That too with precision bomb craters along the runway at regular intervals! Who claims that? USAF? USN? RAF?
Anyways; its a sorry waste now..

hey iraqi-fighter pilot..
what happened? US Govt got your tongue?
I have tons of questions for you!

Did you fly MiG-25 in the first gulf war?
Do you know of some local iraqi information about the Lt Col Speicher incident?
You know the one where Lt. Col Speicher flying an F-18 was shot down by a MiG25? Is it true? Do you know the MiG 25 pilot who did that?

Also can you give me the name of the MiG 21 pilot who you say shot down a Iranian F-14A in the Iran-Iraq 8 year war?
I think there are reports of Iraqi MiG23s shooting down Iranian F-14As too?
Can you give me names of the MiG23 pilots?
This info is not available anywhere on the internet!!

If you truely are who you say who you are, then maybe you can shed some light on the above questions?

Originally posted by Iraqi_Fighter_Pilot
i clearly stated on my radar as well as the contollers radar,,,i fired 2 APHID R-60 short range missles (Infra red guided) as i was at close range to the target.

I think you are making it up as you go along

On topic... I wonder what the maintenance burden of the Mig and the Mirage were. Soviet aircraft were notoriously maintenance heavy according to many sources I have read - not having been there personally you understand.

Regards

reply to post by paraphi


[qote] I think you are making it up as you go along

That was flat out disrespectful, and not a constructive way to actually figure anything out.

On topic... I wonder what the maintenance burden of the Mig and the Mirage were. Soviet aircraft were notoriously maintenance heavy according to many sources I have read - not having been there personally you understand.

What are the sources for heavy maintenance of Soviet aircraft?

Yes..
I think there is much to learn from this poster. I just wonder where's he's gone off too.

That is why I asked him questions that one cannot find answers to on the net. Questions that will shed much light on true soviet a/c capability in the Gulf War: a concept that has been hidden from us by media propaganda, and other reasons.

Besides, I doubt that there is any way hell anyone would know about incursions into Jordanian airspace by Iraqi MiG-25s in the 90s. The only parties that would be privy to that info would be the Jordanians(and hence some US personnel), and the Iraqis.
Plus his knowledge on Tikrit and other bits like the trainers over there etc is quite accurate. So it seems this guy knows what he is talking about.

I'm not saying that we're definitely speaking to the pilot himself, but its definitely someone with niche info, and that is invaluable.

Iraqi_Figher_Pilot,
Please respond to my questions above.

Thanks,

DD3


[edit on 19-1-2008 by Daedalus3]

Ok, if you had it on radar, why didn't you take AA-7 shots? What range did you first get hits on the target? What was your offset? Environmentals?

For your AA-8 shots, what was the geometry? Rmax1 or Rmax2 shots? Did you have tally of the target? Did the SOC give you weapons free, or were you free to engage yourself?

what would you do if u had a slow moving target in your sights at clos range with the Aphid locked on..choose the other one? are you a pilot?