MIG-21 vs Mirage III

Two of the greatest and most versatile warplanes ever developed. IMO these craft a pretty much equal who would win in a dogfight would depend on the pilot and simple luck as much as the aircraft itself. But I am partial to the Mirage myself its continued development into the Mirage 2000.

Move this to the aviation section, It mght get more hits there

Very evenly mayched.

I would imagine that it would largely come down to each individual pilot's skill level.

Both fine aircraft.

The aviation forum is for aerospace projects only. I know that recently someone was able to post a thread entitled Sukhoi or MIG.

Sukhoi or Mig?

I posted a thread entitled MIG or Sukhoi

And as you can see was my thread was promptly locked

Well i think the mig21 is more manuverable. The mirage can carry a larger load iirc. I guess for bvr the mirage is better but for dogfights the mig wins. Still its mostly about the pilots as has been proved by Israeli pilots.

The MiG-21 is more agile but in combat between the two it often came off worse because the Mirage III were piloted by better trained Israeli pilots with better (untypical of Mirage) AAMs. The Mirage had a generally better main radar but both are subject to upgrade in the modern world so that's a non-factor.

Overall I'd give the dege to the MiG all factors being equal. Which they never are.

[edit on 24-6-2006 by planeman]

Another flashpoint could be PAF Mirage IIIs against IAF MiG 21s. However the MiG21s are undergoing major upgrades and the Mirage IIIs are being replaced by the FC-1s

Mig-21


Mig-29


Mig-29 Russian Watch


Mig-31


Su-30


Su-47 (S-37) Berkut 5th generation multipurpose fighter

yeah sexy planes but this is about mirage vs mig21.

I love MODERN Russian military aircraft more then any other military aircraft, but the Mig-21 is a PIECE OF CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hate old planes!!!Mig-21 is a piece of crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I agree that the Mig-21 may not look like much but its performance was outstanding(especially when placed in the hands of a skilled pilot). But yeah overall I think Russia(i.e Soviet Union)consistently developed the best looking aircraft.

Well the MiG-21 never won no beauty contests that's for sure.

But it was a nice aircraft, I was never truly a fan of it though, more modern jets attracted me.

Shattered OUT...

Danwild6,

The Mirage will always have but one big 'bat turn' in it. But it will have slightly better fuel specifics and external tanking along with a massively superior view out the cockpit and fair LCOSS performance. The key for it is to keep the fight low and as fast as possible.

OTOH, the MiG is one of those beasts of many many humps, literally. Early jets right on up through the PF and I think early MF had serious fuel, center of gravity and of course controls problems which effectively made them fight a lot slower, lower, shorter, than might have otherwise been best for a dogfight resolution (5 minutes/3 circles at max A/B and all that nonsense).

This derives from the fact that (other than Soviet backwardness in aero design) they were never intended to BE fighters but rather as the next step in bomber intercept which means that they have one good PDI snapup in them and could then retire quickly over a friendly IADS to a nearby base.

It should also be noted that excepting the very earliest F, the MiG's all round view has always been abysmal and the Spin Scan (duuuuh RP-21 anyway) is a mess for lockon and tracking in typical 'dogfight' through-the-roof conditions with only about 10` of elevation and 30 or so of az. Again, a legacy of the Soviet _intercept_ system, this relegates the Fishbed to more or less a GCI steered flying missile launcher.

At high altitude, where the Q factor wasn't quite as bad and the MiG's planform and engine gave it some edges over systems like the 104 and pure deltas, it was a very hard platform to beat. If it had the gas to play. Lower down, it was all about acceleration into and out of a corner speed that was rarely above 300 knots unless. Of course the Mirage's ATAR sucked goat errrr, milk so bad that it quicily bled to and through this range but the French jet was a little bit better harmonized and actually has a decent view in all but dead astern (never saw data for the early Cyrano sets so I don't know about this aspect of things...).

Later on, the odds changed as the late MF and Bis (now Bison and Lancer) upgrades meant a near 1:1 T/Wr and much improved Jay Bird and Missile Systems, along with a gun+centerline as standard. With Archer or Adder and an Elta or Fiar radar system, the MiG-21 is probably just about the best throwaway missileer you can have these days, ironically, provided you _don't_ slow down to hassle things out.

The Mirage got some augments as well but with the role-switch inhernt to the V (and the debacle over the Nesher) it was more or less too little too late as the Mirage F-1 got all the improvements to the BVR capabilities while things like the IIING FBW and canard system were really too much icing for the cake with the line shutting down in favor of the 2000. Hybrid systems like the Pantera and Cheetah show where things might have gone but also highlight limited internal volume and a lot of weight gain without a power up like the Kfir-2000 and it's J79 brought to the table (obviously, this is a gut buster of a heavy engine as well but the ATAR is _that bad_, even in the 9K50).

In either case, the best way to kill a Fishbed is on the ground after it's had it's quarter hour fling. And the best way to kill a Mirage is to sucker it into a layered SAM Trap/Flak Lane type bryar patch where it eats trashfire and guideds until the pilots run out of moves, altitude and energy.

1967 and the Attrition War basically proved this.

Since smart wars are never won by the element lead but the wingman, it's more or less nocks neeks on airframes as neither jet has enough of a margin to kill both and neither jet (in the periods they directly faced each other) had the missile systems to leverage as a pure missile fighter.

>>
Two of the greatest and most versatile warplanes ever developed. IMO these craft a pretty much equal who would win in a dogfight would depend on the pilot and simple luck as much as the aircraft itself. But I am partial to the Mirage myself its continued development into the Mirage 2000.
>>

I wouldn't say so. They did a lot of things of course but none terribly well about the only role exception being recce where both had some capability. IMO, they were rather more the 109 and Spitfires of their era with a lot of performance compared to anything else and a decent mix of handling traits betrayed at some very basic levels by the need to design a stable airframe in a configuration which a pilot could handle in the days before fly by wire and relaxed static stability.

They were -sexy jets- that combined the best of Robert Shaws opposed angles/energy and missiles/guns air combat precepts in a way that highlighted the pilot's skill as an envelope optimizer rather than a button pressing monkey. But here too, wars are not won between pilots. They are won by the people they kill on the ground and the people who shoot up to compromise their 'purist' notions of combat as a game of skill rather than attrition.


KPl.

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thank you,,very nice thread, i am russian trained and we in the IRAF used to fly both migs and mirage,, i fly the mig-25RB/P started with the mig-21MF and when we used to have tactical excersises with the boys which fly the mirages IRAF MIRAGE F-1BQ we won every time with the mig-21,,known during the iran iraq war a mig-21 shot down an iranian F-14A...thanks

^^
Hi,

You seem to have had an interesting experience there..
I have a couple of questions...

When were you in Iraq and where were you stationed?
Did you train the Iraqis only on Operational Combat Jets or did you train them on trainer aircraft as well?
If so which trainers?

reply to post by Daedalus3

i am an iraqi combat pilot,,8th squadron based in al-taqaddum IOS BASE WEST of baghdad i took part in the iran iraq war since 1986-88 and i meant i trained in russia
your 2nd question is L-29 traner then the mig-21UM 2 seater
thanks


[edit on 6-1-2008 by Iraqi_Fighter_Pilot]

reply to post by Iraqi_Fighter_Pilot



Oh!..
Even better!
I think we here at ATS can learn a lot from you!

So did you ever train under foreign flight instructor(s) in Iraq?
You didn't fly in the first Gulf War against the Americans?

Originally posted by Iraqi_Fighter_Pilot
reply to post by Daedalus3

 

i am an iraqi combat pilot,,8th squadron based in al-taqaddum IOS BASE WEST of baghdad i took part in the iran iraq war since 1986-88 and i meant i trained in russia
your 2nd question is L-29 traner then the mig-21UM 2 seater
thanks

Welcome to the forum, I think it's great to have your knowledge available to us. I hope you stick around.

If you had to compare your experiences on the Mig 25 to the Mig 21, how would you compare them as combat aircraft, and to what extent does the endurance (range) of each type affect your opinion of the aircraft.

Thanks

Retseh

[edit on 8-1-2008 by Retseh]

thanks,,nice thread, the mig-21 is a basic fighter, in my openion the best! but its an old one lacks the radar the avionics,,put the mig 21 against an fa-18 both empty with guns only who do you think will win? i know who will win...
the mig 25 is a diffrent story all together,,very powerful and roomy cockpit,,my fav. fighter of all time,,
did you know we used to inflitrate jordanian airspace and the jordianians scarmble f-16s in game of cat and mouse in the 1992-1998 not a single time they can catch us..if you fly the mig 25 your untouchable,,again what lacks is a powerful radar and early warning.
cheers

Sorry to derail a little, but I'm just curious, what velocity restrictions did you have on the MiG-25, and what other aircraft have you been deployed against?

Shattered OUT...