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posted on May, 26 2006 @ 08:22 AM
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Hi Earthlism

What do you know of the Tiananmen Square pro-democracy movement a few years ago and how did it effect the government and the people?

I worked for a British company some years ago and they had some engineered products manufactured in China and sold them on to the USA military and no-one knew. They made big bucks from that. They were paid less than a pound to manufacture and the USA paid upwards of £30 a unit! Do you see any evidence of major innovations in China or will the economy depend on being the industrial workhouse for the west?

Its just that I was wondering if there are still attempts to prevent intellectual freedom / education and whether the control of the people, equals control of ideas, equals control of innovation, equals lack of ideas?

I dont mean this in an insulting way. Its just that you seem to have had an education and I am wondering how it is taught. Yes in the UK education can be a bit formal but there is always the maverick / aloof genius. Are these type of people taken out of the equation?

Thanks




posted on May, 26 2006 @ 10:15 AM
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posted by Earthlism

I found this site a month ago. It's excellent . . My initial aim is to study English.
[Edited by Don W]



E, we have a “free” tv program on CSpan2, which is a service provided by the monopolistic cable tv industry. “Free” in the sense we don’t pay for it “up front.” But it is a good show.

This weekend on Monday, May 29 at 4:30 am, EDT, an author will discuss his book. You can watch and hear this program on the internet. I note Shanghai is 12 hours ahead of NYC. See www.timeanddate.com...

See the following: “Oracle Bones: A Journey Between China's Past and Present” by Peter Hessler. Mr Hessler discusses his book "Oracle Bones" which compares modern day China to its past. Mr. Hessler derived the title "Oracle Bones," from an archaeological site in China where the earliest form of writing was found inscribed on shells and bones. During this discussion, Mr. Hessler reads letters from young students who migrated from the countryside to the cities and the new boom towns in China.

Author’s Bio: Peter Hessler is a native of Columbia, Missouri and currently writes for The New Yorker and for National Geographic. Mr. Hessler has also written for the Boston Globe, Wall Street Journal and the Atlantic Monthly. He graduated from Princeton and Oxford with degrees in English. Currently, Mr Hessler lives in Beijing
www.booktv.org...


[edit on 5/26/2006 by donwhite]



posted on May, 26 2006 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by asmilesnail
hi,Earthlism:
how much do you know about the corruption of the central government? the "taizitang "?i heard a lot about the leaders' corrupted life?is it truth?

and also, is there any trend that things are getting changed about Falung kong after Jiangzhemin quite the stage ?what is the attitude of President Hujingtao?

the Three Gorge Project is as useful as the government's saying?i knew there were thousands of hundred people had to give up their hometown. and it gave the environment huge destructive impact.


Oh, it's not a secret, or say, it's a well-known secret. No matter what views people held, They all admitted corruption was the main problem in our country.

There is a secret. Why most of the stateowned enterprise were under deficit, and most of them turned to make profit when they owned by private. The reason is they were making profit all along, just some people were minded to produce the losses false impression, so they could put some money into their own pocket and paid worker lower salary and applied to country for more allowance.

Most of people knew it, but they just can't manage it.

It's a hurt to see the corruption classes sending their children out of the country and transfered bags of money to their foreign private accounts. "taizidang" is came from that.

For this reason, I have to complain about the Canada and American government, Why they protected the criminals such as kingpin Lai and won't return them until they are assured not to be executed.

I think it's a wrong decision which hurts us too.

Supporting Falong kong is another serious mistake.

I wonder how many people supporting Falong kong have ever exercised it, did they really know the essential of it?

I had ever practiced Qigong for several years. At that time, when I saw the books about Falong kong in one day, I concluded immediately it's the most absurd and most demagogic Qigong I had ever seen. There were a series of absurd Qigong created in that period. They were not created occasionally. There were historical and psychological causation.

I am sure Falong kong is valueless, it's absolutely a cheat.

I think foreign people support them because they regarded them as oppressed group. But in my opinion, Dictator is harmful to our country, and Falong kong is harmful to our country too.

I describe the situation as "an illness caused another illness".

Communist Party will never change their attitude for another reason: they took Falong kong as traitor.

The Three Gorge Project issues is just like you said. There are always different opinions about it. I don't know whether it is reasonable, and we only wait to see the later development.

[edit on 26-5-2006 by Earthlism]



posted on May, 26 2006 @ 11:22 AM
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Hopefully you are getting enough of our news to know that we are also fighting rampant
corruption in our leadership.

Wealth breeds corruption and this has no bounds.

At least 50% of the U.S. population believes that this administration is destroying
all the good we worked so hard to achieve here and across the globe.

Cover-ups, lies, distortion of truth, bribes and corruption have resulted in political unrest, and large scale disgust with what our noble leadership has done to our country.

Many many people here believe that Bush Cheney Rumsfeld and company belong in prison
and we have no problem voicing that opionion.

Fortunately we can now communicate one on one all over the world without accepting
the "official" view of what we are told is true.

Freedom of information is vital to global peace.

The corporate owned media is not a reliable source of information, but there is progress
with continued public pressure to expose the truth.

Hopefully your fellow countrymen know that the majority of Americans only want to go on with their lives in peace and harmony.



posted on May, 26 2006 @ 12:07 PM
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posted by Earthlism



posted by asmilesnail

Hi, Earthlism: do you know about the corruption of the central government? The "taizitang "? Is there any trend that things are getting changed? What is the attitude of President Hu?


It's no secret. They admit corruption is the main problem in our country. Why most of the state owned enterprises were under deficit, and most of them turned to make profit when they owned by private. Most of people knew it, but they just can't change it. It's a hurt to see the corruption classes sending their children out of the country and transfer bags of money to their foreign private accounts.

I have to complain about Canada and American governments. Why do they protected the criminals such as kingpin Lai and won't return them until they are assured not to be executed. I think it's a wrong decision which hurts us too. I describe the situation as "an illness caused another illness". The Three Gorge Project is like you said. There are always different opinions about it. I don't know whether it is reasonable and we only must wait to see the later developments.
[Edited by Don W]


Just one example, E. Werner von Braun, War Two German Nazi engineer who employed forced labor in the German V2 program and was directly responsible for the deaths of perhaps 15,000 men, was brought to the US, made an American citizen, put to work for the US Army and ultimately was in charge of the early US rocket program that ended in 1969 with a round trip to the Moon using the Saturn 5.

He and his team of ex-Nazi engineers were highly honored, highly paid and died here with respect. So where is the justice? Who answered for the 1000s of dead workers? For the 1000s of dead Brits caused by the V2? There is no honor among thieves.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, we labeled the Russian economic system a “command economy.” This is a form of economy where there is no feedback from the bottom. Production quotas are ordered from the top. One example I have heard and assume it is true. Moscow planners determined to build a new state of the art shoe plant. They chose a medium to small city, Nikolayevsk, 1,200 miles south of Moscow.

The plant was to produce 5 million pairs of shoes per year, mostly made out of leather. One cow hide or horse hide can provide leather for 10 pairs of shoes. To supply the factory, you need 500,000 cows or horses a year. The Moscow factory planners did not provide for a single “new” cow or horse. The factory manager sent glowing reports to Moscow claiming to be meeting production goals. In 1991, he claimed to be shipping over 1 million pairs of shoes a year for which achievement he was awarded a Medal of Lenin. The truth was, the factory never produced more than 200,000 pairs of shoes in a year and stood 80% unused, to rust away. That is a command economy.

More later.



[edit on 5/26/2006 by donwhite]



posted on May, 26 2006 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by something smells
Hi Earthlism

What do you know of the Tiananmen Square pro-democracy movement a few years ago and how did it effect the government and the people?

I worked for a British company some years ago and they had some engineered products manufactured in China and sold them on to the USA military and no-one knew. They made big bucks from that. They were paid less than a pound to manufacture and the USA paid upwards of £30 a unit! Do you see any evidence of major innovations in China or will the economy depend on being the industrial workhouse for the west?

Its just that I was wondering if there are still attempts to prevent intellectual freedom / education and whether the control of the people, equals control of ideas, equals control of innovation, equals lack of ideas?

I dont mean this in an insulting way. Its just that you seem to have had an education and I am wondering how it is taught. Yes in the UK education can be a bit formal but there is always the maverick / aloof genius. Are these type of people taken out of the equation?

Thanks


I was a primary scholar when it happened. All the TV shows were the soldiers wounded and killed by citizens and they denied they had ever killed people in Square. From then on, all materials about it were deleted and prohibited to talk about. We couldn't accurately evaluate the meaning of it till now.

Several weeks ago, I saw the articles " WSJ: We Think, They Sweat ", and get some knowlodge about what you described.

It is the only choice for China to being the industrial workhouse for the west, because my country have most population in the world. Only being industrial workhouse can bring maximum job opporunity, which is specially suitable for the uneducated person. This is a strategic means.

On the other hand, workhouse in China stood by "small profits by quick turnover", and there are additional influences in favor of people too. Accompanied by the Workhouse industry blooming, there are more and more competitive industry entering into China.

Government intended to twist the modern history and cover the problem existed. It did play a role. On ther other hand, Busied with pursuing self interests and lack of knowlodge to manage the country is another reason. They set up a bad example and put people into survival situation, so society were full of money worship.

One of my friend, a Doctor, ever told me that there were almost no genuine research in Chinese campus.

But there are many many people knew the situation and the truth. It's easy to realize the reality. It's hard to change.

I don't think Chinese are lack of genius, but there ain't suitable soil for them to grow, because they are all engaged in resolving survival problem.

As for normal intellectual, I think some chinese have proved they were very excellent if they were in proper environment.



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 02:09 AM
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Hello again, Earthlism,

Thank you for answering my past questions. I would like to ask you further about the Qing dynasty. I had also heard about the "Han" people. Who are they?

Again, I send you best wishes.


--Ceci



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 07:37 AM
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Hi Earthlism, and welcome to the boards =)

I think the Chinese people are a very good people. You work hard for yourselves and your families. You help others, in as much as you are able to do.

I have a question about religion. From what I understand, the communist government only allows religion that supports the government. There is a movie called "China Cry" about a woman who seeks to be free from this, and has been seperated from her husband and put into prison because they believe in God. It is a powerful story of love, hurt, and joy. My question is: how have you seen religion being hurt in your country?

As for me, I believe we are all here in this life as part of a journey, to learn to love all others. As part of this, I believe the following things: That God exists and He is real. That He loves us with a love so strong that we cannot understand. That Jesus was placed here on Earth to show us His love.

Here is my prayer for you: I pray that God would bless you greatly, and all of your family. That He would watch over you and protect you and be with you. And that you would know God's love, which is greater than all the money and power in the world.

Most sincerely and respectfully yours,
G. Houtchens
7th grade science teacher

PS Please be careful and don't let the government watchers get you

[edit on 27-5-2006 by Houtchens]



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 08:56 AM
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Earthism, I am of the opinion that Formosa had a separate culture from that of mainland China. I understand that for a very long time, China exercised some degree of influence over Formosa, due in part to the vast differences in their area, populations and economies. The degree of control varied over time. The relationship between China and Formosa might be compared to the European concept of a “self-governing” province. I understand Japan took Formosa from China in 1897. The Japanese occupation was what we call benign. That is, not too intrusive. Formosa had no industry. It was entirely an agricultural economy. Formosa served as one of Japan’s main sources of food from 1897 to 1945.

After WW2 ended, Formosa was returned to China by the United States. The Formosans were not consulted. However, due to the Revolution led by Mao Zedong and already many years in the making, America’s allies, the Nationalist under Chiang Kai-shek’s Kuomintang Party, had little time to restore Chinese rule on Formosa.

In 1949, the Nationalists were forced off the mainland and took refuge on Formosa. I once thought the number of Nationalists soldiers moved to Formosa totaled 400,000. I also thought about twice that number of their families and others came to Formosa at the same time. Altogether, about 1.2 million mainlanders. I was under the impression the Formosans numbered about 1.5 to 2 million in 1949.

When was the name of the island changed to Taiwan?

What is the significance of that name change?



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 10:38 AM
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Earthlism, your english is excellent! You should really be proud of that. It is better than alot of people here.

I know when I tried to learn Cantonese the language was different in every way, very confusing. So your level of English is a huge achievement.

Steve



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by donwhite
When was the name of the island changed to Taiwan?

What is the significance of that name change?


It is normal that they changed the name to a Chinese name, the name of "Ilha Formosa" or "beautiful island" was given by the Portuguese, the first Europeans to reach that part of the globe.

That is why there is also an island called "Pescadores", meaning "Fishermen".



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 01:01 PM
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Earthism
I think China’s first experience with Western religions was around the 13th century when a Jesuit priest stole the secret of silk and some worms and carried them to Italy, I presume to give to the Bishop of Rome. This is similar to the experience of the people of India whose first encounter also was with a Jesuit priest who stole the method of multi-color printing on cotton cloth fabric. Again, I suppose to present this “secret” process to the Bishop of Rome. For historical perspective, it was mainly the Franciscans and Dominicans who accompanied Columbus and the other Spanish Conquistadores who looted the New World of tons of gold. And witnessed if not encouraged the deaths of millions of natives.

In the 19th century, America sent Protestant missionaries to China, mainly Presbyterians (of John Knox) and Methodists (of John Wesley). Here we see a new country - the United States was born in 1775 - and a new religion - Protestantism was born in 1517 - deigning to go to one of the two oldest countries on earth, China, founded in 1,500 BC, with one of the oldest and best ethical systems anywhere, after Confucius, and purporting to tell them the “good news” how to be “saved” and where to send their money. Arrogant? Or ignorant?

It is not as if Christianity had a lot going for it. After all, it was the Christian Crusaders that launched the war on Islam which may be about to be re-played today if the Bush-ites have their way. Those same good Christians, by the bye, spent one whole crusade killing, raping, looting and burning another Christian city, Constantinople. These same Christians then waged the 100 Year’s War which was followed by the 30 Year’s War. In the meantime, the Christians burned 1000s of people at the stake who disagreed with them over such issues as the Eucharist vis a vis transubstantiation and in 1491, began the false accusation that the “Jews were Christ killers” and deserved to die, a litany that was played out in the Holocaust of the 1930s-1940s by Christians. Who promptly denied any responsibility.

Well it is nice of people today to proclaim Jesus as a man of peace. It is too bad his adherents don’t follow that path.

I am looking into Confucius as a proven follow-on to a failed Christianity.


[edit on 5/27/2006 by donwhite]



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 01:26 PM
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posted by ArMaP

They changed the name to a Chinese name. The name of "Ilha Formosa" or "beautiful island" was given by the Portuguese, the first Europeans to reach that part of the globe. That is why there is also an island called "Pescadores", meaning "Fishermen".
[Edited by Don W]


Thanks, ArMaP, I didn’t know that. Are the Madeira Islands the originators of Madeira wine? And, what is the significance of the Canary Islands? I feel dumb asking if the bird of that name inhabits those islands.



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 01:44 PM
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Welcome Earthlism.

Well thought out answers to interesting questions.

I have a small question about the quality of Chinese machine tools.

Some of the Chinese machine tools, granted, small ones for a home machine shop are lacking in quality as well as accuracy.

Some of China's industry manufactures things that call for a high level of accurate machine work and it does not appear that Chinese tools exported to America would do the job these precision oriented Chinese industries require.
One such industry would be aircraft manufacturing.

I'm wondering if there are several quality/accuracy levels of machine tools in China and the US market only receives the cheapest ones.

It seems China would do better to export the higher quality tools and build a reputation for quality rather than receive disparaging remarks for the cheaper made and less accurate tools which in the end leads to fewer sales.

I realize the higher quality tools would cost more money, but far better to buy a tool that's actually useful than one that ends it's days in the bottom of a drawer.



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite

Earthism
I think China’s first experience with Western religions was around the 13th century when a Jesuit priest stole the secret of silk and some worms and carried them to Italy, I presume to give to the Bishop of Rome. This is similar to the experience of the people of India whose first encounter also was with a Jesuit priest who stole the method of multi-color printing on cotton cloth fabric. Again, I suppose to present this “secret” process to the Bishop of Rome. For historical perspective, it was mainly the Franciscans and Dominicans who accompanied Columbus and the other Spanish Conquistadores who looted the New World of tons of gold. And witnessed if not encouraged the deaths of millions of natives.

In the 19th century, America sent Protestant missionaries to China, mainly Presbyterians (of John Knox) and Methodists (of John Wesley). Here we see a new country - the United States was born in 1775 - and a new religion - Protestantism was born in 1517 - deigning to go to one of the two oldest countries on earth, China, founded in 1,500 BC, with one of the oldest and best ethical systems anywhere, after Confucius, and purporting to tell them the “good news” how to be “saved” and where to send their money. Arrogant? Or ignorant?

It is not as if Christianity had a lot going for it. After all, it was the Christian Crusaders that launched the war on Islam which may be about to be re-played today if the Bush-ites have their way. Those same good Christians, by the bye, spent one whole crusade killing, raping, looting and burning another Christian city, Constantinople. These same Christians then waged the 100 Year’s War which was followed by the 30 Year’s War. In the meantime, the Christians burned 1000s of people at the stake who disagreed with them over such issues as the Eucharist vis a vis transubstantiation and in 1491, began the false accusation that the “Jews were Christ killers” and deserved to die, a litany that was played out in the Holocaust of the 1930s-1940s by Christians. Who promptly denied any responsibility.

Well it is nice of people today to proclaim Jesus as a man of peace. It is too bad his adherents don’t follow that path.

I am looking into Confucius as a proven follow-on to a failed Christianity.


[edit on 5/27/2006 by donwhite]


Hey Don,

I won't deny your viewpoint although truth often is in the eye of the beholder. Am I correct in thinking that your post may have been meant as an insult to me?

I don't care about money and I don't tell people where to spend it. I agree with you that the people who waged war and killed innocents whether in the Catholic church or in government did horrible things the same way the Japanese did when they captured Chinese prisoners of war. I served my country in the US Coast Guard because it is their primary mission to save lives through search and rescue, not kill them.

I think that your brief history lesson was interesting in that it shows how positions of power often seem to be a magnet for those who are corrupt, wicked or incompetent. I don't think that Bush's war in Iraq is a Christian one, although many in the middle east call it that because Bush calls himself Christian. Do you follow my line of reasoning here?

I believe that when one is a true follower of Christ, they do follow his path. I do, as poor an example as I may be. I bless you in your search for truth.

Sincerely,
G.Houtchens

China may have religious persecution, but it is not the only country where it exists.



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 02:55 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite
Are the Madeira Islands the originators of Madeira wine? And, what is the significance of the Canary Islands? I feel dumb asking if the bird of that name inhabits those islands.


Yes, Madeira wine has that name because is from the Madeira Island, the largest of the archipelago of the same name and the first island discovered by the Portuguese in the 1418 and colonised after 1432.

The canary got its name from the Canary Islands, from where it comes.

The Canary Islands are Spanish, the Madeira Islands are Portuguese.



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 03:38 PM
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posted by Houtchens


posted by donwhite

Earthism
I think China’s first experience with Western religions was around the 13th century . . I am looking into Confucius as a proven follow-on to a failed Christianity.


Hey Don, I won't deny your viewpoint although truth often is in the eye of the beholder. Am I correct in thinking that your post may have been meant as an insult to me? [Edited by Don W]



No. As you accept my viewpoint, so I must also accord you the same courtesy. Further, I do not know you, so it cannot be meant as an insult to you.




I don't care about money and I don't tell people where to spend it. I agree with you that the people who waged war and killed innocents . . did horrible things the same way the Japanese did when they captured Chinese prisoners of war. I served my country in the US Coast Guard because it is their primary mission to save lives through search and rescue, not kill them.



The highest rank (E7) in my family in War 2 was achieved by a Conscientious Objector. The US put those fellows into the Medical Corps. Front line duty but unarmed. Hmm? I have only respect and high regard for the USCG. Louisville, my home, was the site of the last inland CG station, on the Ohio River. I think it was closed in the 1950s or 1960s. A CPO was in command.


I think that your brief history lesson was interesting in that it shows how positions of power often seem to be a magnet for those who are corrupt, wicked or incompetent. I don't think that Bush's war in Iraq is a Christian one, although many in the Middle East call it that because Bush calls himself Christian. Do you follow my line of reasoning here?


Yes. OTOH, I would have done the Nine Eleven Event as a re-run of the 1993 event. A job for the FBI. It is my opinion that Geo W co-opted Nine Eleven as a political ploy for electoral purposes. War trumps Economy.

Geo W is very close very often in calling his WOT a Christian jihad. Very close. He has used the term “crusade” a time or two. I don’t care what religion the president has so long as he acts on it on Sunday. The rest of the week, I want him to leave his religion at home and not wear it on his sleeve as a badge. I offer Jimmy Carter as my example.


I believe that when one is a true follower of Christ, they do follow his path. I do, as poor an example as I may be. I bless you in your search for truth. Sincerely, G.Houtchens China may have religious persecution, but it is not the only country where it exists.


I think Christianity was “invented” by Emperor Constantine and evolved over the next 2-3 centuries into what we have today. I am not sure Jesus ever lived. I offer the Jewish inhabitants of Judea in the 132-135 AD Simon bar Kochva Revolt as my proof. Bar Kochva was hailed by the Jewish people as the Messiah. It follows the people who lived in Jerusalem did not regard Jesus as such. I have read the applicable parts of Josephus and I can say as a non-expert, it looks to me as if the writings that purport to mention Jesus were doctored. Added later.

I’m sorry to carry the bad news, but there is little to none evidence to support the essential tenents of modern day Christianity. I do not mean this to apply to you personally. But, as a religious system, Christianity is surely no better than Islam or any other large religion.

As some Catholics complain, why are there 27,000 children dying every day when the Vatican has several billion dollars worth of art that could be sold? So who cares about the poor? The hungry? The homeless? And just look at the pope. At his inauguration, did he look more like a Roman emperor or more like Jesus? I’ll wager the vestments he wore cost in the six figures. Jesus did it all with a robe, a loin cloth and sandals. Hmm? The pope wore a crown of gold and jewels, Jesus wore a crown of thorns. Hmm? Don’t forget Oral Roberts, him of 800 foot cross fame. On that let me add, anytime a ministry is inherited by the son, isn’t that a sure indication who is the real owner? I smell fraud.


[edit on 5/27/2006 by donwhite]



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 05:56 PM
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Not to get too far afield, the islands were named by the Romans and so bore their Latin name: insulae canariae, or "island of dogs.


Minimal information here: www.socialstudiesforkids.com...



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 06:06 PM
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posted by Desert Dawg

Not to get too far afield, the islands were named by the Romans and so bore their Latin name: insulae canariae, or "island of dogs.



Could it be "canary" also means yellow?



[edit on 5/27/2006 by donwhite]



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 07:34 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite

posted by Desert Dawg

Not to get too far afield, the islands were named by the Romans and so bore their Latin name: insulae canariae, or "island of dogs.



Could it be "canary" also means yellow?



[edit on 5/27/2006 by donwhite]



Yellow dog democrat?
I'm taking it that you're jesting.

I don't know if canary means yellow, I do know there is a shade of yellow called canary.
I'm pretty sure you know that as well.

The Romans named the islands as they did due to the many packs of dogs running loose.

Just a bit of trivia tossed into the mix....





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